Christians: If God Loves Us and Wants Us to Join Him in Heaven, Why Didn't He Put Us There?

[Storm]

OK, so I recognize that it's just an intellectual exercise for you (as it is for me)

That was more for the lurkers than you.

but then even so, how does it make sense that god needed us to feel the opposite first in order to appreciate his gift of life in heaven?

"What we obtain too cheap, we esteem to light." For us to really, truly appreciate it, we need to know the other possibilities.

It seems to me that it boils down to the simple fact that if he had the power to create whatever he wanted, it doesn't make sense that he would do anytning else but.

Yeah, I know. I'm just saying that's not iron-clad. It might be right, but there are other solutions that might be right, too.

And, to try to rationalize why he wouldn't have just done what he wanted in the first place is pure mental gymnastics which avoid the bottom line IMO.

Gymnastics is good exercise.

 

[MSizer]

Msizer, I just wanted to make sure you didn't miss my ballet on post 16

No, I didn't miss it. I'm just hoping that I can reflect on it enough to come up with a justifiable reason to avoid opening a bible. I didn't plan to have myself trapped between reading the bible or admitting to choose ignorance. I'm still working on it.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

No, I didn't miss it. I'm just hoping that I can reflect on it enough to come up with a justifiable reason to avoid opening a bible. I didn't plan to have myself trapped between reading the bible or admitting to choose ignorance. I'm still working on it.

Your too much!

Well at least your honest!

Then again, you could just ignore my posts altogether and conclude you have solid grounds for asking such a post.

 

[Riverwolf]

That doesn't address the question of the OP. Even if you don't consider heaven a place literally, there's no doubt that most major christian sects teach that it is somehow something in which christians will be united with god. So to say that it's not a place doesn't address my question, unless you're arguing that heaven doesn't exist at all.

I'm arguing that the definitions of heaven have not been established. If heaven is a state of mind, achievable during life, then he did place us in it, and we left of our own accord.

 

[Charity]

I've never understood how god supposedly loves us and wants us to join him in his family in heaven, yet he put us on earth first with the capacity to fail, for which we could potentially loose the priviledge of joining him.

I doesn't make sense. Why didn't he just put us right in heaven from the beginning?

If you have a real desire and want to do something you work for it

It's through trials, hard work and determination that we reach our goal
Sometimes we make wrong choices and get sidetracked but it's finding out your on the wrong road you turn around and get back on the road to your destination.

We have no promise that things won't be rough but we have a way of escape that will make us able to withstand our problems.
Threre aren't many freebies in life and working for your reward and obtaining it is "out of this world".

 

[blackout]

I'm arguing that the definitions of heaven have not been established. If heaven is a state of mind, achievable during life, then he did place us in it, and we left of our own accord.

Jesus is attributed with saying "The Kingdom is Within".
(in the midst of you.... Now.... etc etc)


I'm thinking the Kingdom of God = Heaven.

 

[footprints]

I've never understood how god supposedly loves us and wants us to join him in his family in heaven, yet he put us on earth first with the capacity to fail, for which we could potentially loose the priviledge of joining him.

I doesn't make sense. Why didn't he just put us right in heaven from the beginning?

LOL I don't know how a Christian would answer this, but as an Agnostic, the most rational and logical explanation I have to this comes from Jesus. "Unless you change and become like this child you will never enter the Kingdom of Heaven."

Could you imagine how disrupted Heaven would be if normal human intelligence were allowed in the place. LOL Heaven wouldn't be Utopia any more, it would be more like a civil war.

 

[Amill]

Makes god feel better when people "choose" to be with him, instead of forcing them. Or he likes what he gets to do with people who don't want to be with him.

 

[Katzpur]

I've never understood how god supposedly loves us and wants us to join him in his family in heaven, yet he put us on earth first with the capacity to fail, for which we could potentially loose the priviledge of joining him.

I doesn't make sense. Why didn't he just put us right in heaven from the beginning?

According to LDS doctrine, we started out in Heaven, living as the spirit sons and daughters of God, in His presence. Our love, admiration and respect for Him was boundless and we wanted to be like Him. Since He, too, wanted this for us, but knew that we could only attain this state of perfection by first experiencing mortality and learning to distinguish between good and evil, He proposed a plan by which we could come to earth to gain physical bodies and be tried and tested. We were informed that in order for us to be able to return to Him, one of two things must happen -- we must either live perfect lives (something we all recognized would be impossible) or someone for whom this was possible must be willing to accept the responsibility to pay the price for our sins. The Father's Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, accepted this role and we chose to come to Earth. One third of God's spirit children rejected the plan and instead chose to follow Lucifer, who had also offered to be our Savior but who had insisted that the resulting glory be his instead of his Father's. He and his followers were cast out of Heaven, while the rest of us awaited our chance to be born to mortal parents and start on our journey to become like our Father in Heaven. I know... it's a pretty different view from that of most other Christians.

 

[MSizer]

I'm arguing that the definitions of heaven have not been established. If heaven is a state of mind, achievable during life, then he did place us in it, and we left of our own accord.

But I'm asking christians, and according to the nicene creed, recited by catholics (the original christian establishment) heaven is literally a place where the physical body will be after resurrection.

 

[MSizer]

If you have a real desire and want to do something you work for it

It's through trials, hard work and determination that we reach our goal
Sometimes we make wrong choices and get sidetracked but it's finding out your on the wrong road you turn around and get back on the road to your destination.

