Christians claims re the gay agenda

[Riverwolf]

i cant change what my conscience tells me. Human Rights laws uphold matters of conscience and its when people are forced to change their conscience that human rights are really violated.

Homosexuality is included in those human rights laws.

You see, my conscience tells me that homosexuality is perfectly normal and should be regarded as such by the law.

 

[LuisDantas]

i cant change what my conscience tells me.

You realize that amounts to saying that you can't ever learn to love homosexuals as people with equal rights?

Human Rights laws uphold matters of conscience and its when people are forced to change their conscience that human rights are really violated.

I can't say I see any sense on this, sorry.

 

[HonestJoe]

we can believe it, but we cant express it without being vilified and branded as homophobic when its not homophobia at all.

So people can believe your opinion is homophobic but they shouldn't be allowed to express it?

I think you're both wrong - am I allowed to say anything at all?

i personally dont care what people choose to do...i just dont want to be told that I have to agree with it.

I don't particularly want to be told that if I don't reject my "sins" and accept Jesus in to my life I'm condemned to an eternity in Hell. I can be though and there is nothing I can do about it.

 

[Pegg]

Homosexuality is included in those human rights laws.

You see, my conscience tells me that homosexuality is perfectly normal and should be regarded as such by the law.

and thats fine

each to his own as they say

 

[Pegg]

You realize that amounts to saying that you can't ever learn to love homosexuals as people with equal rights?

of course I can. I dont deny them their rights, their freedom to practice or freedom to conscience.

I dont treat them any differently to anyone else. I cant control what the governments do so i dont think i should be held responsible for their decisions.

 

[Pegg]

So people can believe your opinion is homophobic but they shouldn't be allowed to express it?

I think you're both wrong - am I allowed to say anything at all?

I don't particularly want to be told that if I don't reject my "sins" and accept Jesus in to my life I'm condemned to an eternity in Hell. I can be though and there is nothing I can do about it.

to claim someone is 'homophobic' because they dont agree is a bullying tactic. Its like kids in the playground who accuse another of something they didnt do so that others will look down on them.

I have no fear of homosexuals so how can i be homophobic? You can tell me my view is wrong, but to say im homophobic is fairly unintelligent imo.

I can handle the fact that you disagree with my view, 100%...and I can accept that without resorting to personal attacks too.

 

[InformedIgnorance]

Homophobic is an over used term tbh; more often it seems that we should be using homonegativist or some version of the term beginning with 'miso' (though the phrasing then becomes awkward such as misohomosexualist not a word btw) rather than fear it seems to be about disgust or hatred at some level not necessarily of the people but rather of either the people, the inclination or the act; we should not be so quick as to assume it is a phobia... though I do understand that is far more pleasant and less judgmental to use that term than to name it for what it often is - simple bigotry which is far worse than a phobia and we should avoid using the term as a result.

For the record I recognize that I am slightly homophobic (though believe I mitigate any manifestations of this quite well), that said, the idea of the 'gay agenda' ('rainbow mafia' and all that jazz) is a nonsensical concept. Instead the most that could reliably be said, would be that many people in the LBGT community might be inclined to encourage a tolerant mindset. I.e. people have their differences, provided everyone directly involved has given informed consent, there is no problem and you should mind your own business. Many within the LBGT community might also hope to encourage not merely tolerance but acceptance... given the extreme lack of tolerance in many portions of society however, they are probably better off facing one hurdle at a time, attempting to foster tolerance at a personal level and at the level of institutions both public and private; some people and some institutions are less tolerant than others - a sad but inescapable fact.

 

[HonestJoe]

to claim someone is 'homophobic' because they dont agree is a bullying tactic. Its like kids in the playground who accuse another of something they didnt do so that others will look down on them.

I didn’t say it was a good thing but I also consider some of they things you say regarding homosexuality are no better (stating it is a choice that is fundamentally wrong for example. I was only highlighting the apparent contradiction in your position that you should be free to say whatever you believe but they shouldn't.

Think of it this way if it helps. How bad you feel when people wrongly call you homophobic is exactly how bad you make homosexuals feel when you express your position.

