Christian Trump Supporters

[F1fan]

Makes me think of Ceasar. Christians in the Bible don't think very highly at all, yet felt appointed by God.

Even as an atheist I'd prefer Trump over Biden.

Why do you think this is a sound decision? A conservative might disagree with Biden's policies, but how can you overlook trump's massive corruption and intent to cheat the American people over the election he lost?

 

[F1fan]

I'm not a "one issue person".

My personal thoughts... people don't have to agree with my thoughts:

I do think the value of life does have an effect on future decisions. For an example, if it is OK to remove life because of the inconvenience, then the next step (over time) is to have no problem with early euthanized application to your parents when they are inconvenient.

This is a bogus argument. You might as well say we can't allow mixed race marriages because that will lead to people getting married to animals. Or gays getting married, for the same slippery slope fear. Having watched my mother die from cancer recently I can say I don't want to anguish slowly like that. I would definitely support the right of a person to end their life when they decide there is no more quality of life. to live.

How this applies to aborting a clump of cells that a woman does not want to allow to form into a fetus, and then be born, assuming no defects, is not relevant. We humans have to assume certain rights for the sake of our well being and happiness. That a woman can decide to end the development of a clump of cells is reasonable to me.

As noted, conservatives seem more interested in a clump of cells than they do children in poverty. To my mind this informs us of the lack of moral sophistication, and are just acting through a political ideology they have adopted.

If not being responsible for what caused life in the first place, then you will more than likely begin to hold yourself not responsible for your life decisions.

No one knows. It is likely just a natural process that the universe has no concern about. After all, the universe does not care about still births. It doesn't care that children are born with defects, and cancers that kill them before puberty, unless doctors can save them. Christians need to be very careful about hanging their morality on a universe that is exceptionally indifferent and hostile to life.

In the long run, I think it also begins to affect marriage decision and slowly spreads to other areas.

(No empirical and verifiable evidence, just my viewpoint)

Much like a state telling a woman she has to have a baby, because the state says so. Don't you think that sort of pressure from the state will affect a marriage? A guy's wife is raped, and she is forced to give birth to that attacker's child?

 

[F1fan]

First, there are a lot of reasons to not trust Trump or vote for him. These are some of the Scriptural reasons I did.
Who is King Cyrus, and why did Netanyahu compare him to Trump?
He supported Israel.

It's not an acceptable compromise. Clinton would have supported Israel too.

Of course Netanyahu has his corruption problems, like trump. Conservatives of thew world need to pick better leadership, not keep compromising on ethics as if that will be acceptable and leads to stability.

 

[Quetzal]

I do think the value of life does have an effect on future decisions. For an example, if it is OK to remove life because of the inconvenience, then the next step (over time) is to have no problem with early euthanized application to your parents when they are inconvenient.

Thank you for sharing, I respectfully disagree on a few things. Based on what I have heard, rarely is an abortion carried out due to inconvenience. The decision itself is very difficult and has many dimensions. I will concede that I am sure there are people in the world who make the snap decision with no moral questioning, but I would guess that is an outlier instead of the norm. (Just a guess, no data here.)

I also disagree that this would lead to a slippery slope for euthanization of the elderly. (If this is not the argument you were making, please correct me.) I have never heard this argument and I think it would be thrown out on arrival. To question my own assumptions: have you heard this argument proposed? Seems pretty barbaric to me (on that I am pretty sure we agree. )

If not being responsible for what caused life in the first place, then you will more than likely begin to hold yourself not responsible for your life decisions.

Interesting perspective, can you expand a bit more? What sort of life decisions? An example or two might help me see this position more clearly.

In the long run, I think it also begins to affect marriage decision and slowly spreads to other areas.

I have heard this one. Is the idea that the stress and moral questioning will cause friction within the couple? If so, I can see that being a possibility for sure.

 

[Quetzal]

Cthulhu knows I've tried to explain.

Need to make sure your shrine is in pristine order. Cthulhu demands the best!

 

[Kenny]

This is a bogus argument. You might as well say we can't allow mixed race marriages because that will lead to people getting married to animals. Or gays getting married, for the same slippery slope fear. Having watched my mother die from cancer recently I can say I don't want to anguish slowly like that. I would definitely support the right of a person to end their life when they decide there is no more quality of life. to live.

I have no idea how this even applies. How you constructed this from what I said is beyond me.

Sorry about your mom. I would assume she was glad she lived as much as she did. My mother also died from cancer.

