Christianity vs Baha'i

[TransmutingSoul]

Do you think we should live under the law [the covenant delivered by Moses] or by faith [like Abraham]? Or do you think we can live under both?

I think we need to find the Covernant that is applicable to the age we live in and in that way we embrace Christ, who is the First and the Last.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Okay, did Hindus misinterpret something in their Scriptures or do their Scriptures clearly spell out what is meant by reincarnation? I don't think it is a misinterpretation. Just like I don't think the resurrection of Jesus was misinterpreted by the early Christians. I think the gospel writers really believed Jesus had come back to life.

The Key here is, what was the original teaching, where is it recorded as it was offerd?

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Shoghi Effendi says it best, as to how a Baha'i is to see legitimate Faiths of the past;

".... The Faith standing identified with the name of Bahá’u’lláh disclaims any intention to belittle any of the Prophets gone before Him, to whittle down any of their teachings, to obscure, however slightly, the radiance of their Revelations, to oust them from the hearts of their followers, to abrogate the fundamentals of their doctrines, to discard any of their revealed Books, or to suppress the legitimate aspirations of their adherents. Repudiating the claim of any religion to be the final revelation of God to man, disclaiming finality for His own Revelation, Bahá’u’lláh inculcates the basic principle of the relativity of religious truth, the continuity of Divine Revelation, the progressiveness of religious experience. His aim is to widen the basis of all revealed religions and to unravel the mysteries of their scriptures. He insists on the unqualified recognition of the unity of their purpose, restates the eternal verities they enshrine, coordinates their functions, distinguishes the essential and the authentic from the nonessential and spurious in their teachings, separates the God-given truths from the priest-prompted superstitions, and on this as a basis proclaims the possibility, and even prophecies the inevitability, of their unification, and the consummation of their highest hopes.... "

It comes down to what we choose to beleive is from God, or is from our own selves.

As far as reincarnation is concerned, it would be a doctrine that is entered under this comment,

"... distinguishes the essential and the authentic from the nonessential and spurious in their teachings, separates the God-given truths from the priest-prompted superstitions...."

No one offers that we will not be challenged in our faith, if we want a lasting unity.

It all changes when we teach our children new ways and it also proves that Truth is Relative.

I always consider there are many people from a Hindu background that now teach a new meaning about the return of spiritual attributes and that the soul moves on to other worlds of God.

Regards Tony

But to believe in the Baha'i teachings does do away with beliefs that are held by the other religions. If a person thinks their old religion doesn't make sense and sees that the Baha'i Faith makes complete sense, then they will discard the things they used to believe as true that came from their old religion. Like a Born-Again Christian would dump their belief in Satan and a literal 6 day creation and get rid of their belief that Jesus physically rose from the dead. So is the belief in those things "spurious"? Because Baha'i teachings "whittles" them away?

 

[Redemptionsong]

I think we need to find the Covernant that is applicable to the age we live in and in that way we embrace Christ, who is the First and the Last.

Regards Tony

How would you describe the covenant that you live under now?

 

[CG Didymus]

It is not through the teaching of Jesus Christ that people become righteous. It is through repentance, and the indwelling Holy Spirit that people become righteous. Jesus' teaching prepares a person for the coming of the Holy Spirit, but the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, becomes the teacher once he indwells.

Scripture teaches that the body of Jesus Christ was raised as a spiritual body. Jesus Christ showed himself in his new body to demonstrate the reality of the bodily resurrection. He showed himself to the twelve, and upward of five hundred witnesses on one occasion.

That's the thing. Baha'is are saying he did not rise "physically" from the dead but "spiritually". So what happened to the physical body of Jesus? It seems as though Christians are saying it did not decompose but was transformed into a "Glorified" body. Still, I haven't heard any Baha'i support any of the resurrection stories as being real and historical. But a new "Glorified" body could. But then this "Glorified" body is still part physical. It is not pure spirit, because Jesus says "touch me and see... that I have flesh and bone and am not a ghost."

But Baha'is I don't think can even accept that. Some of them have said that they believe the body of Jesus was taken and hidden by his followers and has since turned to dust.

 

[CG Didymus]

The Key here is, what was the original teaching, where is it recorded as it was offerd?

Regards Tony

Yeah, what was the original teaching? And I suppose you mean from a manifestation himself? Do you know?

 

[Redemptionsong]

That's the thing. Baha'is are saying he did not rise "physically" from the dead but "spiritually". So what happened to the physical body of Jesus? It seems as though Christians are saying it did not decompose but was transformed into a "Glorified" body. Still, I haven't heard any Baha'i support any of the resurrection stories as being real and historical. But a new "Glorified" body could. But then this "Glorified" body is still part physical. It is not pure spirit, because Jesus says "touch me and see... that I have flesh and bone and am not a ghost."

