Christianity offers wings not weight

[Andal]

That's a bit like saying that you can't know what it's like to swim in lava until you jump in. It doesn't sound much like a tenable position to take.

Who says I haven't "swam in lava"?

 

[slave2six]

What comes to mind is that just at the point where god was testing whether you loved your life, and you didnt, you quit.

You know all the things paul went through right? Surely he did not think 'what a great life!' LOL. His real life was hidden in christ jesus. And he had hope in exactly what you had. He couldnt wait to go to heaven. Thats what kept him going. So through your suffering you lost all hope in this world, but at the crucial time gave up on the hope for heaven.

So your life sucked. Praise god...

I think you are mistaken here. First of all, it took over 40 years to get to the point that I reached. Secondly, the reason that "life sucked" was because of Christianity. I know what you are saying. I have said it many times over across the years. But you are using the Bible as your basis and not reality. Having known both, I know which is the better.

Here is how I see things at present:

• If there is a God, he is good by the highest definition of the term.
• If one attributed to human beings the actions and reasonings that are attributed to God, that person (who was behaving the way God supposedly has) would be either imprisoned or committed to a mental institution.
• Absolutely nothing about the Christian God meets the minimum criterion of being good, let alone "love." N-O-T-H-I-N-G.
• If there is a God, I believe him to be better than Judeo-Christianity has reported about him. I have to. As my wife said, "If the God of the Bible is real, everyone is screwed no matter what they believe."
• Human beings are just that. There is no mystery about why we behave the way we do. Everything that people do is directly related to how their brains function. Everything.
• The cures for feeling bad, bad behavior, and all that in an individual's life can be altered either through self-will or medication. Even Christianity is no help in this matter. Christians are as "flawed" as anyone else and it's still all up to you to will yourself to behave better.
• "I do not seek redemption from the consequences of my sin. I seek to be redeemed from the sin itself, or rather from the very thought of sin. Until I have attained that end, I shall be content to be restless." - Gandhi in response to the Christian idea of redemption and forgiveness.
  
  I agree with this sentiment. If you're genuinely interested in freedom then what Christianity has to offer is not the "new creature" that Paul espoused but simply avoiding the consequences of your behavior when you do "sin." Christianity is a cure for nothing but simply enables people, like Paul, to remain in misery and self-castigation.

If God is going to discard me because I believe He is better than the Christian doctrine teaches then I'll take the punishment. In the meanwhile, I am going to continue to enjoy this life to its fullest.

 

[slave2six]

Some people might object and say that christian theology is so future-oriented that it takes peoples minds off today and turns them into people who only care about their own private spiritual happiness. In other words it does not produce love, it produces escapism.

Is it true that christians fall prey to self-centeredness and escapism?

It is not true.

What you say applies to some, but not to all Christians.

Look at the rise of Christianity in Europe, the Dark Ages that accompanied that rise, the perpetual obsession with the afterlife (including purgatory) during that time, and the reaction of the church when a thousand years later, and then ask yourself if this idea of "the world is passing away" was not at the core not only of the obsession with the afterlife but also the complete separation of church and science. Christianity was the first religion in the world that abhorred the natural world and forsook it completely.

Not every Christian is as I was. But many are. I just cannot reconcile all that has been written about God/Christ or Christianity without seeing that it clearly downplays this life and this world.

 

[slave2six]

thus you could argue there is no right or wrong.

I did not say that there is no right or wrong. What I do know is that there are many things that people regard as "wrong" that certainly are not. If I had fallen in love with my wife 100 years ago, she would have been lynched and I would have been beaten to a bloody pulp simply because she is black and I am white. And many people would have felt that they were simply doing what was right.

I agree that running away in battle, rape, murder and whatnot are not right. But I do not agree that everything that Christianity says is wrong is wrong.

 

[slave2six]

An artist differs from an art critic

What about lava divers vs. Olympic lava diver judges?

