Christians, change my mind: the more I think of substitutionary atonement, the less it makes sense.

[exchemist]

Its definitely not a Protestant thing... For the longest time I thought Jesus was the Immaculate Conception.

Yes it is a popular misconception (geddit? ) that it refers to the conception of Jesus by Mary via the Holy Spirit, i.e. it is confused with the Virgin Birth.

 

[1213]

...
Ok but it doesn't answer the question of how three days equals to eternity.
...
Well why did God change from the old way of atonement to something new if the old way was OK? Also I don't think it's a perfect sacrifice since He was only dead for three days and not an eternity
...

1. I think there is no Biblical reason to think 3 days should or would equal to eternity.

2. Jesus is the perfect “sacrifice”, because by that he lived for us, by teaching people how to become righteous, he could actually make a change for better. Killing doesn’t make anyone better, which is why those animal sacrifices didn’t please God. In Old way God also forgave freely.

 

[Ancient Soul]

Can Jesus really save anyone? The more I think of the Christian idea of substitutionary atonement the less I'm convinced that Jesus can actually save anyone.

1) if Jesus paid the absolute debt for my sins then why must I ask for forgiveness? If my sins truly have been paid for then I shouldn't need to ask for forgiveness.

2) How does spending three days in Hell or dead, whichever interpretation you hold to, pay for an eternal punishment of death, separation from God or torture? If Jesus were to pay for my sins and take my place, then He should be dead forever, be separated from God forever or be in hell right now being tortured forever but supposedly He's not, so again, how exactly was my eternal punishment paid for?

3) How is it just for an innocent person to pay for the sins of a guilty person? Justice demands that the guilty pay for their own crimes... if an innocent person does so then it's not justice since the person guilty of the crime is not facing the requisite punishment for their actions.

4) If you're a trinitarian, how is it that God through Christ can be separated from Himself or die yet be alive at the same time or face eternal torture yet not face eternal torture at the same time?

5) If substitutionary atonement is the only just way for sins for sins to be paid then why does God punish people for their own sins and how can it be just for a person to pay for their own sins after they're judged by God when only an innocent person can pay for the sins of the guilty and the guilty can't pay for their own sins?

6) If the Fall actually happened then haven't we all already faced our just punishment by being condemned to live on this fallen planet with all the suffering and evil that it has? Why the double jeopardy of hell or everlasting death or separation from God in the afterlife if God already perfectly punished us for our sins in the Garden of Eden?

7) How can Jesus have been fully human and fully God, if being human entailed being a fallen being, with a sinful nature, who's guilty of sins and deserves eternal punishment when Jesus was supposedly a perfect being who was the complete opposite of that? How was Jesus even human at all?

Some of the questions may sound the same but they are not if you read them carefully... will be interested to hear responses, thank you.

Welcome to the quagmire of the Christian mythology!

 

[Muffled]

Can Jesus really save anyone? The more I think of the Christian idea of substitutionary atonement the less I'm convinced that Jesus can actually save anyone.

1) if Jesus paid the absolute debt for my sins then why must I ask for forgiveness? If my sins truly have been paid for then I shouldn't need to ask for forgiveness.

2) How does spending three days in Hell or dead, whichever interpretation you hold to, pay for an eternal punishment of death, separation from God or torture? If Jesus were to pay for my sins and take my place, then He should be dead forever, be separated from God forever or be in hell right now being tortured forever but supposedly He's not, so again, how exactly was my eternal punishment paid for?

3) How is it just for an innocent person to pay for the sins of a guilty person? Justice demands that the guilty pay for their own crimes... if an innocent person does so then it's not justice since the person guilty of the crime is not facing the requisite punishment for their actions.

4) If you're a trinitarian, how is it that God through Christ can be separated from Himself or die yet be alive at the same time or face eternal torture yet not face eternal torture at the same time?

5) If substitutionary atonement is the only just way for sins for sins to be paid then why does God punish people for their own sins and how can it be just for a person to pay for their own sins after they're judged by God when only an innocent person can pay for the sins of the guilty and the guilty can't pay for their own sins?