 

[averageJOE]

"Gay Agenda"...I hate that dumb term. It's akin to "baby momma". A person just sounds unintelligent when they say it.

 

[LuisDantas]

of course I can. I dont deny them their rights, their freedom to practice or freedom to conscience.

Then what are you complaining about?

 

[Pegg]

I didn’t say it was a good thing but I also consider some of they things you say regarding homosexuality are no better (stating it is a choice that is fundamentally wrong for example. I was only highlighting the apparent contradiction in your position that you should be free to say whatever you believe but they shouldn't.

Think of it this way if it helps. How bad you feel when people wrongly call you homophobic is exactly how bad you make homosexuals feel when you express your position.

well thats the problem. They get upset because they dont have someones approval.

People dont like my practices either, but I dont bite their heads off because of it.

I think people need to stop getting so offended at the views of others. I can understand the anger of the homosexual community towards the laws of the land which discriminate, ie marriage for example..... but dont take your anger out on everyone because everyone is not against you personally. And even if we dont agree with your practices, we are still not against you personally.

 

[Pegg]

Homophobic is an over used term tbh; more often it seems that we should be using homonegativist or some version of the term beginning with 'miso' (though the phrasing then becomes awkward such as misohomosexualist not a word btw) rather than fear it seems to be about disgust or hatred at some level not necessarily of the people but rather of either the people, the inclination or the act; we should not be so quick as to assume it is a phobia... though I do understand that is far more pleasant and less judgmental to use that term than to name it for what it often is - simple bigotry which is far worse than a phobia and we should avoid using the term as a result.

For the record I recognize that I am slightly homophobic (though believe I mitigate any manifestations of this quite well), that said, the idea of the 'gay agenda' ('rainbow mafia' and all that jazz) is a nonsensical concept. Instead the most that could reliably be said, would be that many people in the LBGT community might be inclined to encourage a tolerant mindset. I.e. people have their differences, provided everyone directly involved has given informed consent, there is no problem and you should mind your own business. Many within the LBGT community might also hope to encourage not merely tolerance but acceptance... given the extreme lack of tolerance in many portions of society however, they are probably better off facing one hurdle at a time, attempting to foster tolerance at a personal level and at the level of institutions both public and private; some people and some institutions are less tolerant than others - a sad but inescapable fact.

encourage a tolerant mindset so that the rights and freedoms of homosexual people are not interfered with, yes. Absolutely.

But try to change the opinions of people to make them think that homosexuality is perfectly normal and acceptable? No. That is just as bad as mistreating someone because they are homosexual.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

encourage a tolerant mindset so that the rights and freedoms of homosexual people are not interfered with, yes. Absolutely.

But try to change the opinions of people to make them think that homosexuality is perfectly normal and acceptable? No. That is just as bad as mistreating someone because they are homosexual.

No it's as bad as mistreating someone for being homosexual.
It's slowly starting to happen and I personally can not wait when homosexuality is taught as normal in highschools.
Saying something is homophobic is not a bullying tactic it's being honest. The homophobes are slowly loosing there will be more and more gay people being represented on TV and whether they like it or not their children are going to be taught through television or their school that homosexuality is normal. Give it another decade or two and Soon the homophobes in my country will have to throw anyway their TV and home school their children. I really can't wait.

 

[Revoltingest]

to claim someone is 'homophobic' because they dont agree is a bullying tactic. Its like kids in the playground who accuse another of something they didnt do so that others will look down on them.
I have no fear of homosexuals so how can i be homophobic? You can tell me my view is wrong, but to say im homophobic is fairly unintelligent imo.
I can handle the fact that you disagree with my view, 100%...and I can accept that without resorting to personal attacks too.

I agree with you on this. While I think homosexuality is OK, it would be wrong to tag you with this epithet just cuz we disagree.
The dishonesty of "homopobic" is that it connotes a psychiatric disorder, ie, the irrational fear of homos. Those wielding the
term do so without basis in this diagnosis of you. Moreover, it even smacks of making mental illness morally wrong.
So to those who disagree with you, I advise skipping the name calling. Deal with the disagreement instead of the diagnosis.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

well thats the problem. They get upset because they dont have someones approval.