 

[slave2six]

Who says I haven't "swam in lava"?

Good luck with that.

 

[Mr Cheese]

What about lava divers vs. Olympic lava diver judges?

Its a metaphor....

Either you have interacted with the divine or you havent

Its like beign a virgin and giving lessons on how to give an orgasm....
You simply wouldnt know what you're talking about....

.......

“Life is effort.” So says the body. “Life is blessing.” So says the
soul. The human in man does not want to go beyond morality,
society and humanity. The divine in man comes down from divinity into humanity,
from unity into multiplicity.
Atmanam viddhi.
Know thyself.
The seers of the Upanishads not only
discovered this Truth Transcendental but offered it to the suffering,
crying and striving mankind. In order to know oneself, one has to
discover oneself first. What is self discovery? Self discovery is
God-Realisation.”

–Sri Chinmoy
http://www.srichinmoy.org/

“The divine manifestation is governed by a certain rhythm, which is present even in the minutest atom. This state of being knows no antitheses, it casts no shadows, and always brings forth itself. Good is not set against evil, nor beauty against ugliness, nor love against hatred, nor reality against delusion. The Gnosis does not have love; it does not radiate love; it IS love.”

- Jan van Rijckenborgh [The Chinese Gnosis ]

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Its like beign a virgin and giving lessons on how to give an orgasm....
You simply wouldnt know what you're talking about....

Most people, especially guys, are experts on achieving orgasm long before they lose their virginity.

 

[Mr Cheese]

Most people, especially guys, are experts on achieving orgasm long before they lose their virginity.

dude...lol

I said GIVING....

i.e. to another person

 

[Andal]

Good luck with that.

I was only speaking in terms of the metaphor you used. My point is how do you know that I or anyone else here hasn't had experience with the divine?

 

[logician]

When it comes to my relationship with God, I live by the JFK rule: Ask not what God can do for you, but what you can do for God.

Exactly what kind of help does a god need?

 

[slave2six]

Either you have interacted with the divine or you haven't...

And my point earlier is that which people call "interacting with the divine" is nothing more than an experience that takes place in the physical brain. Just like those drugs I mentioned. You can take mind-altering drugs and go the rest of your life remembering that this was the most profound "spiritual" experience you have ever had. Except that it wasn't. It was a mental experience that you had.

There is nothing "spiritual" about human beings. Hook someone up to an MRI during a "spiritual" experience and you can see changes in the neural activity. It's all in yer head man.

 

[slave2six]

dude...lol

I said GIVING....

i.e. to another person

Couldn't someone give oral sex and still remain a virgin?

 

[slave2six]

I was only speaking in terms of the metaphor you used. My point is how do you know that I or anyone else here hasn't had experience with the divine?

The same way that I know that there is not an invisible elephant living in your small intestine.

 

[Andal]

The same way that I know that there is not an invisible elephant living in your small intestine.

This is interesting, you know me and my experiences better than myself? Your assertions seem no different than any theist who holds tightly to their beliefs.

 

[slave2six]

This is interesting, you know me and my experiences better than myself? Your assertions seem no different than any theist who holds tightly to their beliefs.

One can't experience that which does not exist. Not only this but there are literal, biological explanations for every "religious" experience - which indicates that it is not "spiritual" in nature but biological.

 

[Andal]

One can't experience that which does not exist. Not only this but there are literal, biological explanations for every "religious" experience - which indicates that it is not "spiritual" in nature but biological.

I live in a universe where both God and science coexist.

To each her own.

 

[AlsoAnima]

In this case it's true. Religion was the cause of my problems back in the day. As I said, it works for some people. If you find Christianity is a good thing for you, then great, but the same can't be true of me.

It's only when I gave up religion that my problems became apparent. For me, allowing myself to believe in the irrational claims of the bible, was like openning a flood gate for all manner of other nonsense. Upon giving it up I began to see things the way they really are.

Sure hun, nothing ever your fault. It's that darn ol' religion.

