Christians: am I saved? (eternal salvation)

[Lekatt]

I was vibing with your response until I got here. You are absolutely wrong in your assertion. My whole life is not a few years either.

"I suspect" is the key phrase here. You are wrong.

I reconciled a literalistic interpretation of Genesis with critical thinking. It's called the Omphalos Hypothesis.

I love the last sentence there. Those who reject the Bible as literal truth want an excuse to live a self serving life. I love it because of how wrong it is.

DUDE! OMG! It was APOLOGETICS that killed my Christian faith for good. Man I read apologetics and studied it earnestly all throughout highschool and allowed myself to be convinced by it. Then I tried using apologetics here on RF and the wise folk here shot my posts full of holes. Apologetics is weak. I have Christian apologetic books in my collection Evidence that Demands a Verdict for example. I tried reading that book again this year with an actual open mind and I was offended at the lack of intellectuality in the arguments for apologetics!

I would not want anyone to fear the afterlife. Heaven and Hell are so immersed in doctrine that you could argue forever and never solve anything. Salvation is a doctrine of some Christian Churches, but not all of them. It is only doctrine.

Remember Jesus said: "the Kingdom of God is within you."

There is only a spiritual world in which we are created and eventually find our way into the physical world for training. When we die, we return to the spiritual world where we were created. Now the teachings of Jesus will show you the spiritual path that leads to growth and great knowledge of all things.

Do not fear the afterlife, just work on following Jesus' instructions on living life and you will understand.

 

[Tinkerpeach]

I think you missed a few of the central points and questions - 1) Existence is Eternal --- the question is then salvtion from what ? ... ohh our Sins .. No silly .. what is the purpose of Salvation .. after the cleansing away of Sin .. why would some one want such a thing .. what is the Prize ? did you miss the question ? I think not .. as is rhetorical as much as anything

"The Prize" = ?? not just Eternal Life .. a doctrine otherwise is not taught in the Bible .. but Eternal life not suffering eternal Torture.

So what is it you mean by once saved .. always saved .. is way unclear in space and time .. but to say what it is that "YOU think you mean ... and I have to guess at this point because you have not clarified .. is that a person who is "Saved" while here on the Earth .. can lose that ticket through the pearly gates while still here on earth .. if they do What ?? (insert clarificatio statement here)

I never said this silly doctrine was taught in the Bible - "once saved - always saved" so why have you put such word in the Mouth of the Prophet .. tell you when and where the sun shine come .. the way the Truth the Light.. which clearly you are running from or perhaps better put deflecting in failing to address the central points.

"Followers of Christ" (FOC)- followed by some suggesting that I am not part of this group .. in a backhanded way I know .. but is FINE .. as much as it is ironic and prophetic .. the words of the Prophet come true .... your deflection and subsequent projection .. your failings onto others !? (and do learn chess notation .. will help the progression towards enlighenment)

How .. and how not .. can ye be called FOC - if you don't know what following Christ means .. following what = The teachings of Christ.. and what are those .. with respect to the question of Salvation .. and how one achieves this prize ... avoids the bad place .. Hot Hot Hot. .. Some claim one can earn a free pass through Judgement .. which I find highly desirable.. but highly heretical ... for the Sola Fide adherents in the room.

So tell us .... I really want to know .. like the Rich Man ....following Jesus around saying "Savior" What must I do to be put right with God .. to get into heaven .. ? .

And with that the Floor is yours. -- What are the teachings of Jesus I must follow -->>>> to get the ticket into heaven .. pass through Judgement and not be thrown into the place of eternal torture. Por Favor !!

So tell us .... I really want to know .. like the Rich Man ....following Jesus around saying "Savior" What must I do to be put right with God .. to get into heaven .. ? .

And with that the Floor is yours. -- What are the teachings of Jesus I must follow -->>>> to get the ticket into heaven .. pass through Judgement and not be thrown into the place of eternal torture. Por Favor !!

To answer your question directly you must accept that Jesus died on the cross for your sins, accept that, they try to live the best Christian life you can. Failure doesn't matter as long as you haven't lost the faith and are still trying.

We will all fail because we are with sin.

Now if you say the words but reject Jesus by not trying to live the life then God doesn't know you, you aren't even trying, it doesn't matter what you meant at the time of your acceptance of salvation. You can't simply be saved then go and do whatever you want.

