Christianity vs Islam

[loverofhumanity]

That Christ was born through miraculous means is in the Gospels, which you apparently have never read but have the gall to want to lecture Christians about. Hilarious. The Gospels of Matthew and Luke make it clear that Mary was a virgin and Joseph wasn't the father. So how did He come to be if that's not true? Are you saying the Gospels lied? Are you accusing Mary of being an adulteress, which is highly offensive?

It's because Jesus is superior to us, and the Gospels do have people worshipping Him as God. He's literally God incarnate. We're not joking when we say that's what we believe. When you have God in the flesh, there's no point in some other religion or prophet. He is what the prophets were pointing to in the first place. Muhammad was just a man, if he even existed as said (I am learning there's a controversy over this). The Holy Spirit is available to all believers and lives inside of us, as well.

Not at all. We believe in the virgin birth and so does the Quran. There are many passages in the Bible where Christ says His Father is greater than Him or He is doing the Will of the Father or no man knows the hour except the Father or that He is doing the Will of the Father Who sent Him and as well He prays to the Father. To me it is abundantly clear that Jesus and God are two separate Entities although He was at one with God. I was a Catholic and they taught me the trinity which I later discovered was not part of the Bible. There is no reference in the Bible whatsoever stating Christ is God nor to worship Him in the flesh . It says God is a Spirit and to worship God in the Spirit. To worship the body then according to the Bible is not supported.

I have great Christian friends who visit and we get along very well and never force our beliefs on one another. So although we have our differences we love each other and that is what’s really important so even though you and I see things differently you are my brother and I always welcome you.

 

[loverofhumanity]

No, I'm really not interested. If you honestly think that all books have hidden messages, you are not the sort of person I think I can have a reasonable conversation with.

I have discovered many hidden truths and mysteries that once unfolded revealed incredible truths such as Muhammad being foretold in both the Old and New Testament right down to the major sects of Islam. But if you dont want to know then I suppose that’s your prerogative which of course I respect.

 

[justaguy313]

According to Shia Hadiths this refers to the family of the reminder, ie. The Imams (a).

The context in Surah Anbiya is with respect to signs in form of miracles. In this context, it says go ahead and ask the family of the reminder if you do not know. But these are not the only type of signs we can seek from them, as the context in Surah Nahl is about explanation of the revelation, so we should seek those signs and proofs from them as well.

The Satanic whisper and magic blinds people to the obvious context, and manifest flow.

Who were sent before Prophet Muhammad sawa except prophets and messengers mentioned in the Bible?

The Tafsir of the verse 7 in Surah Al Anbiya says:

from Suleyman Al Zarary, from Muhammad Bin Khalid Al Taylasi, from Al A’la Bin Razeyn Al Qala’a, from Muhammad Bin Muslim,

(It has been narrated) from Abu Ja’far asws, that he said, ‘I said to him asws, ‘There are some from us who are alleging that the Words of Allah azwj Mighty and Majetsic [21:7] so ask the People of the Reminder if you do not know, they are the Jews and the Christians’.

-Basaair Al Darajaat – P 1 Ch 19 H 10

And the context of the whole Surah Al Anbiya is about prophets and messengers

 

[1213]

Christians do not believe in Muhammad. They also do not believe that Jesus was a Messenger. They believe He was God.

Many Christians don't believe even Jesus. But, by what the Bible tells, Jesus is the Messenger of God:

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Tim. 2:5
"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, Because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the bro-kenhearted, To proclaim release to the captives, Recovering of sight to the blind, To deliver those who are crushed, And to pro-claim the acceptable year of the Lord."… …"I must preach the good news of the Kingdom of God to the other cities also. For this reason I have been sent."
Luke 4:18-19, 43
Jesus therefore answered them, "My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me.
John 7:16
For I spoke not from myself, but the Father who sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
John 12:49

Do you know did Muhammad say something that is not already in the Bible?

 

[Dimi95]

Seems like you don't believe in religion that you claim to support.

"There are four types of people: One who says, "What is mine is yours, and what is yours is mine" is a boor. One who says "What is mine is mine, and what is yours is yours" -- this is a median characteristic; others say that this is the character of Sodom. One who says, "What is mine is yours, and what is yours is yours" is a chassid [pious person]. And one who says "What is mine is mine, and what is yours is mine" is wicked."
Pirkei Avot (Ethics of our Fathers) 5:10

He who has knowledge of the truth is a free man, but the free man does not sin, for "He who sins is the slave of sin" (Jn 8:34). Truth is the mother, knowledge the father. Those who think that sinning does not apply to them are called "free" by the world. Knowledge of the truth merely makes such people arrogant, which is what the words, "it makes them free" mean. It even gives them a sense of superiority over the whole world. But "Love builds up" (1 Co 8:1). In fact, he who is really free, through knowledge, is a slave, because of love for those who have not yet been able to attain to the freedom of knowledge. Knowledge makes them capable of becoming free. Love never calls something its own, [...] it [...] possess [...]. It never says,"This is yours" or "This is mine," but "All these are yours". Spiritual love is wine and fragrance. All those who anoint themselves with it take pleasure in it. While those who are anointed are present, those nearby also profit (from the fragrance). If those anointed with ointment withdraw from them and leave, then those not anointed, who merely stand nearby, still remain in their bad odor. The Samaritan gave nothing but wine and oil to the wounded man. It is nothing other than the ointment. It healed the wounds, for "love covers a multitude of sins" (1 P 4:8).