But Baha'is I don't think can even accept that. Some of them have said that they believe the body of Jesus was taken and hidden by his followers and has since turned to dust.

It would be interesting to hear more detail. The resurrection of an identifiable Jesus Christ is certainly central to Christian belief.

The resurrection of Jesus Christ needed to be confirmed by touch and appearance, but the ascension of Jesus Christ into heaven was not a physical ascension. IMO, this leaves room for the return of Christ to be spiritual, yet visible, return. Jesus Christ does not need to become a human [of flesh and blood] on earth again. In fact, this would go against the everlasting nature of his reign.

 

[CG Didymus]

Not only is it very clearly stated in a vast array of Hindu scriptures, but thousands of Hindu sages throughout the years, through their meditations, past life memories, etc. have reiterated it, having proved it to themselves. I know of no current Guru who would deny it. Not only that but the practitioners practice it, in unseen ways, like how the funerals are done, training for death, and praying to be born somewhere, or even meeting with your prospective new parents, before you lose the current body. So it's woven right into the daily practice.

And yet, despite all this cumulative personal experience by millions of adherents, we still don't claim it as truth, but simply simply say, "It is our belief."

(I thought the point with that one question you were trying to make was that IT knows nothing of Hinduism, as he didn't even know the Sanskrit term for reincarnation, a very basic Hindu word, and he proved that. But hey, you can't win them all, lol)

As long as folks speak of my faith out of complete ignorance, I'll be responding.

Carry on.

I have no problem with all the religions having different beliefs. Baha'is do have a problem with that. And, since they have to make all major religions fit into a nice little progression, they have to come up with reasons why there are apparent contradictory beliefs. One thing they usually say is that "originally" all major religions told, essentially, the same message... that only the "social" laws changed, but the "spiritual" laws never change.

But anyway, good to hear from you again. Take care.

 

[CG Didymus]

It would be interesting to hear more detail. The resurrection of an identifiable Jesus Christ is certainly central to Christian belief.

The resurrection of Jesus Christ needed to be confirmed by touch and appearance, but the ascension of Jesus Christ into heaven was not a physical ascension. IMO, this leaves room for the return of Christ to be spiritual, yet visible, return. Jesus Christ does not need to become a human [of flesh and blood] on earth again. In fact, this would go against the everlasting nature of his reign.

I just thought of the verse that says, "every eye will see him". And the one about the wars and rumors of wars. I always bring that up to them because if there are still wars and rumors of wars, then doesn't that mean it is not yet the end? And, definitely, not very many "eyes" saw Baha'u'llah when he came. But I'm sure the Baha'is have a "spiritual", "mystical" fulfillment of that.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

But to believe in the Baha'i teachings does do away with beliefs that are held by the other religions. If a person thinks their old religion doesn't make sense and sees that the Baha'i Faith makes complete sense, then they will discard the things they used to believe as true that came from their old religion. Like a Born-Again Christian would dump their belief in Satan and a literal 6 day creation and get rid of their belief that Jesus physically rose from the dead. So is the belief in those things "spurious"? Because Baha'i teachings "whittles" them away?

I know of no Baha'i that sees that they had to whittle away what they once believed.

I see they do consider what they believed, with new frames of reference.

Let's take evil for example. When you know you are Satan with your choices, it just allows oneself to change their choices and to stop blaming a force other than themselves.

To me that makes a stronger Christian, not a weaker one.

Knowing Christ is all the Mesengers, doesn't make a weaker Christian, it makes a stronger Christian who will stand up and learn from all Mesengers, it opens the Gate to the Glory of God, the Father.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How would you describe the covenant that you live under now?

These are my thoughts from Isaiah.

If you read Isaiah Chapter 24, when you get to verse 23, it gives what will be the covenant that we will live under and where it will come from.

Chapter 25 tells of the unfoldment.

Chapter 26 verse 1 the strong city is Achor (Akka)

Chapter 27 continues the story and it gets interesting in verse 12 as Baha'u'llah was Banished from Assyria from the river at Baghdad stopped near two rivers in Egypt on that banishment, one being Alexandria on to verse 13 where the Holy Mount is Mount Carmel, which is where the Laws now goes out from Zion.

The most amazing thing is, when one k ows of Baha'u'llah's Message and Exile, there is scarcely any passage in Bible Prophecy, that can not be attributed to that Message.

