I honestly think you're spot on here, Thirza Fallen, considering...
God does nothing to stop innocent children from shot and killed in gang related shootings.
God does nothing to stop innocent children from dying of cancer and other deadly diseases.
God does nothing to stop innocent children from starving to death and dying in desolate poverty.
God does nothing to stop innocent children from being abused, and murdered by their parent(s) or someone else.
God does nothing to stop innocent children from being molested, and raped, by Catholic priests, and other pedophiles.
God did nothing to stop millions of innocent Jewish children from being gassed to death by the Nazis in concentration camps.
Considering these examples, is it reasonable for us, or anyone else, to believe that God actually cares about unborn children or any children for that matter? Yes, there are scriptures stating that God knows us before we were born, but there are scriptures about God commanding the Israelites to kill children and infants of heathen nations. God killed King David and Bathsheba's firstborn son.
So no God doesn’t have to answer to you, you have to answer and give an account to Him and you will. God isn’t immoral, He is a perfect judge, He is Holy, and all His judgements are just. You’ll see and understand when you see Him face to face. Read the end of Job.
He’s not accountable to you and in the end He will prove He is righteous and just. But if you’re saying God is immoral because of the reasons you listed then how can you be anything but pro-life and speak up for the innocent children in the womb?
Marriage has been redefined many times, even during the Bible times. How many OT men have multiple wives and that's okay?
Religious liberty to the religious right means Christian liberty. The mention of any gods should never had been in government. Christians have been shown favoritism erroneously in the past. No more. The religious right likes teaching abstinence in school, even though 95% of folks, including 80% of evangelical type of Christians, have sex before marriage.
I really don't understand what your point is in context of why there are some Christians (not all) who voted for Trump. For that matter, there were non-Christians who voted for Trump
This is a tough topic to articulate sometimes, but these details help considerably! I understand your perspective even if we may disagree on some of the details. Either way, your position is a perfectly reasonable one.
This is a complicated web and I don't think we can even scratch the surface here. But I will say that framing it as "on the grounds that it's a life thats not worth living" seeks to intentionally demonize the opposition without really understanding where the argument comes from. My theory is that these are more common rationalizations:
"I would not be a good parent."
"I do not have the resources to provide for this child properly."
"My partner is abusive and I don't want to subject a child to that."
"I am overwhelmed and there aren't resources to help me."
These are logical conclusions, not emotional ones. Here is the rub: most anti-abortionists (is that a word?) are also in support of reducing financial safety nets for those in poverty. That venn diagram is pretty much two circles on top of each other. The rate of adoption is also pathetically low. Roughly ~400,000 in foster care with the annual adoption rate hovering around 135,000 respectively. If an individual is in support of prohibiting abortion, they should also be in favor if raising safety nets, federal and state funds being allocated to foster care systems, and additional financial investment in families in poverty. This is rarely the case. In short, in my experience, those who want abortions to stop are the same people who want to reduce the support to the child/family after the child is born.
I will pass on the abortion/euthanasia portion of this topic because I don't know enough to comment.
Yes, it is a very complicated issue and certainly not a one-size-fits-all in trying to unravel it. I certainly don't agree with "demonizing" a group. My sisters have had multiple abortions so it isn't that I don't understand, don't love them or called them to be "my own family of demons" All are people who, for whatever reason, made a very difficult decision. Incidentally, both are pro-life today.
I would agree with you that it is a counter-productive position to advocate a position of "pro-life" and then shut down safety nets. I'm not sure what percentage of people that would encompass. Sometimes the position of some get's brushed onto the majority.
We have friends that have adopted, whether from foster care or outright adoption. The process is so costly and there are so many hurdles (I assume they were created in the beginning for the safety of the child) that it is now really for those who have means. Can you imagine if we streamlined it so that the average person could also adopt? Would more people adopt if it were less complicated?
How many would need to be adopted if we filled 2,000,000 waiting parents?
(Obviously it isn't that simple ether. Some are waiting for babies and don't want a grown child - I understand that).
I suppose that there will always be more need than provision. But what if the one we said "I will abort because I don't know if they will be adopted" was the Bill Gate's provision of tomorrow? There are countless impactful people that came from orphanages that never got adopted. I'm not sure that is a good reason to abort babies.