=
How this applies to aborting a clump of cells that a woman does not want to allow to form into a fetus, and then be born, assuming no defects, is not relevant. We humans have to assume certain rights for the sake of our well being and happiness. That a woman can decide to end the development of a clump of cells is reasonable to me.

Yes, that is a viewpoint. I just don't see it as a clump of cells. But we all know that our right to the pursuit of happiness should not include "while I destroy someone else"

As noted, conservatives seem more interested in a clump of cells than they do children in poverty. To my mind this informs us of the lack of moral sophistication, and are just acting through a political ideology they have adopted.

This mantra is always being used even while Christians are a group of people that do more for people in poverty that any other group. So your point is quite mute IMV.

No one knows. It is likely just a natural process that the universe has no concern about. After all, the universe does not care about still births. It doesn't care that children are born with defects, and cancers that kill them before puberty, unless doctors can save them. Christians need to be very careful about hanging their morality on a universe that is exceptionally indifferent and hostile to life.

I fail to see any application here other that you are upset that we have a position that you don't agree with,

Everybody hangs some type of morality on another group.

Much like a state telling a woman she has to have a baby, because the state says so. Don't you think that sort of pressure from the state will affect a marriage? A guy's wife is raped, and she is forced to give birth to that attacker's child?

I think that is a matter of perspective. The perspective of the child in the womb may be quite different.

She doesn't look like a clump of cells to me and I doubt it was a clump of cells when she survived an abortion.

 

[Kenny]

I "SOOO" appreciate the tenor of your sharing.

I would like to mention again that this is a purely subjective position that I hold to. I haven't researched any supportive documentation.

Thank you for sharing, I respectfully disagree on a few things. Based on what I have heard, rarely is an abortion carried out due to inconvenience. The decision itself is very difficult and has many dimensions. I will concede that I am sure there are people in the world who make the snap decision with no moral questioning, but I would guess that is an outlier instead of the norm. (Just a guess, no data here.)

Maybe I should have been a little more communicative in my presentation.

Indeed it is a highly emotionally stressful moment. I shouldn't have made it so light with a simple word as "inconvenient".

There is a statement that I use that goes this way, "When emotions runs high, intelligence runs low". Getting pregnant is highly emotional and the difficulties it may present are quite real. But responsibilities for one's action is also a factor IMV.

Permit me to elaborate with common occurrences:

1. Two people come together and the woman get's pregnant. The male or female determines, "It just isn't the right time and it will stop the plans the we wanted. My education, the desires to get a house first, we haven't had fun-filled life yet, I don't want to deal with the financial responsibilities that come with it (too hard)" and the list can go on. Inconvenience is still the right word though it does make it sound so calloused.
2. More emotional: A pregnancy occurs and the male counterpart says "YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE GOTTEN PREGNANT (like it was her fault), I DON'T WANT A BABY, IT IS JUST A FETUS SO GET RID OF IT. IF YOU DON'T I'M LEAVING" Caps done on purpose. He is inconvenienced and doesn't want to take responsibility

I could go on with multiple scenarios, Parental pressure, pier pressure, Planned Parenthood pressure...

Of course there are even more emotional pressures such as rape. It is believed about 5% of rape victims get pregnant. Half of those have the babies and the other half abort.

I also disagree that this would lead to a slippery slope for euthanization of the elderly. (If this is not the argument you were making, please correct me.) I have never heard this argument and I think it would be thrown out on arrival. To question my own assumptions: have you heard this argument proposed? Seems pretty barbaric to me (on that I am pretty sure we agree. )

Yes, I have heard it before.

Certainly euthanasia is on the increase. Most likely, if i quoted it, I would get a litany of "that is a biased position". Certainly if one is on the side of pro-abortion or pro-euthanasia, anything contrary to it would be classified as such.Certainly those who are against both ends would probably be people of faith because of the premium they put on life. You can find an abundance of those who believe so by googling:

connection between abortion and euthanasia

One poster expressed it logically, IMO, this way: "If abortion is justified (on the grounds that its a life thats not worth living) for the seriously unhealthy when unborn, then why should we not euthanasia the unhealthy later on after birth (on the grounds that its a life thats not worth living- be that voluntarily or involuntarily)"

Interesting perspective, can you expand a bit more? What sort of life decisions? An example or two might help me see this position more clearly.

My esteem for your has had a quantum leap forward. Whether we agree or not at this point is irrelevant. It is the mature exchange of thought without being offensive that impressed me. I thank you! And good question.