6) If the Fall actually happened then haven't we all already faced our just punishment by being condemned to live on this fallen planet with all the suffering and evil that it has? Why the double jeopardy of hell or everlasting death or separation from God in the afterlife if God already perfectly punished us for our sins in the Garden of Eden?

7) How can Jesus have been fully human and fully God, if being human entailed being a fallen being, with a sinful nature, who's guilty of sins and deserves eternal punishment when Jesus was supposedly a perfect being who was the complete opposite of that? How was Jesus even human at all?

Some of the questions may sound the same but they are not if you read them carefully... will be interested to hear responses, thank you.

1. I believe your sins are only paid for if you admit you have sinned. Asking for forgiveness aknowledges that fact. My question ofr you is: Do you have a sin you don't want to have been paid for?

2. I believe days in the grave has nothing to do with atonement.

3. I believe it is not justice but is mercy. If it were justice we would all be dead by now.

4. I believe God is never separated from Himself. I don't know what you mean by die and be alive at the same time unless you are referring to time travel. I believe God never faces eternal torture.

5. I believe a punishment for sins means a substitution didn't take place. I believe the second question is too confusing to answer.

6. I do not believe in Adam and Eve as the original sinners. Living with evil is the price for living in this age. Living without evil is the reward for those who want it and the punishment for those who don't want it in the next age. I believe Hell is the only way to eliminate evil from the world.

7. Technically He is not fully human and fully God but there is enough of each so it does not matter. Jesus is human in flesh but not in spirit. It is the spirit that is evil. The flesh profits nothing.

 

[Muffled]

It never did make sense, except from an ancient perspective of the belief in sacrifice.

God always does things that make sense. It is people who lack reason.

 

[Muffled]

YES! I believe you are correct.

Jesus was not a substitute for anyone. He was a representative of everyone.

I believe however that not just anyone can be crucified. The only way I can be crucified is by way of Jesus doing it for me. I suppose you could say He represents me in the crucifixion.

That reminds me of being a jail minister and wishing I could minister on the inside instead of just visiting. The problem is that one must disobey a law and not disobey a law of God. That isn't as easy as it sounds.

 

[Ancient Soul]

1. I believe your sins are only paid for if you admit you have sinned. Asking for forgiveness aknowledges that fact. My question ofr you is: Do you have a sin you don't want to have been paid for?

2. I believe days in the grave has nothing to do with atonement.

3. I believe it is not justice but is mercy. If it were justice we would all be dead by now.

4. I believe God is never separated from Himself. I don't know what you mean by die and be alive at the same time unless you are referring to time travel. I believe God never faces eternal torture.

5. I believe a punishment for sins means a substitution didn't take place. I believe the second question is too confusing to answer.

6. I do not believe in Adam and Eve as the original sinners. Living with evil is the price for living in this age. Living without evil is the reward for those who want it and the punishment for those who don't want it in the next age. I believe Hell is the only way to eliminate evil from the world.

7. Technically He is not fully human and fully God but there is enough of each so it does not matter. Jesus is human in flesh but not in spirit. It is the spirit that is evil. The flesh profits nothing.

If you: "do not believe in Adam and Eve as the original sinners", then you cannot believe in the Christian myth of "redemption". As THAT is the very foundation of their brainwashing system, to convince everyone that they are born "evil" no matter how good they really are, and so MUST blindly believe in the Christian myth or be tortured thru-out all eternity.

So I have to ask, are you a heretic Christian?

 

[shunyadragon]

God always does things that make sense. It is people who lack reason.

People with reason without blind faith in ancient agendas are willing to make more sense to have reason and faith for the universal evolving purpose of our existence for God's Crqation form a universal perspective. .

 

[shunyadragon]

I believe however that not just anyone can be crucified.

Many thousands did for treason and worse against Rome..

 

[sudakar]

Can Jesus really save anyone? The more I think of the Christian idea of substitutionary atonement the less I'm convinced that Jesus can actually save anyone.

1) if Jesus paid the absolute debt for my sins then why must I ask for forgiveness? If my sins truly have been paid for then I shouldn't need to ask for forgiveness.