"I do not have the resources to provide for this child properly." - I raised 3 children, also raised my brother, also raised my wife's two sisters. I started when I was earning about $300/ week. Difficult? You betcha. Had to squeeze blood out of a turnip? LOL I guess I did. Did my children know we didn't have anything? Not until they went to a 6 figure income home of a friend. Is resources really the problem? Not really IMV. The resources for raising great children was not money. For us it was love and the resources of God's love.
I think that is a human construct of what "providing" really is.
I could do others but I'm not sure how long a thread we want
Regardless, as you said, it isn't an easy subject but hopefully you and I can solve it.
Hmm, is the idea here that the decision to have an abortion might reflect more selfish behavioral patterns? I have more comments on this topic but I want to make sure we are on the same page.
Sorry if my thoughts didn't align perfectly with the quoted material, we are covering a lot of ground! Keep em comin!
I think, as you mentioned, it isn't simple. It is highly complicated with multiple variations.
I suppose I picked the easiest one as stated by the quote. Let me see if I can simplify it better. If life isn't important to protect, aren't we creating an insensitive generation? If we reduce a living being to a clump of cells with the only difference that we add just a little more value inside the womb than outside... what are we really creating?
For an example - I bring it to what I believe is an ugly apex:
Partial birth abortion... Baby has the head outside the birthing canal but it isn't classified as a baby... it is just a clump of cells. So, suck out the brains before it become a living being.
Can you imagine how, if that position permeates the younger generation, where will it lead us? I remember when they first started abortion for "extreme cases"... and look where it is now. Where are we really going to when we don't value life?
His own sister and niece say he's always been and still is pro-choice but "converted" to pro-life on abortion in order to try and get the Republican nomination. And he says that he's closer to his sister than anyone else, btw.
I certainly don't agree with "demonizing" a group. My sisters have had multiple abortions so it isn't that I don't understand, don't love them or called them to be "my own family of demons" All are people who, for whatever reason, made a very difficult decision. Incidentally, both are pro-life today.
We have friends that have adopted, whether from foster care or outright adoption. The process is so costly and there are so many hurdles (I assume they were created in the beginning for the safety of the child) that it is now really for those who have means. Can you imagine if we streamlined it so that the average person could also adopt? Would more people adopt if it were less complicated?
How many would need to be adopted if we filled 2,000,000 waiting parents?
Ahhh, great counter point. I didn't see that number of waiting couples. This gives me more hope! We need to make this process easier but we also need to be careful to screen applicants carefully. There is a balance to strike here.
"I do not have the resources to provide for this child properly." - I raised 3 children, also raised my brother, also raised my wife's two sisters. I started when I was earning about $300/ week. Difficult? You betcha. Had to squeeze blood out of a turnip? LOL I guess I did. Did my children know we didn't have anything? Not until they went to a 6 figure income home of a friend. Is resources really the problem? Not really IMV. The resources for raising great children was not money. For us it was love and the resources of God's love.
This is not to discredit your hard work (well done, by the way ), but when did this happen? The current economy makes this challenging, hence my support of expanding financial services to families getting started.
If life isn't important to protect, aren't we creating an insensitive generation? If we reduce a living being to a clump of cells with the only difference that we add just a little more value inside the womb than outside... what are we really creating?
I agree, the great news is that this form of abortion is illegal (I think?). If it helps, it is also a considerable minority of cases:
In 2000, although only 0.17% (2,232 of 1,313,000) of all abortions in the United States were performed using this procedure, it developed into a focal point of the abortion debate. Intact D&E of a fetus with a heartbeat was outlawed in most cases by the 2003 federal Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act, which was upheld by the United States Supreme Court in the case of Gonzales v. Carhart.
You’ll have to search that out for yourself and get those answers, this OP really isn’t about that. The Bible does say why though but don’t think you’re really interested in the answer and seem disingenuous.
I have already. Yahweh stinks. I was a Christian for 28 years, 22 as an evangelical. I, like many, like Jesus and his message, but the Bible's portrayal of his god, is conflicted at best, and psychopathic at worst.
His own sister and niece say he's always been and still is pro-choice but "converted" to pro-life on abortion in order to try and get the Republican nomination. And he says that he's closer to his sister than anyone else, btw.