 

[Sargonski]

To answer your question directly you must accept that Jesus died on the cross for your sins, accept that, they try to live the best Christian life you can. Failure doesn't matter as long as you haven't lost the faith and are still trying.

We will all fail because we are with sin.

Now if you say the words but reject Jesus by not trying to live the life then God doesn't know you, you aren't even trying, it doesn't matter what you meant at the time of your acceptance of salvation. You can't simply be saved then go and do whatever you want.

That was not a direct answer by any stretch .. quite missing the mark .. to the question of following the teachings of Jesus on the subject of Salvation ... a claim in this direction normally requiring some vestage of scriptural support .. as opposed to repetition of denominational dogma .. the meaning of which the adherent has normally thought little about.

For Example -- Jesus gives a Sermon on this subject "how to get through pearly gates" .. 101 - perhaps you have heard of the Sermon on the Mount.... Matt 5-7 .. which opens

Blessed are the Poor in Spirit - for Theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven

nowhere do we find that one must accept that Jesus was a human sacrifice .. the Scapegoat .. in order to get through the gates .. and in fact nowhere does Jesus put the emphasis on belief in him .. and in fact .. quite the reverse .. such that it is not you who is following the Teachings of Jesus .. but in fact doing the Reverse ? .. following man made dogma .. as opossed to heeding the words of Jesus in relation to this subject.


Did you think Lord Sataniel -- a Divinity with God-Like Powers -- the great deceiver and Tester of mankind ... was going to show up with Horns -Red Cape and a Tail ?

Matt 7: 15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

On the basis of works .. the bad ones recognized .. not going to find any Salvation by Faith formulation in this Sermon.. quite the contrary .. Those with Faith but no works do not make it .. repeated in James 2 .. called the doctrine of Fools "Salvation by Faith Alone" Sola Fide

Not all who call out "Lord Lord" .. make it .. Says the Teacher .. but "Only those that do the will of my Father who is in Heaven"

Do you understand ? --- This is not about what Fundamentalist Paster Phil .. or Catholic Priest Joe .. or about what Idol Martin Luther has to say .. but What Jesus has to say - in this Sermon .. the subject of which is how to achieve Salvation. and in this sermon .. there is no requirement to believe in Jesus personally .. have faith in his act of self sacrifice .. .. what you are to believe in are the Teachings of Jesus .. that this is the true Path .. the way .. the light. which tell us how to be put right with God

Only those that do the Will of the Father .. which according to Jesus is what ? .. From This Sermon the last paragraph

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

One must put the words into practice .. faith alone will do you no good .. "Even Demons believe God is One" James 2

 

[Tinkerpeach]

That was not a direct answer by any stretch .. quite missing the mark .. to the question of following the teachings of Jesus on the subject of Salvation ... a claim in this direction normally requiring some vestage of scriptural support .. as opposed to repetition of denominational dogma .. the meaning of which the adherent has normally thought little about.

For Example -- Jesus gives a Sermon on this subject "how to get through pearly gates" .. 101 - perhaps you have heard of the Sermon on the Mount.... Matt 5-7 .. which opens

Blessed are the Poor in Spirit - for Theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven

nowhere do we find that one must accept that Jesus was a human sacrifice .. the Scapegoat .. in order to get through the gates .. and in fact nowhere does Jesus put the emphasis on belief in him .. and in fact .. quite the reverse .. such that it is not you who is following the Teachings of Jesus .. but in fact doing the Reverse ? .. following man made dogma .. as opossed to heeding the words of Jesus in relation to this subject.


Did you think Lord Sataniel -- a Divinity with God-Like Powers -- the great deceiver and Tester of mankind ... was going to show up with Horns -Red Cape and a Tail ?

Matt 7: 15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

On the basis of works .. the bad ones recognized .. not going to find any Salvation by Faith formulation in this Sermon.. quite the contrary .. Those with Faith but no works do not make it .. repeated in James 2 .. called the doctrine of Fools "Salvation by Faith Alone" Sola Fide

Not all who call out "Lord Lord" .. make it .. Says the Teacher .. but "Only those that do the will of my Father who is in Heaven"

Do you understand ? --- This is not about what Fundamentalist Paster Phil .. or Catholic Priest Joe .. or about what Idol Martin Luther has to say .. but What Jesus has to say - in this Sermon .. the subject of which is how to achieve Salvation. and in this sermon .. there is no requirement to believe in Jesus personally .. have faith in his act of self sacrifice .. .. what you are to believe in are the Teachings of Jesus .. that this is the true Path .. the way .. the light. which tell us how to be put right with God

Only those that do the Will of the Father .. which according to Jesus is what ? .. From This Sermon the last paragraph

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

One must put the words into practice .. faith alone will do you no good .. "Even Demons believe God is One" James 2

This is easy to debunk with one verse.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well.