I would ask, what is the chances of that?

There is much to offer, I will keep it short, with only a few points to consider, Chapter 28 mentions the Lord of Hosts, which again is a Title of Baha'u'llah.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yeah, what was the original teaching? And I suppose you mean from a manifestation himself? Do you know?

My thoughts would be that the original teaching of Reincarnation would have been built upon by men and has not been recorded in its pure form.

As such, it is up to us to decide what it is today that is being taught, is it from God, or if it is built upon man's thoughts?

I can only answer that for myself.

Regards Tony

 

[Vinayaka]

I have no problem with all the religions having different beliefs. Baha'is do have a problem with that. And, since they have to make all major religions fit into a nice little progression, they have to come up with reasons why there are apparent contradictory beliefs. One thing they usually say is that "originally" all major religions told, essentially, the same message... that only the "social" laws changed, but the "spiritual" laws never change.

But anyway, good to hear from you again. Take care.

Yes, they're unique in that regard. I know of no other group that has that dilemma. It has to be tough to feel obliged to argue with all other religions. Most others don't really give a rat's behind about another religion's beliefs other than to say outright that they disagree, or it's not their belief. Best wishes to you too.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

But to believe in the Baha'i teachings does do away with beliefs that are held by the other religions. If a person thinks their old religion doesn't make sense and sees that the Baha'i Faith makes complete sense, then they will discard the things they used to believe as true that came from their old religion. Like a Born-Again Christian would dump their belief in Satan and a literal 6 day creation and get rid of their belief that Jesus physically rose from the dead. So is the belief in those things "spurious"? Because Baha'i teachings "whittles" them away?

For example if a Christian becomes Bahai, he still believes, Bible is inspired by God, Jesus was the Messiah, He was the Son, He was crucified and sacrificed Himself so mankind may be freed from sin, and right now He is in heaven, and has divine attributes.
If Muslim, becomes Bahai, he still believes Quran is word of God, Muhammad was Messenger of God, and seal of prophets.
Similarly, Buddhists, Hindus, Zoroasterians if they become Bahai, they would still believe their religion was originally revealed by God.

What else did you want?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

It would be interesting to hear more detail. The resurrection of an identifiable Jesus Christ is certainly central to Christian belief.

The resurrection of Jesus Christ needed to be confirmed by touch and appearance, but the ascension of Jesus Christ into heaven was not a physical ascension. IMO, this leaves room for the return of Christ to be spiritual, yet visible, return. Jesus Christ does not need to become a human [of flesh and blood] on earth again. In fact, this would go against the everlasting nature of his reign.

Do you believe when apostles saw Moses and Elijah on the mountain, those Two were physically present there?

 

[Trailblazer]

How can you believe that the Holy Spirit [John 14:26] is brought by a man? Jesus did not bring the Holy Spirit. Jesus was a man, and the Holy Spirit was sent to him by the Father.

At Pentecost, the Father sent the Spirit, through the risen Lord, to the disciples.

'One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.' [Ephesians 4:6] [/quote]
This is all a matter of semantics, how we understand the meaning of the verses. Yes, Jesus was a man, and the Holy Spirit was sent to him by the Father. Then after the Holy Spirit was sent to Jesus, Jesus brought the Holy Spirit to His disciples.

It is, therefore, impossible for a man, such as Baha'u'llah to claim to bring the Holy Spirit. Had he been the Messiah, he would have been the one sinless Son of God. As already shown, only one man fits all the Hebrew prophecy of the 'suffering servant'.

The same process repeated itself when the Holy Spirit was sent to Baha'u'llah by the Father, after which time Baha'u'llah brought the Holy Spirit.

I have never interpreted all the the other chapters of Isaiah that refer to suffering servant so some of them might well refer to Jesus. However, I believe that Isaiah 53 is about Baha’u’llah, and Baha’u’llah was also the Messiah the Jews have been long awaiting. There in the valley of ‘Akká, in sight of holy ‘Carmel’, the entire prophecy of the fifty-third chapter of Isaiah was brought to its fulfilment.

Regarding Isaiah 53:3, Jesus was despised and rejected by certain Jews who wanted Him executed, but He was not rejected by most men. Jesus was a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief, but He was esteemed by many men.

Certainly, Isaiah 53:4 and Isaiah 53:5 could apply to Jesus, but they also apply to Baha’u’llah. However, Isaiah 53:8, Isaiah 53:9, and Isaiah 53:10 cannot apply to Jesus because Jesus was not taken from prison and from judgment, Jesus did not make His grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death. Jesus made his soul an offering for sin, but He did not see his seed and His days were not prolonged, so there is no way Isaiah 53:10 can be about Jesus, and that is why we know it is about someone else who would be the Messiah of the end days.

