Christians: How to tell if a Prophet is a true Prophet

[madhatter85]

I have moved my comments to this thread from another thread. And i would like 9-10ths penguin to respond even though i posted it as a DIR.

A Prophet does 3 things:

1) Teaches, a Prophet is a teacher. That is the essential meaning of the word. He teaches the body of truth, the Gospel, revealed by the Lord to man; and under inspiration explains it to the understanding of the people. He is an expounder of truth. Also, he shows that the way to human happiness is through obedience to God's Law. the purpose of his life is to uphold the Lord's plan of salvation. all this he does by close communion with the Lord, until he is "full of power, even the spirit of the Lord" (Micah 3:8)

2) Seer. A seer is one who sees with spiritual eyes. He perceives the meaning of that which seems obscure to others; therefore he is an interpreter and clarifier of eternal truth. He forsees the future from the past and the present. This he does by the power of the Lord operating through him directly, or indirectly with the aid of divine instruments such as the urim and Thummim. He is one who walks in the Lord's light with open eyes.

3) Revelator. A revelator makes known, with the Lord's help, something before unknown. It may be new or forgotten truth, or a new or forgotten application of known truth to man's need. Always the revelator deals with Truth, certain Truth and always it comes with the divine stamp of approval. Revelation may be recieved in various ways, but it always presupposes that the revelator has so lived and conducted himself as to be in tune with the divine spirit of revelation, the spirit of truth, and therefore capable or recieving divine messages.

In another sense any worthy church member who has the gift of the Holy Ghost can be termed a "prophet." the bible states clearly -

Numbers 11:29 -

29 And Moses said unto him, Enviest thou for my sake? would God that all the Lord’s people were prophets, and that the Lord would put his spirit upon them!

Paul later tells us that prophecy is a "greater gift," to be coveted, and not despised
1st Corinthians 12:

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

1st Thessalonians 5:

20 Despise not prophesyings.

From this we paint a clear picture that Prophetic voice is clear and concise and not confusing.
Also, Moroni shows us how to judge correctly what is prophetic utterances of God and what are of false prophets.
Moroni 7:16-17

16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

False prophesy, by definition, is a prophetic utterance which does not come to pass, or which blinds and leads men astray from the true Doctrine of Christ.

False prophecies can be made out of ignorance (zeal without true knowlege) or from a desire to thwart the plans of God. In either case, Satan is ultimately the beneficiary of the resulting confusion.

The following criteria given by Heber C. Snell is a great one to help us discern between true and false prophesy.

1) "Is the revelator is a disinterested or does he stand to profit from it's acceptance? The prophets must be self-denying to the point of willingness to die for the message."
2)"Is the prophetsi message in harmony with knowlege of the past and present, especially the scriptures?"
3) "Does the prophecy look confidently to the future for the consummation of knowlege and the triumph of Good over Evil?"
4) "What is it's position with refrence to man's freedom? The false prophet is afraid to see intelligence liberated- he fears investigation of ideas lest his own suffer by comparison. Not so the true prophet. As the prophet Joseph smith said, 'I teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves.' "
5) "The greatest of all tests: the tests of accurate results. Does the prophecy come to pass?"
6)"What is the personal integrity of the revelator?"

-Heber c. Snell

 

[madhatter85]

1) "Is the revelator is a disinterested or does he stand to profit from it's acceptance? The prophets must be self-denying to the point of willingness to die for the message."

Good question, Have any of our prophets profited from the message of the restoration. I have to assert that no they did not. He never made any money off being a prohet and he worked for his own living. also, persecutions and vehement attacks abounded in the days of Joseph Smith, his family and his friends were all at risk of being killed by angry mobs all the time. This behavior of angry mobs is clearly not of God.
2nd Nephi 28:

19 For the kingdom of the devil must shake, and they which belong to it must needs be stirred up unto repentance, or the devil will grasp them with his everlasting chains, and they be stirred up to anger, and perish;
20 For behold, at that day shall he rage in the hearts of the children of men, and stir them up to anger against that which is good.