-Gospel of Phillip, Nag Hammadi Codex II

Artwork - The Hidden Spiritual Language of the Book of Deuteronomy (PaRDeS)

View attachment 87069

From the same source:
The Lord said, "Blessed is he who is before he came into being. For he who is, has been and shall be."

John 1:14 reads:
"The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us."

You read Ethics of the Fathers , interesting...

How do you identify yourself from those 4 kind of people?

 

[Dimi95]

So do I, because it has not been corrupted by Christianity, who tried to make Jesus into God.

You claim what you can not prove.

 

[Revoltingest]

Quran says people should believe Jesus. Therefore I think Christianity wins.

“…The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah… …believe in Allah and His messengers…”
Quran 4:171, Surat An-Nisa' [4:171] - The Noble Qur'an - القرآن الكريم

But the Bible is a corrupted message.
It's an interpretation of translation of a translation.
The Koran is in its original language.
So I've heard to justify Islam as the one true faith.

I've asked people..."Why is your religion the
singularly correct one out of the many?"
They'll respond with it being the only one
with this or that. People of different religions
will simply substitute different thises or thats.
This larger picture is unavailable to them.
What a shame.
We could have fewer wars.

 

[Dimi95]

That's true, but the Qur'an says people should …believe in Allah and His messengers…” which includes Muhammad.
Christians do not believe in Muhammad. They also do not believe that Jesus was a Messenger. They believe He was God.

Therefore I think Islam wins.

Quran 31:15 (The Wise)
"But if they strive To make the join In worship with Me Things of which thou hast No knowledge, obey them not ; Yet bear them company In this life with justice (And consideration), and follow The way of those who Turn to Me (in love) : In the End the return Of you all is to Me, And I will tell you The truth (and meaning) Of all that ye did."

Thr Qur'an had warned it's readers in the Q (2: 6–23), that it treats a reader the way you approached it.

 

[Starise]

I think it comes down to the prophet Muhammad who as we Christians see it 'modified' the bible into a new religion which rejects the threads all through what we call our Old Testament pointing to Jesus. Since we don't see Muhammad as a valid prophet, we reject his teachings.

Like most religions, there are many good things in that religion, but also many misleading things which lead to misleading world views. I have met a few Islamic people who are great people, which really doesn't prove or disprove their religion.

There is a very common tendency in some Bible religions to have been changed radically by a 'prophet'. These then branch off into a totally new spin. 7th Day Adventists, Jehovah's witnesses, and yes I believe Islam has adopted the early scriptures and then Muhammad came along with his 'revelations'. I find it interesting that these guys all claim there was a being of light that came to them and gave them instructions.

Since Christians are aware that satan is a being of light and since what those prophets said contradicts what the rest of our book says, it is unacceptable to us. All prophets have to be approved. Jesus never claimed to be a prophet. He claimed to be the Son of God and is mentioned as present before He was born, so He has been around since creation, but was sent as human to minister to humans. No less God.

 

[Dimi95]

But the Bible is a corrupted message.
It's an interpretation of translation of a translation.

That is an assamption of how it could be corrupted.

So by saying this you deny the possibility that those people spoke more then one language.
This is the criteria you are using.

When you are multilingual person you are able to preserve the message.

So you are assuming from the very begining that they were not able to.

That's just an assumption and does not define corrupted.

The Koran is in its original language.
So I've heard to justify Islam as the one true faith.

Why did Uthman ibn Affan(ra) order to burn all but his codex?

I've asked people..."Why is your religion the
singularly correct one out of the many?"
They'll respond with it being the only one
with this or that. People of different religions
will simply substitute different thises or thats.
This larger picture is unavailable to them.
What a shame.
We could have fewer wars.

What is shame is that most fail to see that large picture that in some way is unavailable to you also.

What is crucial is to have the same consistency of moral and ethics in all war crimes.

Richard boyd barrett
"I also find it remarkable when we say we must brake our dependency on Russian fossil fuel and oil,and at the very same time we increase our imports of Saudi oil.Ironically the Saudi Arabia this year has doubled its import of Russian oil and is effectievly laundering Russian oil , but we are now importing more of the Saudi dictatorship,one of the most brutal dictatorships in the world,that just like Vladimir Putin is engaged in a 15 year long war against the people of Yemen that has claimed the life of tens of thousands of people"

We could have fewer wars , only if everybody was able to see the trash in their own backyard and at least if they tried to remove it.