IMV, I think it is a mindset that one creates. (Please note... "I think" --- not "it is". )

I found a Psychology title of "Why You Should Have Never Had Kids (If You Want To Be Happy, That Is)"

It is an "I - Me" mentality. So, since my life is more important that someone else's, then i have rights that I don't care what it does to someone else. I'm sure that in many cases it can be attributed to other reasons too.

We had an event, recently, where we gave out free Christmas gifts. Someone is going to get a better gift than another person but when someone said "FAVORITISM, I'm not getting the good present that I wanted while someone else got a good one. (This is such a trivial example but trying to express it cogently however trivial it may be) It is still a "I/me" viewpoint - no matter who it affects.

Or, in a greater measure, "Dad, mom, I know you are older but you need to work out your own problems of life and living, I have my own life to live".

I have heard this one. Is the idea that the stress and moral questioning will cause friction within the couple? If so, I can see that being a possibility for sure.

That's a good application. Also, "you forced me to give up the child I wanted", or "Post-abortion syndrome" that appears later years,.

 

[ElishaElijah]

It's not an acceptable compromise. Clinton would have supported Israel too.

Of course Netanyahu has his corruption problems, like trump. Conservatives of thew world need to pick better leadership, not keep compromising on ethics as if that will be acceptable and leads to stability.

That wasn’t the only reason but Clinton may have said she supported Israel but Trump proved this by his actions.
Not only that but the OP specifically said state your reasons without mentioning the other party, people etc. so I would say that applies to your comments as well. Well it said without denigrating the other opponent so why not leave the other party out of the discussion.

 

[Quetzal]

Maybe I should have been a little more communicative in my presentation.

Indeed it is a highly emotionally stressful moment. I shouldn't have made it so light with a simple word as "inconvenient".

There is a statement that I use that goes this way, "When emotions runs high, intelligence runs low". Getting pregnant is highly emotional and the difficulties it may present are quite real. But responsibilities for one's action is also a factor IMV.

Permit me to elaborate with common occurrences:

1. Two people come together and the woman get's pregnant. The male or female determines, "It just isn't the right time and it will stop the plans the we wanted. My education, the desires to get a house first, we haven't had fun-filled life yet, I don't want to deal with the financial responsibilities that come with it (too hard)" and the list can go on. Inconvenience is still the right word though it does make it sound so calloused.
2. More emotional: A pregnancy occurs and the male counterpart says "YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE GOTTEN PREGNANT (like it was her fault), I DON'T WANT A BABY, IT IS JUST A FETUS SO GET RID OF IT. IF YOU DON'T I'M LEAVING" Caps done on purpose. He is inconvenienced and doesn't want to take responsibility

I could go on with multiple scenarios, Parental pressure, pier pressure, Planned Parenthood pressure...

Of course there are even more emotional pressures such as rape. It is believed about 5% of rape victims get pregnant. Half of those have the babies and the other half abort.

This is a tough topic to articulate sometimes, but these details help considerably! I understand your perspective even if we may disagree on some of the details. Either way, your position is a perfectly reasonable one.

Yes, I have heard it before.

Certainly euthanasia is on the increase. Most likely, if i quoted it, I would get a litany of "that is a biased position". Certainly if one is on the side of pro-abortion or pro-euthanasia, anything contrary to it would be classified as such.Certainly those who are against both ends would probably be people of faith because of the premium they put on life. You can find an abundance of those who believe so by googling:

connection between abortion and euthanasia

One poster expressed it logically, IMO, this way: "If abortion is justified (on the grounds that its a life thats not worth living) for the seriously unhealthy when unborn, then why should we not euthanasia the unhealthy later on after birth (on the grounds that its a life thats not worth living- be that voluntarily or involuntarily)"

This is a complicated web and I don't think we can even scratch the surface here. But I will say that framing it as "on the grounds that it's a life thats not worth living" seeks to intentionally demonize the opposition without really understanding where the argument comes from. My theory is that these are more common rationalizations:

• "I would not be a good parent."
• "I do not have the resources to provide for this child properly."
• "My partner is abusive and I don't want to subject a child to that."
• "I am overwhelmed and there aren't resources to help me."

These are logical conclusions, not emotional ones. Here is the rub: most anti-abortionists (is that a word?) are also in support of reducing financial safety nets for those in poverty. That venn diagram is pretty much two circles on top of each other. The rate of adoption is also pathetically low. Roughly ~400,000 in foster care with the annual adoption rate hovering around 135,000 respectively. If an individual is in support of prohibiting abortion, they should also be in favor if raising safety nets, federal and state funds being allocated to foster care systems, and additional financial investment in families in poverty. This is rarely the case. In short, in my experience, those who want abortions to stop are the same people who want to reduce the support to the child/family after the child is born.