2)"Is the prophet's message in harmony with knowlege of the past and present, especially the scriptures?"

Clearly it has to be, in regards to LDS scripture, seeing as we dedicate years of our life to studying the scripture and scruitinizing every single detail of the Bible (the only scripture previous to jospeh smith) and looking for contradictions between it and the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of great price. and when interpited correctly nothing conflicts with eachother but instead work harmoniously to combine all knowlege of the past with current revelations for the Dispensation of the Fulness fo times.

3) "Does the prophecy look confidently to the future for the consummation of knowlege and the triumph of Good over Evil?"

Clearly, This message speaks for itself. we look forward to that day of redemption and judgement more so than i think alot of other chrisitans do.

4) "What is it's position with refrence to man's freedom? The false prophet is afraid to see intelligence liberated- he fears investigation of ideas lest his own suffer by comparison. Not so the true prophet. As the prophet Joseph smith said, 'I teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves.' "

Jospeh smith fought for everyone's freedom. and not only secular freedoms such as slavery, and the right to vote. but also from all kinds of bondage. Debts and addictions especially. in fact, women in utah had the right to vote and had been actively voting for years before the women's right movement. also, black men and women lived free in the utah territory long before slavery was abolished.

5) "The greatest of all tests: the tests of accurate results. Does the prophecy come to pass?"

I can assure you that yes this is correct. there has not been a single prophecy uttered by the mouths of our prophets which have not come to pass. There have been fradulent attempts and creating prophesy where there was none by some people throughout history of the church (both in the church and out of it), all have been quickly debunked and deemd fraudulent by not only the church but those outside of it.

6)"What is the personal integrity of the revelator?"

that would make them be subject do deep scrutiny, and another question in my mind is if they are afraid of what people might find in thier past. i can assure you that a person with such strong integrity will not waver or be afraid of what people will discover about them. All the prophets have been under direct scruitiny by secular agencies and groups that lay in wait to try and attack the credibility of the prophets, and they have yet to find anything.

-Heber c. Snell

Thanks Heber for those wonderful questions.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I have moved my comments to this thread from another thread. And i would like 9-10ths penguin to respond even though i posted it as a DIR.

A Prophet does 3 things:

1) Teaches, a Prophet is a teacher. That is the essential meaning of the word. He teaches the body of truth, the Gospel, revealed by the Lord to man; and under inspiration explains it to the understanding of the people. He is an expounder of truth. Also, he shows that the way to human happiness is through obedience to God's Law. the purpose of his life is to uphold the Lord's plan of salvation. all this he does by close communion with the Lord, until he is "full of power, even the spirit of the Lord" (Micah 3:8)

2) Seer. A seer is one who sees with spiritual eyes. He perceives the meaning of that which seems obscure to others; therefore he is an interpreter and clarifier of eternal truth. He forsees the future from the past and the present. This he does by the power of the Lord operating through him directly, or indirectly with the aid of divine instruments such as the urim and Thummim. He is one who walks in the Lord's light with open eyes.

3) Revelator. A revelator makes known, with the Lord's help, something before unknown. It may be new or forgotten truth, or a new or forgotten application of known truth to man's need. Always the revelator deals with Truth, certain Truth and always it comes with the divine stamp of approval. Revelation may be recieved in various ways, but it always presupposes that the revelator has so lived and conducted himself as to be in tune with the divine spirit of revelation, the spirit of truth, and therefore capable or recieving divine messages.

Okay... in what way do you think the people in question meet this standard?

The following criteria given by Heber C. Snell is a great one to help us discern between true and false prophesy.