2) How does spending three days in Hell or dead, whichever interpretation you hold to, pay for an eternal punishment of death, separation from God or torture? If Jesus were to pay for my sins and take my place, then He should be dead forever, be separated from God forever or be in hell right now being tortured forever but supposedly He's not, so again, how exactly was my eternal punishment paid for?

3) How is it just for an innocent person to pay for the sins of a guilty person? Justice demands that the guilty pay for their own crimes... if an innocent person does so then it's not justice since the person guilty of the crime is not facing the requisite punishment for their actions.

4) If you're a trinitarian, how is it that God through Christ can be separated from Himself or die yet be alive at the same time or face eternal torture yet not face eternal torture at the same time?

5) If substitutionary atonement is the only just way for sins for sins to be paid then why does God punish people for their own sins and how can it be just for a person to pay for their own sins after they're judged by God when only an innocent person can pay for the sins of the guilty and the guilty can't pay for their own sins?

6) If the Fall actually happened then haven't we all already faced our just punishment by being condemned to live on this fallen planet with all the suffering and evil that it has? Why the double jeopardy of hell or everlasting death or separation from God in the afterlife if God already perfectly punished us for our sins in the Garden of Eden?

7) How can Jesus have been fully human and fully God, if being human entailed being a fallen being, with a sinful nature, who's guilty of sins and deserves eternal punishment when Jesus was supposedly a perfect being who was the complete opposite of that? How was Jesus even human at all?

Some of the questions may sound the same but they are not if you read them carefully... will be interested to hear responses, thank you.

Do you believe christus victor?

 

[sudakar]

It's valuable to know that this particular theory (human guessing) is only one of 3 main theories (the most widespread) to try to explain the mystery of the cross.

Only one theory, of several. The wiki suggests or points to or links the others, such as Christus Victor for example, so you can click through links and read various theories:
Substitutionary atonement - Wikipedia
(also, just in case it's not in there, I suggest also Abelard's theory; ah here it is, if a bit more abstractly than I like perhaps:
Moral influence theory of atonement - Wikipedia
that by contemplating what He did, we are profoundly changed; the reality of what Christ did for us from Love can truly destroy our....evil hardness of heart, and hatred towards God and man which we tend to harbor as grudges and unforgiveness, for example.)

What theory of atonement you believe?

 

[halbhh]

What theory of atonement you believe?

To answer that, I sincerely believe that along with things we can understand, this also has more to it than we can entirely understand, even this way --

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isaiah 55 NIV

So, we cannot, literally cannot, fully understand the mind of God, but only know the partial things He has chosen to reveal to us.

Therefore, I think the atonement in the cross has more to it than anyone of us can say, or that perhaps if someone could say more, that we could not necessarily understand it all individually. Instead we can only have partial understanding at most. As I see it, many of the main theories of atonement have some truths in them. For example, Christus Victor has the truths we can also learn in the first passage (verses 1-14) of Romans 6 NIV

But, these truths are not the entirety.

So, also for my own sense of the Influence theory of Atonement, which I've not found fully stated somewhere (though perhaps it is). To me, it means that if we can realize the reality of Christ on the cross this...destroys our hatred for one another and for God.

So, I think there is more than one thing, and also additionally there is 'mystery' in the sense of being above our understanding, both.

 

[halbhh]

Can Jesus really save anyone? The more I think of the Christian idea of substitutionary atonement the less I'm convinced that Jesus can actually save anyone.

1) if Jesus paid the absolute debt for my sins then why must I ask for forgiveness? If my sins truly have been paid for then I shouldn't need to ask for forgiveness.

2) How does spending three days in Hell or dead, whichever interpretation you hold to, pay for an eternal punishment of death, separation from God or torture? If Jesus were to pay for my sins and take my place, then He should be dead forever, be separated from God forever or be in hell right now being tortured forever but supposedly He's not, so again, how exactly was my eternal punishment paid for?

3) How is it just for an innocent person to pay for the sins of a guilty person? Justice demands that the guilty pay for their own crimes... if an innocent person does so then it's not justice since the person guilty of the crime is not facing the requisite punishment for their actions.

4) If you're a trinitarian, how is it that God through Christ can be separated from Himself or die yet be alive at the same time or face eternal torture yet not face eternal torture at the same time?