 

[YoursTrue]

I would also ask, what does it mean to be "saved"?

 

[Sargonski]

This is easy to debunk with one verse.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well.

What have you debunked other than the claim that you understood the question and the subject matter - claims of adherence to logic and reason ?

You were asked how one gets into heaven according to the teachings of Jesus in his Sermon on the Mount .. and quoted some of these teachings from this Famous Sermon Matt 5-7.

Now you are claiming to have debunked the teachings of Jesus .. with a verse where Jesus states "I am the way and the Truth and the Life" no one comes to Father except through me" - What is it you think you have debunked here .... and on what basis ?

and why are you going outside of this Sermon ? .. did you not understand that we are looking at the Teachings of Jesus --- In this Sermon .. the people listening to Jesus did not have the Gospel of John to refer to. They had the Teachings from the Sermon on the Mount .. which goes into great detail as to how to get into heaven .. none of which this passage contradicts .. even if it was in the Sermon on the Mount .. but its not and so it has no possibiity of debunking anything .

Why are you deflecting from the Teachings of Jesus in his most famous Sermon . .. while claiming to be a follower of Jesus .. thinking that quoting some random passage with no explanation about what this passage relates to and crying "Debunked .. you are Debunked" constitutes and argument for something

Sorry .. you have not debunked any of the cited teachings of Jesus. What you have done is affirm them .. by showing that Jesus will Judge who gets in and who does not at the end of days .. and that through the Teachings of Jesus one can be put right with the Father. You are thus claiming to have debunked .. what in fact you have affirmed.

Quite the mind bending contradiction and logical confusion .. some kind of misdirection and deflection .. certainly not The Way, The Truth the Life nor the light.

Through the teachings of Jesus is how one comes to the Father --sayeth the passage you quote .. why then are you trying to disparaging these teachings ? I don't get it ..

 

[Sargonski]

I would also ask, what does it mean to be "saved"?

Sometimes one should not ask questions ... to which they will not like the answer and you are going to get all kinds of answers and gobbldy gook.. many of which will lack understanding of the question .. explaining how they think one is saved .. rather than what it means to be saved ... what the purpose of being saved is .. such that one might want to do such a thing.

Saved from eternal torture in the afterlife .. is the Christian version of what it means to be saved ... Is the same in Islam ..and a number of other religious traditions.

 

[Brickjectivity]

Christians, in your opinion, am I going to heaven when I die aka "saved"?

Dont give me that "only god knows" answer. I'm not interested in that.

Let me make my case for why I'm going to heaven if Jesus Christ is literally God and stuff.

I was a Christian from the time I understood it. This lasted until the time I was around 22-23. I prayed the salvation prayer so many times in middle school, for fear I didn't do it right the first time. The stakes were the highest ya know? Get it wrong or something and you will be in literal hell forever. But I really believed in Jesus Christ as a deity. It's not like I never believed in Him in the first place. I worshiped Him earnestly.

I have taken in new knowledge and life experiences. My beliefs have matured. I'm not calling Christianity immature, I'm saying my personal understanding's maturity led me away from Christ. Do you tell a person they never believed in Santa because they no longer do? No!

Is salvation eternal?

Oh I wished so hard that God would come down on a cloud and talk to me, but he never did. I'm a sad, sad mistreated ex-Christian. Ouch my legs are getting longer during my growth spurt and it hurts sometimes. Obviously God cannot exist, because I felt a pain once. I have a boo boo.

in your opinion

That's my opinion. To me you seem very lucky. Whenceforth cometh so many threads about your graduation out of Christianity? It seems like at least ten threads. Did they whip you at your church?

 

[Kenny]

God does not care about your rejection or lack of belief .. this has no bearing on Salvation .. That much is clear.

I'm sorry, I'm not clear on this statement. What makes it "clear"?

 

[Kenny]

That was not a direct answer by any stretch .. quite missing the mark .. to the question of following the teachings of Jesus on the subject of Salvation ... a claim in this direction normally requiring some vestage of scriptural support .. as opposed to repetition of denominational dogma .. the meaning of which the adherent has normally thought little about.