I will pass on the abortion/euthanasia portion of this topic because I don't know enough to comment.

My esteem for your has had a quantum leap forward. Whether we agree or not at this point is irrelevant. It is the mature exchange of thought without being offensive that impressed me. I thank you! And good question.

IMV, I think it is a mindset that one creates. (Please note... "I think" --- not "it is". )

I found a Psychology title of "Why You Should Have Never Had Kids (If You Want To Be Happy, That Is)"

It is an "I - Me" mentality. So, since my life is more important that someone else's, then i have rights that I don't care what it does to someone else. I'm sure that in many cases it can be attributed to other reasons too.

We had an event, recently, where we gave out free Christmas gifts. Someone is going to get a better gift than another person but when someone said "FAVORITISM, I'm not getting the good present that I wanted while someone else got a good one. (This is such a trivial example but trying to express it cogently however trivial it may be) It is still a "I/me" viewpoint - no matter who it affects.

Or, in a greater measure, "Dad, mom, I know you are older but you need to work out your own problems of life and living, I have my own life to live".

Hmm, is the idea here that the decision to have an abortion might reflect more selfish behavioral patterns? I have more comments on this topic but I want to make sure we are on the same page.

Sorry if my thoughts didn't align perfectly with the quoted material, we are covering a lot of ground! Keep em comin!

 

[F1fan]

I have no idea how this even applies. How you constructed this from what I said is beyond me.

You offered the slippery slope claim that abortion could or would lead to euthanizing the elderly. Let's note that abortion has been a legal right in the USA since the 70's and it has not lead to any sort of thing. My comparison to gay marriage leading to marriage of other types, like with animals, or multiple partners, is what opponents to gay marriage put forth, conservative Christians.

Sorry about your mom. I would assume she was glad she lived as much as she did. My mother also died from cancer.

Thanks, It's not an easy thing to endure and witness. It's the natural cycle of life, and doesn't seem fair.

Yes, that is a viewpoint. I just don't see it as a clump of cells. But we all know that our right to the pursuit of happiness should not include "while I destroy someone else"

The aim of the right, and anti-choice activists, has been to redefine the fertilized egg and how it becomes a clump of cells into an identify as a human baby. This has been an emotional argument and quite effective.

This mantra is always being used even while Christians are a group of people that do more for people in poverty that any other group. So your point is quite mute IMV.

Since the majority of citizens has been some type of Christian means most groups will be associated that way. And why shouldn't it be. Jesus not only gave talks about being a godly person, but even as just a secular humanist.

My point was that many more conservative Christians have been manipulated to be obedient ghosts to political actors, from Reagan to trump. These appeals to some political aim has often been contrary to what Jesus taught, namely about taking care of the needy. Republicans have developed a huge hostility towards the poor and disadvantaged in the USA, especially people of color. The racism can go back to how the Confederate States of America were largely Southern Baptist, and these traditional ties exist under the surface of American life. This projects into bad decisions like nominating trump, and then voting for him as president, especially a second time given his corruption and incompetence.

I fail to see any application here other that you are upset that we have a position that you don't agree with,

Everybody hangs some type of morality on another group.

I'm likely only upset because my mother died from brain cancer a few weeks ago. Otherwise it is an observation that the universe is quite hostile to life. It doesn't care if you are a tapeworm or a newborn baby. The love and care comes from we humans. Believers insist it comes from God, but this is the same creator of the universe that is indifferent and even hostile to life.

I think that is a matter of perspective. The perspective of the child in the womb may be quite different.

I think it's arguable to refer to the stages of pregnancy. The first trimester is pretty hard to argue that the zygote/fetus is a child. I know we assign special meaning to humans, which I don't have a problem with, but we need to remain objective and grounded in fact.

She doesn't look like a clump of cells to me and I doubt it was a clump of cells when she survived an abortion.

Again to argue out of context of the stages of pregnancy is disingenuous. I personally don't like abortion, especially late term abortion, but there are circumstances where it is a necessary and humane procedure. It's not my business to tell a woman what she can do.

 

[ElishaElijah]

The aim of the right, and anti-choice activists, has been to redefine the fertilized egg and how it becomes a clump of cells into an identify as a human baby. This has been an emotional argument and quite effective.