1) "Is the revelator is a disinterested or does he stand to profit from it's acceptance? The prophets must be self-denying to the point of willingness to die for the message."
2)"Is the prophetsi message in harmony with knowlege of the past and present, especially the scriptures?"
3) "Does the prophecy look confidently to the future for the consummation of knowlege and the triumph of Good over Evil?"
4) "What is it's position with refrence to man's freedom? The false prophet is afraid to see intelligence liberated- he fears investigation of ideas lest his own suffer by comparison. Not so the true prophet. As the prophet Joseph smith said, 'I teach them correct principles and let them govern themselves.' "
5) "The greatest of all tests: the tests of accurate results. Does the prophecy come to pass?"
6)"What is the personal integrity of the revelator?"

-Heber c. Snell

Do the prophecies of the LDS Apostles meet these criteria? What sorts of things did they prophesy?

 

[madhatter85]

Okay... in what way do you think the people in question meet this standard?

Do the prophecies of the LDS Apostles meet these criteria? What sorts of things did they prophesy?

Joseph Smith prophesied of the American Civil War 29 years prior to it happening as recorded in the 87th section of the Doctrine and Covenants

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;
2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.

Fort Sumter is in South Carolina where confederate forces attacked. This was the beginning of the hostilities in the American Civil War, and it was South Carolina that led the attack on the northern states

There are also many spcfic details that he prophesied about concerning the southern states calling on Great Britan for aide.

Also that war would be poured out upon all nations after the civil war had ended.

List of wars involving the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

After the Civil war the US has rarely been at peace with wars and contentions tirred up all over the world and they all callign on us for help.

For more prophecies of Joseph Smith please refer to
LDS FAQ: Fulfilled Prophecies of Joseph Smith, the Mormon Prophet

in Summary a list of Prophetic Utterances from Joseph Smith (not complete)

Accurate Prophecies of the Civil War
The Saints to Flourish in the Rocky Mountains
The Liberty Jail Prophecies: Brightness in the Midst of Gloom
The Saints to Escape Enemies Within 5 Years
The Stephen A. Douglas Prophecy
A Prediction of Destruction in Jackson County, Missouri
Condemned to Execution, Joseph Prophesies of Deliverance
Prediction of the Three Witnesses to the Book of Mormon
The Prophetic Book of Mormon
The Prophetic "Word of Wisdom" - (Mormons who follow it live an average of 8-11 years longer than the national average)
Prophetic Miracles Involving Newel K. Whitney
The Hearts of the Children to Turn to Their Fathers (Geneology is huge not only with LDS members but everyoen around the world when it wasn't so big before)
Prediction of Stakes in Boston and New York
Joseph Predicts His Death
Dan Jones to Serve a Mission in Wales
Sidney Rigdon to Be a Spokesman
Healing and Prophecy with the Johnsons in Kirtland
Escape of Stephen Markham
Apostles to Depart from Far West on 26 April 1839\
The miraculous survival of Willard Richards at Carthage Jail on June 27, 1844 (one year prior Jospeh Smith prophesied of the events in the Jail)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Joseph Smith prophesied of the American Civil War 29 years prior to it happening as recorded in the 87th section of the Doctrine and Covenants

So... in 1832, near the peak of the Nullification Crisis in which South Carolina was threatening to secede from the United States and President Jackson was threatening to use force against South Carolina in a volatile situation that had all the earmarks of the leadup to the American Revolution, Joseph Smith predicted that the events in filling his newspaper at the time would lead to war? I don't find this particularily compelling. It'd be like someone predicting in 1962 that there would be a war starting in Cuba between the USA and the USSR.

Fort Sumter is in South Carolina where confederate forces attacked. This was the beginning of the hostilities in the American Civil War, and it was South Carolina that led the attack on the northern states

There are also many spcfic details that he prophesied about concerning the southern states calling on Great Britan for aide.

Also that war would be poured out upon all nations after the civil war had ended.

Does it say that? I read it as saying that the specific conflict that began in South Carolina will eventually grow until it encompasses the entire world, which didn't happen.