What also most fail to see is how religion is used in politics.
Or should i say , how politics is using religion as a puppy?

 

[Link]

Who were sent before Prophet Muhammad sawa except prophets and messengers mentioned in the Bible?

The Tafsir of the verse 7 in Surah Al Anbiya says:

from Suleyman Al Zarary, from Muhammad Bin Khalid Al Taylasi, from Al A’la Bin Razeyn Al Qala’a, from Muhammad Bin Muslim,

(It has been narrated) from Abu Ja’far asws, that he said, ‘I said to him asws, ‘There are some from us who are alleging that the Words of Allah azwj Mighty and Majetsic [21:7] so ask the People of the Reminder if you do not know, they are the Jews and the Christians’.

-Basaair Al Darajaat – P 1 Ch 19 H 10

And the context of the whole Surah Al Anbiya is about prophets and messengers

Salam

Whoever quoted that hadith (not saying you originally) flat out lied about it.

I don't want to derail the thread: Shia hadiths have it designated that "Ahlul-Thikr" is the family of the reminder.

We can discuss it there.

 

[Dimi95]

We don't know for sure what happened (according to Qur'an).
We just know that Jesus did not DIE on the cross .. not that he wasn't put on it..
Maybe .. maybe not.

You deny the book you read.

Sūra 19: Maryam, or Mary


20.
She said : “ How shall I Have a son, seeing that No man has touched me, And I am not unchaste ? ”
21. He said : “ So (it will be) : Thy Lord saith, ‘ That is Easy for Me : and (We Wish) to appoint him As a Sign unto men And a Mercy from Us ’ : It is a matter (So) decreed.”
22. So she conceived him, And she retired with him To a remote place.
23. And the pains of childbirth Drove her to the trunk Of a palm-tree : She cried (in her anguish) : “ Ah ! would that I had Died before this ! would that I had been a thing Forgotten and out of sight ! ”
24. But (a voice) cried to her From beneath the (palm-tree) : “ Grieve not ! for thy Lord Hath provided a rivulet Beneath thee ;
25. “ And shake towards thyself The trunk of the palm-tree : It will let fall Fresh ripe dates upon thee
26. “ So eat and drink And cool (thine) eye. And if thou dost see Any man, say, ‘ I have Vowed a fast to (God) Most Gracious, and this day Will I enter into no talk With any human being.’ ”
27. At length she brought The (babe) to her people, Carrying him (in her arms). They said : “ O Mary ! Truly an amazing thing Hast thou brought !
28. “ O sister of Aaron ! Thy father was not A man of evil, nor thy Mother a woman unchaste ! ”
29. But she pointed to the babe. They said : “ How can we Talk to one who is A child in the cradle ? ”
30. He said : “ I am indeed A servant of God : He hath given me Revelation and made me A prophet ;
31. “ And He hath made me Blessed wheresoever I be, And hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long As I live ;
32. “ (He) hath made me kind To my mother, and not Overbearing or miserable ;
33. “ So Peace is on me The day I was born, The day that I die, And the day that I Shall be raised up To life (again) ” !
34. Such (was) Jesus the son Of Mary : (it is) a statement Of truth, about which They (vainly) dispute.
35. It is not befitting To (the majesty of) God That He should beget A son. Glory be to Him ! When He determines A matter, He only says To it, “ Be ”, and it is.

 

[LuisDantas]

The differences between Islam and Christianity are IMO significant, but oddly both underestimated and overestimated.

Most of the significant differences come from how utterly theocentric Islam is.

 

[Dimi95]

Not at all. We believe in the virgin birth and so does the Quran. There are many passages in the Bible where Christ says His Father is greater than Him or He is doing the Will of the Father or no man knows the hour except the Father or that He is doing the Will of the Father Who sent Him and as well He prays to the Father. To me it is abundantly clear that Jesus and God are two separate Entities although He was at one with God. I was a Catholic and they taught me the trinity which I later discovered was not part of the Bible. There is no reference in the Bible whatsoever stating Christ is God nor to worship Him in the flesh . It says God is a Spirit and to worship God in the Spirit. To worship the body then according to the Bible is not supported.

You assume there is no reference.

Mary Visits Elizabeth

Luke 1:39-45
"At that time Mary got ready and hurried to a town in the hill country of Judea, where she entered Zechariah’s home and greeted Elizabeth.When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.In a loud voice she exclaimed: “Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the child you will bear! But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the baby in my womb leaped for joy.Blessed is she who has believed that the Lord would fulfill his promises to her!”

Why is she saying to Mary , what i have noted?

