Christianity and secular music (rock, in particular)

[porkchop]

Fortunately for you and others, it is not your job to worry about who has back slidden or who is saved. That's God job because you can't know anyone's heart but your own. I'd limit that concern to your immediate family or close friends.

Thankyou, but i have concern for all lost souls, and also for my fellow brethren who may have back slidden or who are in need of help, and generally, i just care because the Holy Spirit dwells in me and causes me too. ( you included, buttercup)x

I knew a girl once who came from a very lovely family. Her father was a Baptist minister and her mother played piano for the choir. The entire family was a joy to be around because they exuded such love and energy. Unfortunately, the parents were also very strict. My friend couldn't go to dances at school, couldn't listen to any music other than what her parents picked out, couldn't date any boys except those that went to a church they knew of, etc. Of course their intentions were good and they thought they were doing the right thing and they were very loving. As soon as that girl got out of the house and on her own....she basically went wild. Her parents didn't know this however. She and I lived together and I can't tell you how many men she brought home and how many times she got drunk out of her mind. In fact, she ended up getting married young because she got pregnant.

The moral of the story is....know when to fight the worthy battles regarding kids and the music they listen to, or yourself for that matter. Let kids explore, let them test boundries and help them realize it's not the end of the world to listen to music that isnt' "Christian". Your child will be less likely to rebel later and will respect you more in the end.

I havn't really spoken on this kind of example youve posted,this is more an issue of parenting, don't you think?

 

[porkchop]

well, since non christians have been invited to do so, i shall...uhh...do so...*ahem* most music like that is expressing anger, confusion, and stuff like that. when im angry i listen to angry music because i can identify with it, when people say "it only makes your anger worse" i say its either that or i get "physical" try listening to system of a down, they support christianity, have good angry music, and display popular political beliefs.

Thankyou for your view on this thread.

 

[porkchop]

at least do your homework.

After Forever by Black Sabbath

Have you ever thought about your soul - can it be saved?
Or perhaps you think that when youre dead you just stay in your grave
Is God just a thought within your head or is he a part of you?
Is christ just a name that you read in a book when you were in school?

When you think about death do you lose your breath or
Do you keep your cool?
Would you like to see the pope on the end of a rope
Do you think hes a fool?
Well I have seen the truth, yes Ive seen the light and Ive changed my ways
And Ill be prepared when youre lonely and scared at the end of our days

Could it be youre afraid of what your friends might say
If they knew you believe in God above?
They should realize before they criticize
That God is the only way to love

Is your mind so small that you have to fall
In with the pack wherever they run
Will you still sneer when death is near
And say they may as well worship the sun?

I think it was true it was people like you that crucified christ
I think it is sad the opinion you had was the only one voiced
Will you be so sure when your day is near, say you dont believe?
You had the chance but you turned it down, now you cant retrieve

Perhaps youll think before you say that God is dead and gone
Open your eyes, just realize that hes the one
The only one who can save you now from all this sin and hate
Or will you still jeer at all you hear? yes! I think its too late.

Hmmmmmmmmm, not sure about this one. Although i remember Ozzy once saying he was born again, just a phase he was going through maybe???
Slap on the hand for me for not looking over satanic songs to find one that isn't!!!

 

[d.]

Hmmmmmmmmm, not sure about this one. Although i remember Ozzy once saying he was born again, just a phase he was going through maybe???
Slap on the hand for me for not looking over satanic songs to find one that isn't!!!

if you're genuinely interested, the common denominator for black sabbath lyrics is more appropriately 'fantasy' than 'satanism'. black sabbath is in reality no more satanic than milton's 'paradise lost' is.

but if the only criterion for music being 'satanic' is that it's not explicitly christian... but that's a lot of music. as long as you don't start burning records though, it's your life, and you're free to cripple it as you wish.

 

[d.]

i actually enjoy a lot of christian music.

for example gregorian chants, thomas tallis, palestrina, bach, beethoven...