List of wars involving the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

After the Civil war the US has rarely been at peace with wars and contentions tirred up all over the world and they all callign on us for help.

In that list, I see a continuous stream of wars with barely a break from 1775 right up to present day. Why should we consider the Civil War to be any sort of starting point?

For more prophecies of Joseph Smith please refer to
LDS FAQ: Fulfilled Prophecies of Joseph Smith, the Mormon Prophet

I'll have to look at them when I have time. If I forget, feel free to pester me.

 

[tomspug]

Woah. I'm having deja-vu!

 

[madhatter85]

So... in 1832, near the peak of the Nullification Crisis in which South Carolina was threatening to secede from the United States and President Jackson was threatening to use force against South Carolina in a volatile situation that had all the earmarks of the leadup to the American Revolution, Joseph Smith predicted that the events in filling his newspaper at the time would lead to war? I don't find this particularily compelling. It'd be like someone predicting in 1962 that there would be a war starting in Cuba between the USA and the USSR.

From wikipedia-
The reductions were too little for South Carolina, and in November 1832 a state convention declared that the tariffs of both 1828 and 1832 were unconstitutional and unenforceable in South Carolina after February 1, 1833. Military preparations to resist anticipated Federal enforcement were initiated by the state. In late February both a Force Bill, authorizing the President to use military force against South Carolina, and a new negotiated tariff satisfactory to South Carolina were passed by Congress. The South Carolina convention reconvened and repealed its Nullification Ordinance on March 11, 1833.

It was not entirely predictable that war was on the horizon. At this point both sides had claimed victory and it was over.

it was not until the 1850s that slavery and territorial expansion became a divisive issue int he united states that caused the War.

Does it say that? I read it as saying that the specific conflict that began in South Carolina will eventually grow until it encompasses the entire world, which didn't happen.

Wrong, you did not read the prophecy correctly. It does nto state the Civil war will reach to all nations, but that war will eventualy be poured otu upon all nations.

Modern anti-Mormons try to mock Joseph's prophecy as obvious, though it clearly wasn't. Some, in their desperation to attack, may even be tempted to alter the words of the prophecy to make an easier target. Norman Geisler's essay, "Scripture," in the book The Counterfeit Gospel of Mormonism (Eugene, Oregon: Harvest House, 1998, pp. 9-49) subtly changes the phrase "the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations" to "the time will come that the war will be poured out upon all nations" and then argues that this part of the prophecy deals with the Civil War only (see Alma Allred, "Coin of the Realm: Beware of Specious Specie" in FARMS Review of Books, Vol. 12, No. 1, 2000, pp. 137-174). This is, of course, the leading tactic in anti-Mormon writings: misrepresent LDS teachings with something easily attacked, and then attack the new (but bogus) target. It's much easier that way, but only the unwary will be fooled.

In that list, I see a continuous stream of wars with barely a break from 1775 right up to present day. Why should we consider the Civil War to be any sort of starting point?

There were wars and rumors of wars even before then but ones that the united states were officialy involved in began in 1775, But those were small scale wars with indians, the french (which never touched land), and the northern states in Africa (which was effectively a pirate war.) The Sabine Expedition caused the US mexico border to be held before Mexico Surrendered.

My point is that there have alwasy been wars, and the ones before hand were much smaller and concentrated. but since the Civil war, wars have encompassed the entire world. World war 1, World War 2, and all of the wars in between.

I'll have to look at them when I have time. If I forget, feel free to pester me.

No problem. they are alot of prophecies, all of which have come to pass and there are many other prophecies that have yet to happen.

One that i find interesting was this prophecy.