 

[averageJOE]

Some people might object and say that christian theology is so future-oriented that it takes peoples minds off today and turns them into people who only care about their own private spiritual happiness. In other words it does not produce love, it produces escapism.

Is it true that christians fall prey to self-centeredness and escapism?

It is not true. The strong confidence in the promises of god and a passionate preference for the joy of heaven over the joy of the world FREES a person from worldly self-centerdness, from paralyzing regret and self-pity, from fear and greed and bitterness and despair and laziness and impatience and envy. And instead our hope in christ and in heaven bears the fruit of love.

This sounds like a "Live with your head in the clouds" way of life. I believe one needs to be grounded in reality to live a healthy life. This life now is the heaven or hell we choose to create, and I've choosen it to be my heaven. I believe it is important to understand yourself first before trying to understand others. You need to love yourself first before anyone else can love you back. You need to understand what is best for yourself first before even attempting to know whats best for someone else. This is Self-centerdness. Centering yourself is imortant. How can someone respect you if you don't respect yourself?

Now i contend that in any given day, people are forced to focus on things that are of this world, our jobs our debt our ambition and perhaps a few would spend a few minutes reading the bible.

The bible has nothing to do with a healthy way of life.

Its not heavenly mindedness that hinders love. Its worldy mindedness.
Its because we have our hope in heaven that we are free to have our possessions plundered, to give away all we have if we want to because our treasure is in heaven where moths cannot ruin it. If we were not heavenly minded we would want to hold on to our stuff with all we got, because we will be afraid to not have enough for tomorrow. And god says, that we dont have to worry about this stuff. He will look after us. So the weight of our possessions are lifted from us exactly for the reason that we are heavenly minded, and so for that reason, we are free to give as much as we can and as much as god inspires. Not only our possessions, but our time. If we felt that our time was limited we wouldnt wanna share our time, but because we are heavenly minded we are free to pour our lives out like drink offerings because there is more, much more time, an eternity waiting for us.

Its not that christians believe in escapism, its precisely because they believe in heaven that they are free to spend and be spent for others.

Heneni

As a soldier I have decided to sacrafice my freedom and life for others. I am sacraficing my time. But I would never give up my possessions. I cherrish my family and home. I've worked hard to obtain the things I have. I worked hard to obtain the life I now have. And I'll burn before I have my "possessions plundered". I'll burn before I "give away all I have" in favor of a spiritual pipe dream that is heaven. I make the most of my life and cherrish my possessions (family and home) because our life on this world is limited.

"There is no heaven of glory bright, and no hell where sinners roast. Here and now is our day of torment! Here and now is our day of joy! Here and now is our opportunity!"

There is no room in my life for Christianity. I believe it to offer extreme weight. I do not believe the Christian God exists. If there is a God I believe he/she/it would want and expect us to focus on the life and world we were place in. I don't believe you need religion and an ancient book to find God. Everyone should be free to find God their own way. And I truley believe that Jesus has absolutly NOTHING to do with finding God. Worshiping the life of a mortal man that may or may not have exsisted, in my opinion, is unhealthy.

 

[Humanistheart]

Sure hun, nothing ever your fault. It's that darn ol' religion.

This is quite ignorant of you anima, and it shows your not one inclinded to deep theological or philosphical thought. If you were, you'd know the kind of burden certain religions, in this case, christianity can cause. Also the individual you are attempting to mock isn't talking about all religion, he's talking about the religion he was raised in, again, christianity.
Imagine being an inteligent inquisitive person who's been told that if one doesn't believe in jesus, one will not go to heaven, but suffer in a firey pit of agony and dispair for all eternity. Yet when reading the bible you see jesus, a man who's called perfect, doing so many immoral things that you have to ask yourself, why follow such a man? Then discovering further that, if one reads the bible, it becomes appearent that the so called messiah never fulfilled the messianic prophicies, never earning himself that title. This is the man you have to believe in?