 

[MaddLlama]

What exactly is satanic about rock music in general? The fact that it deals with real world and ugly issues that we'd rather not have to think about? You said you don't like Christian rock music either, so, is it the lyrics, or is it the instruments and how they are being played?
I don't get why some people have issues with CCM.....people want to listen to modern music, and you'd think Christians would be happy that they have modern sounding music with "Christian-enriching" lyrics. What's the problem with that? If Christians shouldn't be listening to modern music that is supposed to "glorify god", then what should they be listening to?

If you don't like something, or something makes you feel uncomfortable, scared, or weak, that doesn't mean that whatever that something is must therefore be evil. Not all of life is happy Christian flowers and light, especially not in the "secular world". Musicians write about real issues, and real emotions, and just because they are negative emotions doesn't mean that satan is fueling the music. Sometimes the best way to deal with a negative emotion is to put it into music. Writing such music as well as listening to it can be very cathartic. I don't see why this is such an issue.

If you have the overwhelming desire to see a demon under every rock, then chances are you will, even when they aren't there.

 

[MaddLlama]

It never ceases to amaze me how people love to see the bad in others. Why would you automatically think that i would create such a thread as to make you feel judged and upset and make me feel great about it? Especially as a christian, a fellow sister in Christ.
And i am anything BUT self righteous.

Whether or not it was your intention, that is certainly how you come accross to me pretty much all the time.

I don't feel spiritually pressed to critisize any fellow christans music choices, I wish to inform people about this subject with the hope that they will come to the right conclusion themselves, with prayer.

Yes, you talk about issues like this and hope that the people will come to the right conclusion - that you are right. Does it occur to you that maybe Christians are equipped differently handly certain things? What your faith can't handle, maybe another persons can. From what I have experienced here, I haven't seen Dawn's "Christian-ness" effected by whatever music she may listen to. Actually I was somewhat surprised to see some of those groups on the list of bands she likes, but I respect that even as a strong Christian, Dawn isn't automatically against anything that is "secular".

 

[MaddLlama]

And, also not all rock music has lyrics that are about negative experiences or emotions. Plenty of rock deal with positive feelings and things. Take for example R.E.M's "Shiny Happy People"

Shiny happy people laughing
Meet me in the crowd
People people
Throw your love around
Love me love me
Take it into town
Happy happy
Put it in the ground
Where the flowers grow
Gold and silver shine

Shiny happy people holding hands
Shiny happy people laughing

Everyone around love them, love them
Put it in your hands
Take it take it
There's no time to cry
Happy happy
Put it in your heart
Where tomorrow shines
Gold and silver shine

Shiny happy people holding hands
Shiny happy people laughing

Is all rock music bad, or only the ones with profanity, lyrics that mention sex, or anything that that even hints that they don't believe in God? And, if it's all bad, can you tell me what's wrong with positive or even neutral emotions being expressed through non-classical music?

 

[Bishka]

Thankyou, but i have concern for all lost souls, and also for my fellow brethren who may have back slidden or who are in need of help, and generally, i just care because the Holy Spirit dwells in me and causes me too. ( you included, buttercup)x

And if they don't want your help and don't feel in need at all will you still push the issue?

 

[Bishka]

i actually enjoy a lot of christian music.

for example gregorian chants, thomas tallis, palestrina, bach, beethoven...

Mmmm. Gregorian chants.

 

[dawny0826]

It never ceases to amaze me how people love to see the bad in others. Why would you automatically think that i would create such a thread as to make you feel judged and upset and make me feel great about it?

With all due respect, why would you assume things about fellow Christians, simply by the music that they listen to? Is that not in a way, "seeing the bad" in others?

Especially as a christian, a fellow sister in Christ. I don't want you to feel judged, Dawn, and i apologise if the way i posted came across harsh, i get frustrated with this issue and how christians don't seem to ' test all things', or look into things deeply enough to understand what its all about.