“The Prophet called on all who held the Priesthood to gather into the little log school house they had there. It was a small house, perhaps 14 feet square. But it held the whole of the Priesthood of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who were then in the town of Kirtland. … When we got together the Prophet called upon the Elders of Israel with him to bear testimony of this work. … When they got through the Prophet said, ‘Brethren, I have been very much edified and instructed in your testimonies here tonight, but I want to say to you before the Lord, that you know no more concerning the destinies of this Church and kingdom than a babe upon its mother’s lap. You don’t comprehend it.’ I was rather surprised. He said, ‘It is only a little handful of Priesthood you see here tonight, but this Church will fill North and South America—it will fill the world.’ ”

many, many, many churches have started and dwindled and perished, and others start in small communities and flurish within the community but rarely do they ever become larger than that.

Since then the church has grown to over 13 million in membership, alot of which are in North and South america (which he mentions sepcifically). And there are more members living outside the US than in it. 4.5 million lds members in latin america when the article was written (2004)
NBC: Mormonism spreads in Latin America - World news - MSNBC.com

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

From wikipedia-
The reductions were too little for South Carolina, and in November 1832 a state convention declared that the tariffs of both 1828 and 1832 were unconstitutional and unenforceable in South Carolina after February 1, 1833. Military preparations to resist anticipated Federal enforcement were initiated by the state. In late February both a Force Bill, authorizing the President to use military force against South Carolina, and a new negotiated tariff satisfactory to South Carolina were passed by Congress. The South Carolina convention reconvened and repealed its Nullification Ordinance on March 11, 1833.

It was not entirely predictable that war was on the horizon. At this point both sides had claimed victory and it was over.

Just so we're clear; exactly when was the prophesy made, and when did it become public knowledge?

it was not until the 1850s that slavery and territorial expansion became a divisive issue int he united states that caused the War.

Yes, but prior to that, there were rumblings of war for other reasons as I pointed out.

Wrong, you did not read the prophecy correctly. It does nto state the Civil war will reach to all nations, but that war will eventualy be poured otu upon all nations.

... "beginning at this place." Do you take "this place" to mean something other than South Carolina?

Can you describe how war was "poured out on all nations" in a way that began in South Carolina?

There were wars and rumors of wars even before then but ones that the united states were officialy involved in began in 1775, But those were small scale wars with indians, the french (which never touched land), and the northern states in Africa (which was effectively a pirate war.) The Sabine Expedition caused the US mexico border to be held before Mexico Surrendered.

The American Revolution was not a small-scale war.

The War of 1812 was not a small-scale war.

My point is that there have alwasy been wars, and the ones before hand were much smaller and concentrated. but since the Civil war, wars have encompassed the entire world. World war 1, World War 2, and all of the wars in between.

None of which began in South Carolina.

World War I began in Serbia and didn't even formally involve the US except for its last year. World War II began in Poland (to the Europeans) or Manchuria (to the Asians).

No war since the American Civil War has begun in South Carolina. If "this place" is South Carolina, war has never been "poured out on all nations, starting at this place."

No problem. they are alot of prophecies, all of which have come to pass and there are many other prophecies that have yet to happen.

One that i find interesting was this prophecy.



many, many, many churches have started and dwindled and perished, and others start in small communities and flurish within the community but rarely do they ever become larger than that.

Since then the church has grown to over 13 million in membership, alot of which are in North and South america (which he mentions sepcifically). And there are more members living outside the US than in it. 4.5 million lds members in latin america when the article was written (2004)
NBC: Mormonism spreads in Latin America - World news - MSNBC.com

This seems to me to be the essence of self-fulfilling prophecy: if you survive and thrive, the prophecy comes true; if you don't, nobody pays any regard to the prophecy at all. It strikes me that if every church announces that they are ordained by God, then every single church that survives would feel vindicated by their survival.

 

[madhatter85]

Just so we're clear; exactly when was the prophesy made, and when did it become public knowledge?

December or 1832 is when the revelation was recieved.

Yes, but prior to that, there were rumblings of war for other reasons as I pointed out.

but things settled down for 28 years, It was not "obvious" that war was immenent.

... "beginning at this place." Do you take "this place" to mean something other than South Carolina?
Can you describe how war was "poured out on all nations" in a way that began in South Carolina?
None of which began in South Carolina.

