Christianity's hidden privilege

[Starlight]

As a society, we've arranged our schedule around Christianity: Christian days of worship and holidays are "standard" days off work. Other religions don't get this privilege. This has lots of effects that disadvantage non-Christians.

As an example (I'm a transportation engineer, so my brain goes to traffic impacts), say you have a plot of land next to a high school that you're looking to develop. You have in mind a place of worship for 1000 people... but what do you build?

If you build a mosque there, the peak of site traffic is going to be on Friday afternoon, just when the high school - and background traffic - is at its busiest. This can often mean that to build a mosque, you'd need expensive traffic upgrades: maybe building a left turn lane, or lengthening turn lanes at a nearby intersection. Expensive stuff.

OTOH, if you build a church there, the peak of site traffic is going to be on Sunday morning. There will be no traffic from the high school and background traffic will be light. Odds are that the road network can accommodate the church without expensive upgrades.

This difference in direct cost - which will end up as a major difference in out-of-pocket cost to the members of a religious congregation - can be traced back entirely to privileged treatment of Christianity: we shut a lot of our society down on Christian holy days, but Islam isn't afforded the same luxury.

So... what should be done about this? Do you agree that the mosque is being treated in a discriminatory way (maybe not deliberately, but discriminatory in effect)? If so, how should we as a society respond?

According to your logic, muslims in islamic countries has also privilege

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

According to your logic, muslims in islamic countries has also privilege

That's right.

 

[Debater Slayer]

According to your logic, muslims in islamic countries has also privilege

They often do compared to non-Muslims, even more so than Christians in relatively secular countries like the U.S.

 

[Left Coast]

Some of it, but not all.

Just because one group is in the majority doesn't mean other groups can't or shouldn't be accommodated. We have scattered examples of where this has happened... such as the Canadian university that - until 2008 - would close on Yom Kippur and Rosh Hashanah.

I would think this would depend on the size of the minority to some extent. If you've got a sizeable minority of folks who all want a certain holiday or day of the week off, eventually demand is going to build enough that businesses and other institutions will start catering to that. I don't think that's unique to religion - were seeing it with expectations now about teleworking.

Yes and no.

Some workplaces and the like need to coordinate schedules, so everyone needs to have the same days off (e.g. a manufacturing plant), but these days, it's mostly the jobs that ought to be flexible that are Monday-to-Friday jobs. A Christian nurse, line cook or commercial pilot is still probably working Sundays.

Then isn't that an indication that this really isn't about religious discrimination? If Christians in various jobs are being required to work on Sundays? When I was a Christian I would often have to go to work at my job in retail after church on Sunday afternoons.

A lot of office workers already have flex time: they have "core hours" in the middle of the day when meetings are scheduled that everyone needs to be there for, but apart from that, any start time is okay as long as they put in their required hours for the day.

It wouldn't be that big a deal to tweak that sort of program slightly to say that "core hours" are only on Tuesday to Thursday, and employees can work any time throughout the week they want as long as they work all the weekly hours they're supposed to.

Sure, I wouldn't mind that. Until someone comes along and says their religion's holy day is Wednesday. Are we now discriminating against that person if we keep our core hours the same, given that they work for everyone else in the company?

I see this less as some sort of proactive "discrimination" against people and more just a function of a group or cultural norm operating that doesn't always work for everyone all the time. It's not always feasible to accommodate everyone's preferences, so we come to reasonable compromises as a society, usually based on what works for most people.

 

[Viker]

The U. S. was founded and built on Christian principles

Not.

There are many other countries where people can go if they are made uncomfortable by Christian principles. North Korea sounds like a wonderful place. Maybe try living there.

Sure. There's even other "Christian" countries, like
Norway, that are very tolerant towards other religions and beliefs. The US doesn't corner the market on religious freedom/tolerance any longer, and looks like it's slipping from that altogether.

Why don't you try North Korea? It's a great place for Christians to proselytize. You could save the soul of North Korea.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

And we are now a secular society that supposedly respects freedom of religion. There is supposed to be no government establishment of religion and laws are supposed to be neutral when it comes to religion.

If you like theocracies, maybe Iran is more to your taste?

Do you even know what an "established" religion is? Probably not.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Speaking for America and it's true in Canada really. These have been majority Christians nations for hundreds of years. You can talk about separation of church and state but that doesn't mean the people themselves aren't majority Christian. Would you go to Saudi Arabia and demand they accommodate Christian holy days? This is nonsense. Really it's bigoted towards Christians and yet accusing Christians of being somehow "privileged".

Middle Eastern countries have an official religion. The US doesn't. Europe does, and the religions get money, so they don't have to worry about proselytizing, so now people mostly only go to church to get married and buried. Maybe we should do that. It may have a benefit in that they stop trying to get into government and bugging people to convert.