For Example -- Jesus gives a Sermon on this subject "how to get through pearly gates" .. 101 - perhaps you have heard of the Sermon on the Mount.... Matt 5-7 .. which opens

Blessed are the Poor in Spirit - for Theirs is the Kingdom of Heaven

nowhere do we find that one must accept that Jesus was a human sacrifice .. the Scapegoat .. in order to get through the gates .. and in fact nowhere does Jesus put the emphasis on belief in him .. and in fact .. quite the reverse .. such that it is not you who is following the Teachings of Jesus .. but in fact doing the Reverse ? .. following man made dogma .. as opossed to heeding the words of Jesus in relation to this subject.


Did you think Lord Sataniel -- a Divinity with God-Like Powers -- the great deceiver and Tester of mankind ... was going to show up with Horns -Red Cape and a Tail ?

Matt 7: 15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

On the basis of works .. the bad ones recognized .. not going to find any Salvation by Faith formulation in this Sermon.. quite the contrary .. Those with Faith but no works do not make it .. repeated in James 2 .. called the doctrine of Fools "Salvation by Faith Alone" Sola Fide

Not all who call out "Lord Lord" .. make it .. Says the Teacher .. but "Only those that do the will of my Father who is in Heaven"

Do you understand ? --- This is not about what Fundamentalist Paster Phil .. or Catholic Priest Joe .. or about what Idol Martin Luther has to say .. but What Jesus has to say - in this Sermon .. the subject of which is how to achieve Salvation. and in this sermon .. there is no requirement to believe in Jesus personally .. have faith in his act of self sacrifice .. .. what you are to believe in are the Teachings of Jesus .. that this is the true Path .. the way .. the light. which tell us how to be put right with God

Only those that do the Will of the Father .. which according to Jesus is what ? .. From This Sermon the last paragraph

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

One must put the words into practice .. faith alone will do you no good .. "Even Demons believe God is One" James 2

This is also confusing...

Are you saying it is with works you are saved? Or are you saying that after you are saved you should have the works of faith.

 

[Father Heathen]

If there is a god, they would be a being of pure love and pure logic, therefore anything devoid of compassion and reason cannot be of god.
Justice is when the punishment is proportionate to the offense, and no human is capable of committing anything that is proportionate to eternal damnation. What purpose would it fulfill? To gratify god's ego?

 

[meshak2]

Are you saying it is with works you are saved?

Jesus says He is the way.

It is necessary to believe everything that He commands or teaches needs to be followed.

So it is a lie to claim all you have to do is believe in Jesus.

Jesus says "If you love Me, keep my commandments" which is all work.

James says faith without works is dead. This harmonizes with Jesus' word.

 

[meshak2]

Remember Jesus said: "the Kingdom of God is within you."

This is a profound word of Jesus.

Christians are supposed to be Jesus' followers.

We cannot tell anyone who is saved or not because we made a commitment to Jesus to follow Him.

Our Lord is Jesus.

 

[Sargonski]

This is also confusing...

Are you saying it is with works you are saved? Or are you saying that after you are saved you should have the works of faith.

I have no idea what the "Works of Faith" are .. so definitely not saying that.

"Are you saying it is with Works that one is Saved?" - folks seem unable to explain what they mean by this word/concept -- so I have no idea what you are asking ... unless you read carefully (and it is apparent you did not) and by "Saved" mean have managed to avoid eternal torture in the Afterlife.

this is not about me saying by works "One gets into heaven" but what Jesus says- Teaches , in this particular Sermon from which the adherent invariably will try to deflect and deviate .. to bring in other parts of the Bible .. in a desperate attempt to avoid these teachings.

Not all those who cry out "Lord Lord" make it into heaven. This has nothing to do with anything I say ... but what Jesus says -

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Do you understand What Jesus is saying ? Good ..finally I found someone who can tell me what to do to be "Saved" Who then are these folks .. all who will claim to be "Saved" who don't make it .. and why don't they make it .. as obviously this is something we want to avoid.

And Second but related .. What is the Will of the Father ? = Summarize the Sermon on the Mount Matt 5-7 .. where Jesus describes the Will of the Father relating to how one gets into heaven

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock...... 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand.