Let us very carefully examine the prophecy of the 87th Section of the doctrine and Covenants.

1 Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;
2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place.

The "WARS" that will shortly come to pass is Plural, meaning it is not limited to just the Civil war, in which the rebellion of South Carolina starts.

Then, he goes to to state that "The time will come" or in other words, "will eventually come" that war (not specific to the Civil war) will be poured out upon ALL nations.

"Beginning at this place" it is stating the Civil war as a refrence point showing that large scale world wide wars would shortly follow the American Civil war.

This prophecy was never intended to be limited to just the American Civil War, rather all wars shortly preceeding it on a global scale.

Never before that point in history had there been a full scale World War. where all nations were affected.

World War I began in Serbia and didn't even formally involve the US except for its last year. World War II began in Poland (to the Europeans) or Manchuria (to the Asians).
No war since the American Civil War has begun in South Carolina. If "this place" is South Carolina, war has never been "poured out on all nations, starting at this place."

Again it's not stating that all wars originiate or are caused because of South Carolina, It's using the Civil war as a refrence point as i mentioned above.

This seems to me to be the essence of self-fulfilling prophecy: if you survive and thrive, the prophecy comes true; if you don't, nobody pays any regard to the prophecy at all. It strikes me that if every church announces that they are ordained by God, then every single church that survives would feel vindicated by their survival.

but the claim made there was one of a large scale. it was not "We will survive" but rather "we will fill the ENTIRE world" not even the RCC has made any kind of prophecy like that. Especially since they do not believe in continuing revelation. the main reason the RCC is so large is because they controlled the spanish government and sent out expeditions to control regions such as the Philippines, mexican territory, and other well-known places around the world.

on a side note.
Already Muslims are more accepting of Mormonism than main stream chrisitanity because MSC has pretty much denounced Mormonism from MSC. and because of that i'm willing to bet that you will see LDS missions, stakes and temples being built in the middle east where chrisitans are mostly despised. and if that does happen then this prophecy will in fact be fulfilled. It's currently in the process of fulfillment.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

December or 1832 is when the revelation was recieved.

Thanks.

but things settled down for 28 years, It was not "obvious" that war was immenent.

It was also not obvious that things would settle down.

Let us very carefully examine the prophecy of the 87th Section of the doctrine and Covenants.

The "WARS" that will shortly come to pass is Plural, meaning it is not limited to just the Civil war, in which the rebellion of South Carolina starts.

Then, he goes to to state that "The time will come" or in other words, "will eventually come" that war (not specific to the Civil war) will be poured out upon ALL nations.

"Beginning at this place" it is stating the Civil war as a refrence point showing that large scale world wide wars would shortly follow the American Civil war.

Hang on a minute. Let's address some of your assumptions:

- the prophecy deals with the Civil War, and not some prior conflict that never happened.
- the use of "beginning" in the prophecy only means "coming earlier in time", and nothing about South Carolina being the root of some worldwide conflict or even it playing some role in the first in a logical chain of events.

Could you please explain your reasoning for each of these?

This prophecy was never intended to be limited to just the American Civil War, rather all wars shortly preceeding it on a global scale.

Never before that point in history had there been a full scale World War. where all nations were affected.

Actually, there has never been a war like what you describe. A number of nations did not participate in either World War. IMO, there has never been a truly global war.

Again it's not stating that all wars originiate or are caused because of South Carolina, It's using the Civil war as a refrence point as i mentioned above.

No, it doesn't use the Civil War as a reference point; you do. The phrase "civil war" does not appear anywhere in the prophecy.

But please describe how using the American Civil War as a reference point in this way is anything other than arbitrary.

It seems like you're reducing the prophecy down to "there will be a war that starts in South Carolina. Later on, there will be a big war." This seems to me to be so vague as to be trivial.

but the claim made there was one of a large scale. it was not "We will survive" but rather "we will fill the ENTIRE world" not even the RCC has made any kind of prophecy like that. Especially since they do not believe in continuing revelation.