I have great Christian friends who visit and we get along very well and never force our beliefs on one another. So although we have our differences we love each other and that is what’s really important so even though you and I see things differently you are my brother and I always welcome you.

This is very lovely

John 13:34
"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another."

But just because i question , does not mean that i do not love.

Peace

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

Christianity vs Islam

To an outsider of both religions who has little interest in their theological differences, the principle difference between the two is that Christianity has been subjected to several centuries of humanistic influence since the Enlightenment. Christians accept democracy and women's rights for example more readily that Muslims, but less than humanists, and this isn't coincidence.

The principle differences between the two religions is in the rendering. On paper, the two look very much alike. Christians and Muslims each revere a Semitic desert god that is an angry and harshly judgmental strongman who requires worship and submission and who is very interested in your sex life and what you eat.

Believers of both attend temples (Mosques or churches) and obey paternalistic, misogynisitic clergy.

Both religions embrace magical thinking, mythology, dogma, the supernatural, and ritual.

Each feature demons angels, prayer, an afterlife, a judgment, and a system of reward and punishment after death.

Both religions are patriarchal, authoritarian, misogynistic, sexually repressive, anhedonisitic, atheophobic, homophobic, antiscientiific, use psychological terrorism on their children, have violent histories featuring torture, genocide and terrorism, and demand obedience and submission.

Each consider faith a virtue and reason a problem.

Each has a history of opposing human rights and science.

Each advocates theocracy over democracy.

But the West has moved further from this than the Muslim world for the reasons given, so the two religions don't look nearly as alike now as they did before one began being transformed by a new ideology.

 

[Link]

You deny the book you read.

Nabi Isa (a) will die one day, but according to Quran, before that happens, there will not remain a people of the book but that will believe in him.

 

[Link]

I think the old testament is severely corrupted while Gospels are minorly corrupted. To prove what I'm saying, I see a lot of parallels between Gospels and hadiths of Imams (a): Gospels and Shiite hadiths match up.

I think Paul's explanation of Gospels and parts of old testament (like Lut (a) being righteous) line up with Islam more then Christianity. In fact, the Paul explanation can be seen directly explaining the Imamate from Adam (a) till now scenario, as that is why he talks about the leader before Ibrahim (a) and emphasizes on God's choice of righteous individuals including Lot (a) who is not righteous and righteous per the Torah (a contradiction).

Paul was most likely a saint, and Simon was a successor of Jesus (a) in some capacity in leadership while the spiritual pole leading and behind scenes role and holy spirit position was continued by Elyas (a) till Mohammad (s) came.

To understand that Elyas (a) was the Guide who can perform miracles and Simon (a) was a saint but not pre-chosen by God like Prophets (a) and the two successions carried the flag till Mohammad (s) is to understand the succession to Mohammad (s) right now and to understand the two representations of leadership during Ghayba.

The Gospels over all are perfect and sublime, just misunderstood and mistranslated.

That said, the other type of succession (from Simon (a)) as fallible, volatile, and corruptible, same with the clergy of Shiites. This is why balance, check, and accountability of scholars of what they say, is necessary. We can't just blind follow clergy and expect the results as if following Imams (a) through them. A lesson learned is when falsehood was spoken by clergy in Christianity, it eventually lead to trinity. We should then acknowledge that scholars can inherit corruption in religion and lead others astray.

 

[Dimi95]

I was a Catholic and they taught me the trinity which I later discovered was not part of the Bible.

The Roman church oriented themselfs differently when The Great Schism happend.
We do not belive in same doctorines.

They left the traditional teachings the moment they invented new one.
They lost the right to call themselfs Catholics.

 

[metis]

The Roman church oriented themselfs differently when The Great Schism happend.
We do not belive in same doctorines.

They left the traditional teachings the moment they invented new one.
They lost the right to call themselfs Catholics.

The Church has always been dynamic while adjusting to new situations and rethinking some previous positions. What sometimes has been forgotten, imo, is to make agape the #1 priority in all matters.

 

[Dimi95]

I think the old testament is severely corrupted while Gospels are minorly corrupted. To prove what I'm saying, I see a lot of parallels between Gospels and hadiths of Imams (a): Gospels and Shiite hadiths match up.

I think Paul explanation of Gospels and parts of old testament (like Lut (a) being righteous) line up with Islam more then Christianity. In fact, the Paul explanation can be seen directly explaining the Imamate from Adam (a) till now scenario, as that is why he talks about the leader before Ibrahim (a) and emphasizes on God's choice of righteous individuals including Lot (a) who is not righteous and righteous per the Torah (a contradiction).

This is one of the reasons i like to speak to Shia rather then Sunni.

You seek to find consensus.

I have tried several times to engage in a conversation with you about the Quran , but somehow you disapear.

Why do you belive that Jesus did not die?