Maybe Jesus can help you to answer your homework question above .. and your question on Works .. of course you will have read the entire passage at least from 7:12 .. and thus able to tell us what God's will is .. Hint 7:12

So What I am saying .. is that this is what Jesus says gets us a good shot at making it through Judgement .. if you wish to call these things - such as the Golden Rule "Works" this is Fine by me.

 

[meshak2]

I have no idea what the "Works of Faith" are .. so definitely not saying that.

Do you want to be saved in a Christian or Jesus way?

Are you serious about it?

 

[meshak2]

Sometimes one should not ask questions ... to which they will not like the answer and you are going to get all kinds of answers and gobbldy gook.. many of which will lack understanding of the question .. explaining how they think one is saved .. rather than what it means to be saved ... what the purpose of being saved is .. such that one might want to do such a thing.

Saved from eternal torture in the afterlife .. is the Christian version of what it means to be saved ... Is the same in Islam ..and a number of other religious traditions.

Following Jesus is not as easy as most Christians are making it out to be.

We have to abandon our way of living and mentality to His ways.

Are you willing to do that?

 

[Sargonski]

I'm sorry, I'm not clear on this statement. What makes it "clear"?

Ahh .. this is good question ... "Why belief in "Jesus" as the savior " as oppose to belief in the Teachings of Jesus has no bearing on salvation. This question is answered in last post to you .. the last paragraph of the Sermon on the Mount .. and previous .. so its clear from what Jesus says here .. and in other related places such as when the Rich man asks what he must do to get into heaven .. Jesus responds "Why do you call me Good .. there is no one Good but The Father" (and that ain't me ding ding ding .. but that is another subject and conversation)

So that is the perspective of Salvation from the Jesus end .. and on that end it is clear .. so vicariously .. it is Clear on the Father's end as well .. as Jesus is "The Logos" after all .. his word "IS" the word of the Father .. one in the same ..

When you arrive back in heaven.. your Earthly vacation complete - your memory restored .. you will again remember one of the few rules in heaven .. the first one being "No Praising the Most High" . After the first Trillion years of every entity God encountered doing nothing but Singing Praise and blowing smoke up the divine backside 24/7 365 days a year .. the noise got really painful .. and the edict was made.. So if you run into the HIgh Dude .. who will be most likely wearing Sandals and smoking his Favorite Pipe full of Heavenly Hash .. just be cool .. relax .. all good in the hood .. this is heaven remember .. no bad gonna come for ya.. Sataniel is the Concierge .. tell you whats happening .. there are millions of channels .. from millions of worlds ... so after some time .. you can plan your next vacation .. which brings us to another rule.. the Vacation rule .. So when you go to the Travel agency .. they gonna give you the blue pill .. gonna go to sleep .. and when wake up will be on vacation .. your soul will have entered into the fleshy abode awaiting you .. you will open your eyes .. and have the "I AM" experience .. realizing that you exist .. but you won't remember your past lives .. not directly at least .. perhaps a glimpse here and there.

and one more thing ... Your anthropomorphic attribution to God .. the picture you have .. is not one of an self centered A$$hole with the most petty and nasty of Human Characteristics... Is that not clear ? Crystal Clear I mean .. !?

 

[Sargonski]

Do you want to be saved in a Christian or Jesus way?

Are you serious about it?

No idea what you mean .. so impossible to answer your question ? Of course I am serious about being saved from eternal torture in the after-life. ... and don't care what way ... "Christian" or "Jesus" so long as it works .. is the right way.

Can you help in this endeavor .. do you know which is the right way ?

 

[Sargonski]

Following Jesus is not as easy as most Christians are making it out to be.

We have to abandon our way of living and mentality to His ways.

Are you willing to do that?

Yes .. .. What must we abandon .. and what are the ways of Jesus that we must adopt. .. and I agree completely that Sola Fide doctrine is heretical .. not as easy as the "Free Pass" theology would suggest.

 

[Kenny]

Jesus says He is the way.

It is necessary to believe everything that He commands or teaches needs to be followed.

So it is a lie to claim all you have to do is believe in Jesus.

Jesus says "If you love Me, keep my commandments" which is all work.

James says faith without works is dead. This harmonizes with Jesus' word.

No... the commandments that Jesus gave were two... Love God and love your neighbor.

If one want to go to the law and do everything that he commands, then we are transgressors and we fail because no person born of a man and a woman has accomplished that.

James is talking about outward works of your inward faith, not about union with God.