The Roman Catholic Church doesn't believe in continuing revelation? :sarcastic I suppose somebody had better tell them before they name more recently-deceased people saints, and before the Pope speaks ex cathedra again.

And the LDS Church has not filled the entire world. The prophecy has not come to pass.

the main reason the RCC is so large is because they controlled the spanish government and sent out expeditions to control regions such as the Philippines, mexican territory, and other well-known places around the world.

And the main reason the LDS Church is so large is because it was able to find a place where it could grow in its formative years with very little interference or oppression from others, right?

on a side note.
Already Muslims are more accepting of Mormonism than main stream chrisitanity because MSC has pretty much denounced Mormonism from MSC. and because of that i'm willing to bet that you will see LDS missions, stakes and temples being built in the middle east where chrisitans are mostly despised. and if that does happen then this prophecy will in fact be fulfilled. It's currently in the process of fulfillment.

If you say so. It makes sense to me that Muslim countries would have less of a problem with the LDS Church than with Trinitarian Christianity, if they view Trinitarianism as polytheism.

However, in the Muslim countries I know of where apostasy from Islam is still considered a crime, I haven't heard of any making an exception for Mormon converts.

 

[madhatter85]

Thanks.

It was also not obvious that things would settle down.


Hang on a minute. Let's address some of your assumptions:

- the prophecy deals with the Civil War, and not some prior conflict that never happened.
- the use of "beginning" in the prophecy only means "coming earlier in time", and nothing about South Carolina being the root of some worldwide conflict or even it playing some role in the first in a logical chain of events.

Could you please explain your reasoning for each of these?


Actually, there has never been a war like what you describe. A number of nations did not participate in either World War. IMO, there has never been a truly global war.


No, it doesn't use the Civil War as a reference point; you do. The phrase "civil war" does not appear anywhere in the prophecy.

But please describe how using the American Civil War as a reference point in this way is anything other than arbitrary.

It seems like you're reducing the prophecy down to "there will be a war that starts in South Carolina. Later on, there will be a big war." This seems to me to be so vague as to be trivial.

this comes down to how you and I interpit the prophecy differently. To me, i see prophetic utterances that have come to pass and i have shown you how i interpit it.

also i think i would like to mention that no matter who they are or how they are speaking, humans are creatures of flaws. never once have i stated that Joseph smith was perfect or any of the other prophets.

you do not interpit it the same way. so here is where we have the disconnect. but it is okay, there are plenty of other prophecies which have come to pass which we can debate over.

The Roman Catholic Church doesn't believe in continuing revelation? :sarcastic I suppose somebody had better tell them before they name more recently-deceased people saints, and before the Pope speaks ex cathedra again.

that is a vote situation, not a direct revelation from God. it's who the pope and those in power in the vatican deem worthy to recieve thier "sainthood"

And the LDS Church has not filled the entire world. The prophecy has not come to pass.

I stated that already, It is in the process of being fulfilled.

And the main reason the LDS Church is so large is because it was able to find a place where it could grow in its formative years with very little interference or oppression from others, right?

and there's a whole lot of other prophecies in reagrds to that whole story as well.

If you say so. It makes sense to me that Muslim countries would have less of a problem with the LDS Church than with Trinitarian Christianity, if they view Trinitarianism as polytheism.

However, in the Muslim countries I know of where apostasy from Islam is still considered a crime, I haven't heard of any making an exception for Mormon converts.

ah, but if they are accepting of it it would only make sense that they would make the exception.

but that's a "what if" and this is a prophecy which is currently in the process of being fulfilled. so when things settle down we can revisit this particular prophecy, agreed?