Isaiah 53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Bahá’u’lláh was rejected by his own countrymen, and was sent into exile. His life was filled with grief and sorrow.

The Emperor Franz Joseph passed within but a short distance of the prison in which Bahá’u’lláh was captive. Louis Napoleon cast behind his back the letter which Bahá’u’lláh sent to him, saying: “If this man is of God, then I am two Gods!” The people of the world have followed in their footsteps.

Isaiah 53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

I read the following words of Bahá’u’lláh concerning his persecution and imprisonment: “Though weariness lay Me low, and hunger consume Me, and the bare rock be My bed, and My fellows the beasts of the field, I will not complain, but will endure patiently … and will render thanks unto God under all conditions … We pray that, out of His bounty—exalted be He—He may release, through this imprisonment, the necks of men from chains and fetters…” The Promised Day is Come, Shoghi Effendi, pp. 42–3.

Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

Bahá’u’lláh was twice stoned, once scourged, thrice poisoned, scarred with hundred-pound chains which cut through his flesh and rested upon the bones of his shoulders. He lived a prisoner and an exile for nearly half a century.

Isaiah 53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

Bahá’u’lláh was taken from the black-pit prison in Tihrán for judgement before the authorities. His death was expected hourly, but he was banished to ‘Iráq and finally to Israel. In the prison-city of ‘Akká, on another occasion, “… the Governor, at the head of his troops, with drawn swords, surrounded (Bahá’u’lláh’s) house. The entire populace, as well as the military authorities, were in a state of great agitation. The shouts and clamour of the people could be heard on all sides. Bahá’u’lláh was peremptorily summoned to the Governorate, interrogated, kept in custody the first night … The Governor, soon after, sent word that he was at liberty to return to his home, and apologized for what had occurred.” God Passes By, Shoghi Effendi, pp. 190–191.

Isaiah 53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

Bahá’u’lláh was buried in the precincts of the Mansion of Bahjí, owned by a wealthy Muslim. He was surrounded by enemies; members of his own family who betrayed his trust after his death and dwelt in homes adjacent to his burial-place.

Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

Bahá’u’lláh did see his ‘seed’. He wrote a special document called the Book of the Covenant, in which he appointed his eldest son to be the Centre of his Faith after his own passing. This very event was also foretold in the prophecies of the Psalms that proclaim:“Also I will make him my first-born higher than the kings of the earth … and my covenant shall stand fast with him.” Psalms 89:27, 28

The ‘first-born’ son of Bahá’u’lláh, was named ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, which means ‘the servant of Bahá’(‘u’lláh). Bahá’u’lláh appointed him as his own successor in his Will and Testament. He called ‘Abdu’l-Baháthe Centre of his Covenant.

Bahá’u’lláh’s days were prolonged. He was born in 1817 and passed away in the Holy Land in 1892. In the last years of his life, Bahá’u’lláh was released from his prison cell. He came out of the prison-city of ‘Akká and walked on the sides of Mount Carmel. His followers came from afar to be with him, and to surround him with their love, fulfilling the words of the prayer of David spoken within a cave: “Bring my soul out of prison, that I may praise thy name: the righteous shall compass me about; for thou shalt deal bountifully with me.” Psalms 142:7.

These events in the valley of ‘Akká with its strong fortress prison had been foreshadowed in Ecclesiastes 4:14: “For out of prison he cometh to reign; whereas also he that is born in his kingdom becometh poor.”

Comments from: Thief in the Night, pp. 155-159

Do you believe that you have the Holy Spirit dwelling within you? [A pertinent question in this discussion!]

I do not believe that the Holy Spirit LIVES inside of the human body. Entrance and exit, descent and ascent, are characteristics of bodies and not of spirits. Intellectual subtleties and mental realities such as the Holy Spirit do not enter, nor come forth, nor descend into the body, but rather they have direct connection to the body through the soul, which is associated with the mind while we are alive in the physical body.

The upshot is that the Holy Spirit has a direct connection to the body through the soul.

 

[Trailblazer]

Okay, did Hindus misinterpret something in their Scriptures or do their Scriptures clearly spell out what is meant by reincarnation?

I really don't know, I'd have to see those scriptures.

I don't think it is a misinterpretation. Just like I don't think the resurrection of Jesus was misinterpreted by the early Christians. I think the gospel writers really believed Jesus had come back to life.