Only problem with that is 100% of human beings start there, you did and I did so where are you going to draw the line? As a believer God says He knew me in the womb when I was conceived.
“For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother’s womb.”
‭‭Psalms‬ ‭139:13‬ ‭NIV‬‬
So I’m going to agree with God on that.
You call it “anti-choice”, that’s a convenient way to justify killing an innocent baby, the choice should be made before having sex. And I’m talking specifically about the pregnancies due to sex outside of marriage between 2 consenting adults.

 

[metis]

I'm likely only upset because my mother died from brain cancer a few weeks ago.

Sorry to rea that, and you have my sympathies. We just lost a sister-in-law this morning from cancer.

 

[ecco]

No... I actually have answered the question. LOL. In reality, your mantra is the sheeple cry of the media.

No, actually. You posted a bogus list of Fox, Sheeple, Religious Conservative talking points. I challenged you to try to support them. You have been unable to.

The why is easy, all of them are Bull**** propaganda with no basis in truth or reality. Not that you care.

Let me answer again, not for your sake, but rather for others who may have not read my answer.

In my view, I had two options. I picked what I thought was the best of the two options (whether right or wrong will always be a debate).

Your reason was that he would appoint anti-abortion judges. However, you continued to support the Big Lie about the election fraud.

It is obvious that the past is a spur in your life.

If you are referring to the election of Mussolini wanna-be Trump, you may be right. His is a spur and a stain on this country and the office of the president.

I've learned that prayer really is the answer for all issues. Forgiveness is also a powerful tool. Do you pray and forgive?

I don't need to pray to an imaginary man in the sky to know when to forgive and when to not forgive.

 

[ecco]

Even as an atheist I'd prefer Trump over Biden.

It's questionable that you are an atheist. Even your stated religious preference belies that.

 

[ecco]

This mantra is always being used even while Christians are a group of people that do more for people in poverty that any other group. So your point is quite mute IMV.

Many Christian organizations bring food and clothing to impoverished people. In return, they spread their religious beliefs to those they supposedly are helping.

With the help of like-minded folks in the government, they took Native American children from their homes, subjected them to religious indoctrination and other indoctrination to try to eliminate their heritage.

Your high horse stinks of horse ****.

 

[ecco]

Planned Parenthood pressure...

Please describe in detail the kind of pro-abortion pressure that Planned Parenthood puts on a pregnant woman. Be sure to include sources.

Of course there are even more emotional pressures such as rape. It is believed about 5% of rape victims get pregnant. Half of those have the babies and the other half abort.

Of the half who carried to term some number gave them up for adoption. How many such unwanted children have you adopted? None. Why is that not surprising. People who believe like you should be adopting these children. But you don't.

connection between abortion and euthanasia

One poster expressed it logically, IMO, this way: "If abortion is justified (on the grounds that its a life thats not worth living) for the seriously unhealthy when unborn, then why should we not euthanasia the unhealthy later on after birth (on the grounds that its a life thats not worth living- be that voluntarily or involuntarily)"

Seriously! You conflate abortion with my right to end my own life? Really? I thought conservatives wanted government to stay out of people's lives. The stench of hypocrisy is overwhelming.

 

[ecco]

And I’m talking specifically about the pregnancies due to sex outside of marriage between 2 consenting adults.

So, you are OK with married women getting an abortion - yes.

that’s a convenient way to justify killing an innocent baby,

Babies don't get aborted. Fetuses get aborted. Your god aborts about 25% of all pregnancies. Why is that? Does He need more embryos and fetuses sitting next to Him in heaven?

 

[ElishaElijah]

So, you are OK with married women getting an abortion - yes.





Babies don't get aborted. Fetuses get aborted. Your god aborts about 25% of all pregnancies. Why is that? Does He need more embryos and fetuses sitting next to Him in heaven?

No, was about the “anti-choice” comment and you’ll have to ask God for yourself if you have questions concerning Him.

 

[ecco]

Babies don't get aborted. Fetuses get aborted. Your god aborts about 25% of all pregnancies. Why is that? Does He need more embryos and fetuses sitting next to Him in heaven?

... and you’ll have to ask God for yourself if you have questions concerning Him.

Not my problem. As far as I'm concerned, that's just nature.

However, you are the God believer. Doesn't it ever occur to you to wonder why a supposedly anti-abortion God aborts 25% of all pregnancies? Or do you just blindly accept such things?

 

[Twilight Hue]

It's questionable that you are an atheist. Even your stated religious preference belies that.

Rest assured there are no gods on my palate.

I do acknowledge however there is so much to the actual universe for which its in reality, so bizzare and freaky out there I find the situation itself as being a suitable replacement that requires absolutely no fluff or flights of fancy like that of inventing an all encompassing sky daddy that watches over all of us and everything.