5) If substitutionary atonement is the only just way for sins for sins to be paid then why does God punish people for their own sins and how can it be just for a person to pay for their own sins after they're judged by God when only an innocent person can pay for the sins of the guilty and the guilty can't pay for their own sins?

6) If the Fall actually happened then haven't we all already faced our just punishment by being condemned to live on this fallen planet with all the suffering and evil that it has? Why the double jeopardy of hell or everlasting death or separation from God in the afterlife if God already perfectly punished us for our sins in the Garden of Eden?

7) How can Jesus have been fully human and fully God, if being human entailed being a fallen being, with a sinful nature, who's guilty of sins and deserves eternal punishment when Jesus was supposedly a perfect being who was the complete opposite of that? How was Jesus even human at all?

Some of the questions may sound the same but they are not if you read them carefully... will be interested to hear responses, thank you.

Please see the answer just above in post 132, since it has quite a bit more than I wrote originally, that may help on some key things.

 

[Ebionite]

Can Jesus really save anyone? The more I think of the Christian idea of substitutionary atonement the less I'm convinced that Jesus can actually save anyone.

You're thinking of the Christian Jesus when Jesus was never a Christian.

But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Matthew 12:7

 

[Ebionite]

Ok but it doesn't answer the question of how three days equals to eternity.

The three days and nights was from the sign of Jonah, and isn't the same as the roughly 36 hours from around dusk before the sabbath to around dawn on the first day of the week. The three accounts of the sign of Jonah are all different:

Luke 11
29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.
31 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with the men of this generation, and condemn them: for she came from the utmost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
32 The men of Nineve shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Matthew 12
38 Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.
42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Matthew 16
1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I understand that when Jesus was born of Mary he was of the same flesh and blood as his mother, his brothers and everyone else who knew him.
He was also of the same flesh and blood as Adam when Adam became a living soul.
God commanded Adam not to eat of the tree, Adam failed. Because Adam failed we all die, It is the flesh and blood nature that must die. In other words, if Adam had resisted the temptation to eat of the tree which brought his death God might have allowed Adam to eat of the other tree which would have given him eternal life.
Where Adam failed, Jesus succeeded. Jesus resisted all the temptations of the flesh and laid down his life as God had commanded him to do.
So, God has accepted the sacrifice of His son and whosoever believes and is baptized into him can escape the condemnation of Adam's sin.

That's not dissimilar to my interpretation. Jesus shows the way to "at-ONE-ment," that is, the understanding of the individual that all is One. Christ hanging on the Cross--The Tree of Life and Death--is a symbol of the microcosm and macrocosm joined.

Adam and Eve eating from the Tree of Good and Evil separated the self from the Garden, and they covered themselves in shame.

Of course, the Truth has always been that we humans are by no means separate from our environment except in our ego. We are the Son (Self) suffering until we come to the Father (the Universe as a whole) as the Ego sacrificed to the acceptance of what we are.

 

[sudakar]

To answer that, I sincerely believe that along with things we can understand, this also has more to it than we can entirely understand, even this way --

“For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the Lord.
9“As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isaiah 55 NIV

So, we cannot, literally cannot, fully understand the mind of God, but only know the partial things He has chosen to reveal to us.

Therefore, I think the atonement in the cross has more to it than anyone of us can say, or that perhaps if someone could say more, that we could not necessarily understand it all individually. Instead we can only have partial understanding at most. As I see it, many of the main theories of atonement have some truths in them. For example, Christus Victor has the truths we can also learn in the first passage (verses 1-14) of Romans 6 NIV

But, these truths are not the entirety.

So, also for my own sense of the Influence theory of Atonement, which I've not found fully stated somewhere (though perhaps it is). To me, it means that if we can realize the reality of Christ on the cross this...destroys our hatred for one another and for God.

So, I think there is more than one thing, and also additionally there is 'mystery' in the sense of being above our understanding, both.

So you don't believe Jesus took God's wrath which was upon us, upon Himself on the cross?

 

[halbhh]

So you don't believe Jesus took God's wrath which was upon us, upon Himself on the cross?

That too. But if someone insisted that was all there was, it would not be correct to remove the truths of Romans chapter 6 for example. So, it has depths.