As I have said in the past, there is really no way we can know what the gospel writers believed, or even what they were trying to convey. All we know is that they wrote stories that were convincing to millions of people who believes the the physical body of Jesus rose from the dead, but according to Paul, the resurrection of the dead is not physical, it is spiritual (see verses below)..

Since you and me don't necessarily believe that, then how do we explain it? If a Baha'i says that the gospel story was not literal but symbolic and mistakenly taken as literal, I don't agree. If it didn't happen but the gospel writers said it did happen then they are liars and frauds. If it did happen, and the NT is absolutely true, then most all of us are in big trouble and the Baha'i Faith is false. You got any other ideas?

I do have another idea, that the resurrection stories were misunderstood. Something was seen, but it was not the physical body of Jesus, it was the spiritual body of Jesus. As Redemptionsong said:

"Scripture teaches that the body of Jesus Christ was raised as a spiritual body. Jesus Christ showed himself in his new body to demonstrate the reality of the bodily resurrection. He showed himself to the twelve, and upward of five hundred witnesses on one occasion."
#727 Redemptionsong, Today at 3:32 AM

"True. The body in resurrection is no longer a natural body.
In 1 Corinthians 15:41-44 it says, 'So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.' "
#731 Redemptionsong, Today at 11:45 AM

 

[CG Didymus]

I know of no Baha'i that sees that they had to whittle away what they once believed.

I see they do consider what they believed, with new frames of reference.

Let's take evil for example. When you know you are Satan with your choices, it just allows oneself to change their choices and to stop blaming a force other than themselves.

To me that makes a stronger Christian, not a weaker one.

Knowing Christ is all the Mesengers, doesn't make a weaker Christian, it makes a stronger Christian who will stand up and learn from all Mesengers, it opens the Gate to the Glory of God, the Father.

Regards Tony

Yes, I've heard Baha'is say that they didn't lose their belief in Jesus they gained a belief in all the other supposed manifestations. But, who is that Jesus that they now believe in? It is not the same Jesus that an Evangelical, born-again Christian believes in. And if those Christians are wrong. If they have misinterpreted things in the gospels about Jesus, then those beliefs should be "whittled" away and done away with. But is it a misinterpretation or a pretty good interpretation of what the gospels are saying? If that is so, then it is the gospels themselves that are wrong and misleading.

 

[CG Didymus]

For example if a Christian becomes Bahai, he still believes, Bible is inspired by God, Jesus was the Messiah, He was the Son, He was crucified and sacrificed Himself so mankind may be freed from sin, and right now He is in heaven, and has divine attributes.
If Muslim, becomes Bahai, he still believes Quran is word of God, Muhammad was Messenger of God, and seal of prophets.
Similarly, Buddhists, Hindus, Zoroasterians if they become Bahai, they would still believe their religion was originally revealed by God.

What else did you want?

Hmmm? God "inspired" the Bible? What do you mean by that? He put thoughts into people's heads and had them write things down? Because I know that Baha'is take virtually all Bible stories as being fictional, symbolic stories and are not literal. Yet, Baha'is make some of the characters and the God of the Bible real, historical and literal people... that didn't do the things written about them. From Adam to Jesus, Baha'is don't believe the stories about them as being literally true. So God inspired people to write fictional accounts of these people?

 

[CG Didymus]

I really don't know, I'd have to see those scriptures.

As I have said in the past, there is really no way we can know what the gospel writers believed, or even what they were trying to convey. All we know is that they wrote stories that were convincing to millions of people who believes the the physical body of Jesus rose from the dead, but according to Paul, the resurrection of the dead is not physical, it is spiritual (see verses below)..

I do have another idea, that the resurrection stories were misunderstood. Something was seen, but it was not the physical body of Jesus, it was the spiritual body of Jesus. As Redemptionsong said:

"Scripture teaches that the body of Jesus Christ was raised as a spiritual body. Jesus Christ showed himself in his new body to demonstrate the reality of the bodily resurrection. He showed himself to the twelve, and upward of five hundred witnesses on one occasion."
#727 Redemptionsong, Today at 3:32 AM

"True. The body in resurrection is no longer a natural body.
In 1 Corinthians 15:41-44 it says, 'So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.' "
#731 Redemptionsong, Today at 11:45 AM

Yeah, unlike you, I don't need any of the NT to be true. However, if we are to believe it is inspired of God and all that stuff is true, then it says that he showed himself to be alive and then the verse where he says he has flesh and bone. Could very well be a total lie. The gospel writers could easily have written in things that never happened. But just in case someone really cares, that is what those writers said happened and that there were several witnesses.