No hard feelings at all, stimpy but each Christian will "test all things" as they go along in their walk. I believe that your intentions were good and I extend apologies to you, if I made you feel judged.

My intention for this debate was to start what i consider an interesting debate/discussion on this subject, and yes, it would be great if some christians who hadnt looked into it felt convicted (by the Holy Spirit) enough to pray about it and hopefully stop listening to such distasteful music.

Okay. As I've stated, if that's what you feel you need to do, then you should.

Personally, i would like someone to tell/correct me ( and this has happened over the years and i am grateful for it) if i am into something that isnt gonna help me to grow in my faith, and i wanna do whats right by God. I said what i said because i wanted you to really think about this issue, as i know music can have such a hold over people, it did over me.

I can understand that.

But do keep in mind that music doesn't necessarily have the same effect on every individual.

Further, Christians are not only to walk a straight line in terms of the music that they listen to...it's also the movies that they watch, the books that they read, the clothes that they wear, the words that come out of their mouth. Every aspect of life is one that a Christian should ponder over. Again, your message is one that I wholeheartedly agree with but it's unfair for you to make assumptions about the hearts of Christians who do listen to secular music, simply because you can't possibly know what goes on in the hearts and minds of each Christian individual.

I love music, but thats the flesh talking, its all about the way it makes you feel.

EXACTLY. You're more than welcome to think what you want of me, as I've already stated but when I listen to secular music, particularly shoegazer (my favorite) and rock...I like to get up and dance and rock out...it's not often any deeper than that.

Whereas it would be more beneficial to feed my spirit wth Hymns and praises to God.

I absolutely agree with you, here.

Dont get me wrong, i do listen to secular music; on the radio or on internet( i don't own any), but what it comes down to is faith vs feeling, and it can be a constant battle.

Of course, it's a constant battle. It's a constant battle for every Christian. And it's an INDIVIDUALISTIC battle as each Christian is unique and has different gifts. I for one, enjoy singing and dancing very much. It's a part of who I am...

Why would i wanna do that? It's hardly benefical to me or you. As christians, we should all be helping each other to grow and learn, sometimes it feels convicting, but thats the work of the Holy Spirit and its better to feel that way as it lets you know somethings not right.

That's why I mentioned "approach". You're right, completely...it's great for Christians to be able to talk and share with one another, to help each other along in our walks with Christ.

And so am i,and i also make mistakes, which i always try to correct, sometimes with the help of others. I don't feel spiritually pressed to critisize any fellow christans music choices, I wish to inform people about this subject with the hope that they will come to the right conclusion themselves, with prayer.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that Christians who listen to music that they really shouldn't be listening to...ALREADY feel conviction on a personal level for their actions. In a way, it's the choir that's being preached to.

First, i would never mention music when witnessing to a non christian, as its something that, once saved, will hopefully change in them automatically.

God can use secular music for the benefit of His children as well. There are secular songs that remind me of God and God's love, even when the intent of the musician wasn't to place that image in my brain.

I stick to the Gospel, salvation and repentance. I am speaking to you about this subject as a sister ( in Christ) to another and feel i can speak honestly and openly with you as i truly do care for you, Dawn.

I appreciate your kind thoughts. And I agree...we should focus on Gospel, salvation and repentance.

And i am anything BUT self righteous.

We're all self righteous at times. This is part of the human condition...why we need Christ so.

I will be praying for you.xx

Thank you.

 

[porkchop]

With all due respect, why would you assume things about fellow Christians, simply by the music that they listen to? Is that not in a way, "seeing the bad" in others?

There are only a few things i would assume about a christian who listens to the type of music i have spoke of, and these are: They are naieve and dont realise its wrong or they know its wrong but would rather ignore that feeling cuz they love their music too much and have justified it too themselves and others around them. These are not 'bad' assumptions, its an observation that i feel is quite obvious to those who walk with the Lord, and i would never label them 'bad', we all sin, myself included, and often there will always be a stumbling block in our lives that we constantly battle against, for some its the urge to smoke, some, to swear, some, music, some, even porn. These are all desires that feed the flesh and because God delivered me from the rock scene, i feel i can speak with knowledge on the subject.