People dont like my practices either, but I dont bite their heads off because of it.

I think people need to stop getting so offended at the views of others. I can understand the anger of the homosexual community towards the laws of the land which discriminate, ie marriage for example..... but dont take your anger out on everyone because everyone is not against you personally. And even if we dont agree with your practices, we are still not against you personally.

What practises don't people like you doing? Homosexuality is a sexual orientation, you can't stop someone from being gay, you can tell them not to have sex but let's be honest Pegg any homosexuals in the WT org probably want to kill themselves, news flash they do want to kill themselves and you would know this if you were allowed to listen to the people that have left.

 

[HonestJoe]

well thats the problem. They get upset because they dont have someones approval.

How would they know they don't have your approval? Isn't it actually the case that they're getting upset because you're expressing your disapproval to (at!) them, which could be considered a demonstration of you getting upset because you don't approve of what they do/who they are?

Sure, some people overreact in such situations but that's not a uniquely homosexual thing and certainly isn't unknown among those who oppose homosexuality too. What you're objecting to is an aspect of human nature. Attributing it exclusively or prominently to homosexuals is simply wrong.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

I agree with you on this. While I think homosexuality is OK, it would be wrong to tag you with this epithet just cuz you disagree.

Yeah because someone isn't racist when they don't want a child from a different race playing with their kids, they just have a different opinion.
The fact is "I don't agree with homosexuality" opinions contribute to a society that is already homophobic, a society that denies them marriage and isolates them at school and in mainstream religions. it is not bullying to say someone is homophobic, if someone is going to say something negative about homosexuals and someone else says they are being homophobic then they just have to agree to disagree. But I don't see why anyone should change their opinion on what homophobia is.

 

[Revoltingest]

Yeah because someone isn't racist when they don't want a child from a different race playing with their kids, they just have a different opinion.

"Racism" differs from "homophibia" in that the former describes the attitude, while the latter is a pop psychological pseudo-diagnosis regarding the person (because of the attitude). Although, they are similar in that they're both often wielded with careless abandon to demonize the other side in an issue.

The fact is "I don't agree with homosexuality" opinions contribute to a society that is already homophobic, a society that denies them marriage and isolates them at school and in mainstream religions.

I agree with you on this point. But it can be made without using the epithet "homophobic".

it is not bullying to say someone is homophobic, if someone is going to say something negative about homosexuals and someone else says they are being homophobic then they just have to agree to disagree. But I don't see why anyone should change their opinion on what homophobia is.

Most of the usage I see is to demonize, which is a form of bullying.

Here is my lame pop psy analysis:
LGBT types have had (& still have) a rough time of it under the heel of bigots & brutes. They & their advocates naturally feel anger towards their abusers. They act out with harsh words towards those perceived as the enemy. But this anger clouds the distinction between the abusers (who hate, fear & persecute) & the non-abusers who simply view homosexuality as morally wrong.

 

[Wherenextcolumbus]

Here is my lame pop psy analysis:
LGBT types have had (& still have) a rough time of it under the heel of bigots & brutes. They & their advocates naturally feel anger towards their abusers. They act out with harsh words towards those perceived as the enemy. But this anger clouds the distinction between the abusers (who hate, fear & persecute) & the non-abusers who simply view homosexuality as morally wrong.

Let's put it this way Revolt, if a JW came to my door and I told them I am pro-gay trans, whatever, and do not wish to join their organisation because i think it is homophobic and I feel sorry for all the gay people brought up in that from a child, that is not bullying or demonizing.
If someone is coming to you with their opinion that homosexuality is morally wrong even though it is not hurting anyone and is none of their buisness, the person who they are saying it to can come back with their opinion as well.

 

[LuisDantas]

But try to change the opinions of people to make them think that homosexuality is perfectly normal and acceptable? No. That is just as bad as mistreating someone because they are homosexual.

I'm not following. What is wrong with attempting to change one's opinions on a matter of social acceptance?