 

[Viker]

Do you even know what an "established" religion is? Probably not.

It's generally an excuse used to deny other religions legitimacy and equal treatment.

Otherwise, our government is restricted from establishing a state or official religion. That is what they meant.

 

[Rival]

Middle Eastern countries have an official religion. The US doesn't. Europe does, and the religions get money, so they don't have to worry about proselytizing, so now people mostly only go to church to get married and buried. Maybe we should do that. It may have a benefit in that they stop trying to get into government and bugging people to convert.

Europe is a vast collection of countries and has no official religion.

 

[Sand Dancer]

Europe is a vast collection of countries and has no official religion.

Sorry, I mean each country has an official religion, not the whole of Europe.

 

[Viker]

Europe is a vast collection of countries and has no official religion.

Europe, no. Many European countries do have official/state religions. They're just not full on theocracies (except the Vatican) or jerks about it.

 

[Rival]

Sorry, I mean each country has an official religion, not the whole of Europe.

This is not true. France is a case in point. Europe is complex.

 

[Bathos Logos]

I'm not sure what you're trying to suggest: that Chick-fil-A should be legally required to open on Sunday, or that nearby business owners should try to pressure the Chick-fil-A's landlord to evict them and replace them with another tenant who's open 7 days a week?

Well... I was technically stating that I didn't think there was any such request for action that need be taken seriously. Basically, my vote was for not opening the can of worms in the first place. So, it would actually be you who needed to tell me what such "discriminatory" practices should warrant in terms of appropriate punishments/fine/requirements/etc. if you deem these traffic issues due, in part, to religious observance, to be some sort of crime worthy of such.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Do you think public school teachers should be allowed to wear religious garb in class?

Both my wife and I openly wear pentacles in the public schools we work at. We figure that since others have crosses it's only fair. ;-)

 

[Polymath257]

According to your logic, muslims in islamic countries has also privilege

Yes, often they do.

 

[Ella S.]

The U. S. was founded and built on Christian principles

The US was founded by Deists who promoted separation of Church and State precisely because many of them rejected the Christian principles of the Church.

We also stole the general design of the country from the Iroquois Confederacy, and the concept of human rights integral to our constitution was formed as a secular alternative to religious commandments by non-Christian figures like Thomas Paine.

 

[Sand Dancer]

This is not true. France is a case in point. Europe is complex.

I looked it up and I guess only 3 countries have an official language. I stand corrected.

 

[Watchmen]

As a society, we've arranged our schedule around Christianity: Christian days of worship and holidays are "standard" days off work. Other religions don't get this privilege. This has lots of effects that disadvantage non-Christians.

As an example (I'm a transportation engineer, so my brain goes to traffic impacts), say you have a plot of land next to a high school that you're looking to develop. You have in mind a place of worship for 1000 people... but what do you build?

If you build a mosque there, the peak of site traffic is going to be on Friday afternoon, just when the high school - and background traffic - is at its busiest. This can often mean that to build a mosque, you'd need expensive traffic upgrades: maybe building a left turn lane, or lengthening turn lanes at a nearby intersection. Expensive stuff.

OTOH, if you build a church there, the peak of site traffic is going to be on Sunday morning. There will be no traffic from the high school and background traffic will be light. Odds are that the road network can accommodate the church without expensive upgrades.

This difference in direct cost - which will end up as a major difference in out-of-pocket cost to the members of a religious congregation - can be traced back entirely to privileged treatment of Christianity: we shut a lot of our society down on Christian holy days, but Islam isn't afforded the same luxury.

So... what should be done about this? Do you agree that the mosque is being treated in a discriminatory way (maybe not deliberately, but discriminatory in effect)? If so, how should we as a society respond?

What’s your response to the millions (or billions) who live in non-Christian countries but still have Saturdays and Sundays off?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well... I was technically stating that I didn't think there was any such request for action that need be taken seriously. Basically, my vote was for not opening the can of worms in the first place. So, it would actually be you who needed to tell me what such "discriminatory" practices should warrant in terms of appropriate punishments/fine/requirements/etc. if you deem these traffic issues due, in part, to religious observance, to be some sort of crime worthy of such.

Actually, my thought was that maybe the mosque should get some sort of financial support so that it's as easy to build a mosque as it is to build a church.

I wouldn't want this to be funded by the current tax base, so I'm not that clear on where the money should come from, but that's kinda where my brain was headed.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What’s your response to the millions (or billions) who live in non-Christian countries but still have Saturdays and Sundays off?

Which countries, specifically?

If you're talking about former colonies of European countries, then we're still talking about catering to Christians.