No hard feelings at all, stimpy but each Christian will "test all things" as they go along in their walk. I believe that your intentions were good and I extend apologies to you, if I made you feel judged.

Dawn, you have never made me feel judged at all, nobody on this site has.

But do keep in mind that music doesn't necessarily have the same effect on every individual.

This specific type of music that im talking about has a vaste affect on all who listen to it, wether they realise it or not, ive been there, and have seen the effect it had on friends.

Further, Christians are not only to walk a straight line in terms of the music that they listen to...it's also the movies that they watch, the books that they read, the clothes that they wear, the words that come out of their mouth. Every aspect of life is one that a Christian should ponder over.

I agree, its not just music, i just happen to have started a thread on music. We should always pray for a discerning spirit, especially in these days we live in.

I think the point I'm trying to make is that Christians who listen to music that they really shouldn't be listening to...ALREADY feel conviction on a personal level for their actions. In a way, it's the choir that's being preached to.

The whole point of being convicted is to bring you to obedience. God will often use other people to convict you, to make you see it.

God can use secular music for the benefit of His children as well. There are secular songs that remind me of God and God's love, even when the intent of the musician wasn't to place that image in my brain.

Of course God can use anything, if people are out of the reach of His word, but for those of us that are saved, we have His word to benefit us and Hymns to sing praises to Him, why turn to secular music for this. You were bought with a price, the precious blood of Christ, you are no longer your own, but His. All your bodily members, your mouth, your ears, etc., they should all be used to glorify Him, they are His.

Rom 12v1: I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

Rom 12v2: And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

1Cor 6v19: What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1Cor 6v20: For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

 

[MaddLlama]

Stimpy, please read posts 48, 49 and 50. Thank you

 

[MaddLlama]

There are only a few things i would assume about a christian who listens to the type of music i have spoke of, and these are: They are naieve and dont realise its wrong or they know its wrong but would rather ignore that feeling cuz they love their music too much and have justified it too themselves and others around them. These are not 'bad' assumptions, its an observation that i feel is quite obvious to those who walk with the Lord,

Quite obviously though, the idea of secular music being wrong is not a cut and dry issue, and only your opinion/interpretation.

This specific type of music that im talking about has a vaste affect on all who listen to it, wether they realise it or not, ive been there, and have seen the effect it had on friends.

So, you assume that because you percieved that there was something wrong with your friends who were listening to rock music, that it has a universal negative effect? Can you say for certain that there is a direct and obvious correlation? People like to blame negative emotions and behaviors on things they don't like - violent video games, profanity in music, sex on television.....did it ever occur to anyone that maybe it's not those things at all, but the person who is responsible for thier behavior?
Just a thought...

Of course God can use anything, if people are out of the reach of His word, but for those of us that are saved, we have His word to benefit us and Hymns to sing praises to Him, why turn to secular music for this.

Because secular music is more entertaining for some? It doesn't always have to be about the message. As it's been said several times, sometimes it's just about "rocking out" and being entertained. Unless they want to be, Christians are not required to be monks. Like every other person, they want and deserve a little entertainment. Trust each individual Christian to make the decision for themselves how they will get that entertainment. It really isn't any of your business to be dictating such, even as a Christian. As far as I'm concerned, you have no reason to believe that anyone's "Christian-ness" here is in danger no matter what music they listen to.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Black sabbath is the mother of anti Christ songs

Not passing judgement, but most rock/metal groups, especially the extreme ones, are gimicks. Marilyn Manson and Slipknot are two of the biggest gimmicks thier are. Slipknot even swears it's not a gimmick. Ozzy wrote alot of the songs, if not all of them, while high on drugs. I don't find anything anti-christ like about them. Some songs are even anti-war. This is the last chorus of thier song Luke's Wall/War Pigs
Now in darkness world stops turning
As the war machine keeps burning
No more war pigs have the power
Hand of God has struck the hour
Day of judgment God is calling
On their knees, the war pigs crawling
Begging mercy for their sins
Satan laughing spreads his wings
Oh Lord yeah

 

[McBell]

The attack on Ozzy Osbourne/Black Sabbath was just that, an attack on the performer and not the music it self.