We have no promise that things won't be rough but we have a way of escape that will make us able to withstand our problems.
Threre aren't many freebies in life and working for your reward and obtaining it is "out of this world".

Yes I know that's how this world works. I'm asking why god bothered creating this world for us to suffer in before going to the world where he supposedly wants us to be in the first place.

It's as if a new yorker wanted to visit tampa bay, but drove through seattle first. It doesn't make any sense. Why not just drive straight to tampa? Why not just put us in heaven?

 

[MSizer]

According to LDS doctrine, we started out in Heaven, living as the spirit sons and daughters of God, in His presence. Our love, admiration and respect for Him was boundless and we wanted to be like Him. Since He, too, wanted this for us, but knew that we could only attain this state of perfection by first experiencing mortality and learning to distinguish between good and evil, He proposed a plan by which we could come to earth to gain physical bodies and be tried and tested. We were informed that in order for us to be able to return to Him, one of two things must happen -- we must either live perfect lives (something we all recognized would be impossible) or someone for whom this was possible must be willing to accept the responsibility to pay the price for our sins. The Father's Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, accepted this role and we chose to come to Earth. One third of God's spirit children rejected the plan and instead chose to follow Lucifer, who had also offered to be our Savior but who had insisted that the resulting glory be his instead of his Father's. He and his followers were cast out of Heaven, while the rest of us awaited our chance to be born to mortal parents and start on our journey to become like our Father in Heaven. I know... it's a pretty different view from that of most other Christians.

Well, thanks Katzpur for actually answering the question. I don't buy it as an explanation, as it still is seems completely futile, since god could have just made us to appreciate him in the first place. It seems to me that it's as if you wanted you fence to be biege, so you painted it white and hoped that over time the white paint would become dull and eventually be beige. Why not just paint it beige? That would solve the problem right there. Every board would be beige, rather than risking having some which turn brown instead.

 

[blackout]

According to LDS doctrine, we started out in Heaven, living as the spirit sons and daughters of God, in His presence. Our love, admiration and respect for Him was boundless and we wanted to be like Him. Since He, too, wanted this for us, but knew that we could only attain this state of perfection by first experiencing mortality and learning to distinguish between good and evil, He proposed a plan by which we could come to earth to gain physical bodies and be tried and tested. We were informed that in order for us to be able to return to Him, one of two things must happen -- we must either live perfect lives (something we all recognized would be impossible) or someone for whom this was possible must be willing to accept the responsibility to pay the price for our sins. The Father's Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ, accepted this role and we chose to come to Earth. One third of God's spirit children rejected the plan and instead chose to follow Lucifer, who had also offered to be our Savior but who had insisted that the resulting glory be his instead of his Father's. He and his followers were cast out of Heaven, while the rest of us awaited our chance to be born to mortal parents and start on our journey to become like our Father in Heaven. I know... it's a pretty different view from that of most other Christians.

Honestly? It's a really weird plan.

 

[Riverwolf]

But I'm asking christians, and according to the nicene creed, recited by catholics (the original christian establishment) heaven is literally a place where the physical body will be after resurrection.

Okay. Why wasn't that established in the OP?

 

[MSizer]

Okay. Why wasn't that established in the OP?

The same reason I didn't find it necessary to point out that we don't need to worry about the smell of tent caterpillars in this thread. Oh, and, not about U2 lyrics either. Oh, almost forgot, don't worry about 5W-40 engine oil, I really don't care about that with respect to the traditional popular christian view of heaven.

Sorry for the sarcasm, but I find the question a bit out of order.

 

[Riverwolf]

The same reason I didn't find it necessary to point out that we don't need to worry about the smell of tent caterpillars in this thread. Oh, and, not about U2 lyrics either. Oh, almost forgot, don't worry about 5W-40 engine oil, I really don't care about that with respect to the traditional popular christian view of heaven.

Sorry for the sarcasm, but I find the question a bit out of order.

Christianity is not defined by the Nicene Creed alone. There are SEVERAL Christian sects that don't follow it.

Therefore, why didn't you clarify that you were talking only about those Christian sects that do?

 

[MSizer]

Christianity is not defined by the Nicene Creed alone. There are SEVERAL Christian sects that don't follow it.

Therefore, why didn't you clarify that you were talking only about those Christian sects that do?

Becuase obviously I suck at writing OPs. There, can we move on now?

 

[Mr Cheese]

I've never understood how god supposedly loves us and wants us to join him in his family in heaven, yet he put us on earth first with the capacity to fail, for which we could potentially loose the priviledge of joining him.

I doesn't make sense. Why didn't he just put us right in heaven from the beginning?

How does a drop of water remember it is an ocean?

--Some person

 

[Charity]

Yes I know that's how this world works. I'm asking why god bothered creating this world for us to suffer in before going to the world where he supposedly wants us to be in the first place.

It's as if a new yorker wanted to visit tampa bay, but drove through seattle first. It doesn't make any sense. Why not just drive straight to tampa? Why not just put us in heaven?

As a person who wants to be a doctor should you just be allowed to go out and practice medicine without first working, learning, studying and preparing yourself to achieve the ultimate goal....No matter if you stop off in Seattle you still haven't arrived at the destination until you persevere to reach your goal....

 

[Mr Cheese]

But I'm asking christians, and according to the nicene creed, recited by catholics (the original christian establishment) heaven is literally a place where the physical body will be after resurrection.

not really, the bible also states this is false...
Paul of all people states this, I believe....