If so let's choose another prophecy of his to debate about. and If so, we might even want to move this to the one-on-one debates because i don;t think anyone else is interested in it as it seems :drool:

 

[Minister_E]

Madhatter U said it perfectly

 

[augusta]

Do you believe a female could be a prophet, seer and revelator?

 

[augusta]

Please give description of divine instruments which you call urim and thummim.

 

[madhatter85]

Do you believe a female could be a prophet, seer and revelator?

Every person has the ability to recieve revelation for those whom they are in spiritual stewardship over.

For instance, we have female general authorities who are over the Relief Society, Young Women's, and Primary. These women do not hold the priesthood, but instead are set apart for hier callings that they may recieve inspiration on how to teach and instruct their respective stewardships. This pattern mantains itelf all the way down the ranks in the church to the very mother who recieves inspiration for thier children.

I prefer to think of women as already having the most important calling in the world "Motherhood". for without mothers our civilization would abruptly end. Men ont he other hand do not have this calling of bearing and nurturing children. Men, without the priesthood are merely boys with no responsibility. The priesthood is a responsibility, not a power. and it is given to every single male in the church who is worthy to hold it.

so as a formal "Prophet?" no, a woman cannot be a prophet for she cannot bare priesthood of God.

Can a woman "prophesy" for that which she has been given spiritual stewardship over? yes, i have seen it happen. Some call it a "mother's intuition" I see it as thier spiritual calling in life and the greatest responsibility in the entire world.

 

[madhatter85]

Please give description of divine instruments which you call urim and thummim.

there are many descriptions because Urim and Thummim have been used to describe many different things in regards to spiritual discernment. In the Case of Jospeh Smith, i coped the following paragraph from Guide to the Scriptures: Urim and Thummim

Instruments prepared by God to assist man in obtaining revelation and in translating languages. In the Hebrew language the words mean “lights and perfections.” The Urim and Thummim consist of two stones set in silver bows and sometimes used with a breastplate

Joseph Smith only used them for a limited tim as he waxed strong in righteousness and with understanding and discerning the spirit, he no longer required the use of these devine instruments to translate the Book of Mormon from The Golden Plates.

 

[tomspug]

Moroni 7:16-17
Quote:
16 For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.
17 But whatsoever thing persuadeth men to do evil, and believe not in Christ, and deny him, and serve not God, then ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of the devil; for after this manner doth the devil work, for he persuadeth no man to do good, no, not one; neither do his angels; neither do they who subject themselves unto him.

Once again, the Book of Mormon is wrong on its interpretation of the Bible. The Holy Spirit is NOT given to every man. Man may be God-breathed, created by God, but the Holy Spirit is a gift for those willing to receive it.

Our knowledge of good and evil (as clearly shown by Genesis) is due to the fall of man.

 

[madhatter85]

Once again, the Book of Mormon is wrong on its interpretation of the Bible. The Holy Spirit is NOT given to every man. Man may be God-breathed, created by God, but the Holy Spirit is a gift for those willing to receive it.

Our knowledge of good and evil (as clearly shown by Genesis) is due to the fall of man.

Actually.........

The holy spirit (Light of Christ) is given to every man, The "Gift" of the Holy Ghost is what is available to all men but first needs be accepted through baptism by immerison

Luke 3:

16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

D&C 33:

11 Yea, repent and be baptized, every one of you, for a remission of your sins; yea, be baptized even by water, and then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost.

Christ is “the true light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world"

John 1:9

9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

The Spirit of God (Holy Ghost) is given to every person born.

The Gift of the Holy Ghost (remission of Sins) only comes through baptism.

 

[yousaf]

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever."(john ch.14 v.16)

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."(john 15;26)

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you".(john ch.16 v. 7)

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me".
(john 16:12-140

 

[idea]

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever."(john ch.14 v.16)

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me."(john 15;26)

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; it is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you".(john ch.16 v. 7)

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth is come, he will guide you unto all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me".
(john 16:12-140

I agree, it is only through the comforter, the Holy Spirit, that we can know anything.