Personally I think it is a song by song/person by person thing.
Some Christians are stronger in their faith than others.

some Christians have had experiences in life that cause certain songs to create spiritual problems for them that other Christians would say is the best song ever.

This is the big problem with the generalisations and extra ordinarily wide brush strokes.

One of the more interesting things about this whole Ozzy attack is the fact that it was Suicide Solution by Ozzy Osbourne that woke me up and led to my getting ordained.

 

[Ulver]

What can I say other than : "Rock and Roll Saved my Soul"

Black Sabbath
- Under The Sun / Every Day Comes & Goes

Well I don't want no demon to tell me what it's all about
No black magician telling me to get my soul out
Don't believe in violence, I don't even believe in peace
I've opened the door and my mind has been released

Well I don't want no preacher telling me about the god in the sky
No I don't want no one to tell me where I'm gonna go when I die
I wanna live my life with no people telling me what to do
I just believe in myself, 'cause no one else is true

Every day just comes and goes
Life is one big overdose
People try to ruin me
And I can't seem to eliminate them

People riding their real pace
Keep on running their rat race
The ante is risen once a week
In their world of make-believe

So believe what I tell you, it's the only way to fight in the end
Just believe in yourself, you know you really shouldn't have to pretend
don't let those empty people try and interfere with your mind
Just live your life and leave them all behind

Metallica- Lepher Messiah

Spineless from the start, sucked into the part
circus comes to town, you play the lead clown
Please, please
spreading his disease, living by his story
Knees, knees
falling to your knees, suffer for his glory
You will

Time for lust, time for lie
time to kiss your life goodbye
Send me money, send me green
Heaven you will meet
Make a contribution
and you'll get a better seat
Bow to Leper Messiah

Marvel at his tricks, need your Sunday fix
blind devotion came, rotting your brain
Chain, chain
Join the endless chain
Fame, Fame
Infection is the game, stinking drunk with power
We see

Time for lust, time for lie
time to kiss your life goodbye
Send me money, send me green
Heaven you will meet
Make a contribution
and you'll get a better seat
Bow to Leper Messiah

Bow to Leper Messiah
Witchery, weakening
Sees the sheep are gathering
set the trap, hypnotize
now you follow

Time for lust, time for lie
time to kiss your life goodbye
Send me money, send me green
Heaven you will meet
Make a contribution
and you'll get a better seat
Bow to Leper Messiah

Lie.

 

[Bishka]

These are all desires that feed the flesh and because God delivered me from the rock scene, i feel i can speak with knowledge on the subject.

And what if one who believes in God and Christ believe that they don't need to be 'delivered' out of the rock scene. Am I any less saved because I like Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd? Or does my like Matisyhu and Lush counterbalance that out?

 

[sojourner]

I think that the statement was a valid one. Some people do need to be delivered from the rock music scene, if their participation is harmful to them. Some people need to be delivered from food, if that's harmful to them. Some people need to be delivered from painkillers, if that's harmful to them. Some people need to be delivered from alcohol, if that's their bugaboo. Some people just have a jones about certain things.

It's also true that there are a whole lot of people who don't need to be delivered from the rock music scene.

It all depends on how a certain thing impacts your life. Some people just can't handle rock music equitably. And those folks would be wise to get out of it. Just don't assume that one person's deliverance should be everyone's deliverance.

 

[porkchop]

Stimpy, please read posts 48, 49 and 50. Thank you

I have read them, thankyou for the imput, MaddLlama.