Yep. I read his niece's book. I feel sorry for him, for the way his dad treated him and his brother. Sadly, he has a lot of damage to undo but will he?
I really don't understand what your point is in context of why there are some Christians (not all) who voted for Trump. For that matter, there were non-Christians who voted for Trump
The point is that there are things in the Bible that the religious right misinterpret or downright ignore, then care about it when it suits them. At least be consistent.
Trump has been a Democrat his entire life. I think he is actually a Trojan horse of the FBI. His task was to draw out the militant right wingers and militias in order for the FBI to identify and arrest them and to establish a watch list of potential right wing terrorists.
He is also telling his followers to get vaccinated just like Bill Gates and the rest of the Great Reset camp have been pushing, right? So Trump is pushing vaccine genocide that some of his supporters says is part of the globalist agenda.
The part where you claim that Christians "do more for people in poverty than any other group."
Which would include any and all public service/welfare state programs, which are secular and therefore do not involve Christians as a group.
Can you imagine how, if that position permeates the younger generation, where will it lead us? I remember when they first started abortion for "extreme cases"... and look where it is now. Where are we really going to when we don't value life?
And therefore you want your government to force women to carry a child to term, enslaving their bodies for the sake of political ideology and some vague notion of "morality" that most cannot even articulate.
Is that the kind of "freedom" I hear Christian-fundamentalist Americans so frequently talking about? Literal forced labor?
The God should be accountable if it sets absolute morality. If you interpret the Bible literally then YOU have to be accountable for that.
But I see many theists assume their God is not accountable to heathens, and by extension the true believer can also act immorally because their God shields them. This is how we get vile and immoral believers who are not morally accountable to other people.
But if you’re saying God is immoral because of the reasons you listed then how can you be anything but pro-life and speak up for the innocent children in the womb?
I am pro-life. I am pro-choice as well, because I value personal freedom. I don't like abortion, no one does, but I also don't like unwanted children in the world. Or children born with defects. Or rape victims being formed to give birth. We can't live in pretense that there is some idealized morality as you and other extreme theists, because it doesn't reflect real ambiguities and moral subtleties . Anti-choice Christians don't advocate for a consistent moral view. It is a single political issue they have adopted and use to manipulate society and control women who don't have the means to travel for the medical procedure.
Actually, the Christian vote isn't as homogenous as one would think though. The media has convinced people of that as it was reported that 18% voted for Biden and almost another 2% for other.
However, there would be many factors why they voted for Trump.
Democratic Platform promotes abortion through 9 months
Redefinition of marriage
Religious liberty
Have the mention of God stay in Government
Anti-school choice
promoting of sex in education instead of sex-education
These are probably mitigating circumstances where they may swing towards the Republican vote.
But there are varying opinions on the different points.
You make Christians out to be pretty horrible people.
... and your points 3 and 4 conflict with each other (unless you mean that Trump and Christians are both opposed to religious freedom, which would be fair, but I doubt this is what you're suggesting).
Sure, there are more Christians in prisons, too. My grandmother's church had a food kitchen that I volunteered in as a kid. Those were great people just doing humanitarian work. They didn't spread the Gospel doing it, but they lived it.
The question is why conservative Christians don't reflect this attitude and moral obligation, but instead allow nasty, divisive political rhetoric to interfere?
I have already. Yahweh stinks. I was a Christian for 28 years, 22 as an evangelical. I, like many, like Jesus and his message, but the Bible's portrayal of his god, is conflicted at best, and psychopathic at worst.
Just to let you know, anyone who has been born of the Holy Spirit wouldn’t have a skewed view of God like you are communicating. This is why it’s false to say I accept Jesus and His message but not God the Father.
“Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.” Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.” Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.”
John 14:6-11 NIV
“The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. And he is the head of the body, the church; he is the beginning and the firstborn from among the dead, so that in everything he might have the supremacy. For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.”
Colossians 1:15-20 NIV
“The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.”
Hebrews 1:3 NIV
I interpret the Bible and when you talk interpretation that means what did God mean when He said … The first prerequisite in understanding Scripture is by being taught by the Holy Spirit. That comes by repenting, receiving the Gospel and being born again. Until that happens I I believe people will have a skewed view of God and misinterpret Scripture.
“As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.”
Ephesians 2:1-10 NIV
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