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Christians in America

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
How dare you.......I am not self righteousness. It is not my own but his righteousness that dwells in me. My life and my death are for his glory. I know you dont understand that because you are in the flesh
We understand just fine. You have broken so many of Christ's commandments, and your whole "woe is me" charade by comparing Christianity "suppression" to the systematic attempt at extermination of the Jewish community definitely also goes against what Christ taught.
Welcome to the abandoned land.
Common child, take my hand
Here there's no work or play
Only one bill to pay
There's just five words to say
As you go down, down, down...
You're gonna burn in hell.
Oh, burn in hell!
 
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waitasec

Veteran Member
Please tell me what document says the exact five words, "separation of church and state"?

alrighty the smarty pants...



“that is true, the phrase "separation of church and state" does not actually appear anywhere in the Constitution. There is a problem, however, in that some people draw incorrect conclusions from this fact. The absence of this phrase does not mean that it is an invalid concept or that it cannot be used as a legal or judicial principle.
There are any number of important legal concepts which do not appear in the Constitution with the exact phrasing people tend to use. For example, nowhere in the Constitution will you find words like "right to privacy" or even "right to a fair trial." Does this mean that no American citizen has a right to privacy or a fair trial? Does this mean that no judge should ever invoke these rights when reaching a decision?
….courts have found that the principle of a "religious liberty" exists behind in the First Amendment, even if those words are not actually there:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...
The point of such an amendment is twofold. First, it ensures that religious beliefs - private or organized - are removed from attempted government control. This is the reason why the government cannot tell either you or your church what to believe or to teach. Second, it ensures that the government does not get involved with enforcing, mandating, or promoting particular religious doctrines. This is what happens when the government "establishes" a church - and because doing so created so many problems in Europe, the authors of the Constitution wanted to try and prevent the same from happening here.
Can anyone deny that the First Amendment guarantees the principle of religious liberty, even though those words do not appear there? Similarly, the First Amendment guarantees the principle of the separation of church and state - by implication, because separating church and state is what allows religious liberty to exist."

Separation of Church and State: Is It In The Constitution? If It's Not in the Constitution, then it Doesn't Exist
 

Shadow Wolf

Certified People sTabber & Business Owner
Please tell me what document says the exact five words, "separation of church and state"?
Treaty of Tripoli, Article 11. To shorten to five words: UnitedStates not founded upon Christianity. (I posted it earlier in this thread.)
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Please tell me what document says the exact five words, "separation of church and state"?
None that I know of.

However, the similar phrase "wall of separation between church and state" appears in Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists and is used to refer to the First Amendment:

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.

Edit: it's not a direct quote from a legal document, but a reasonable re-phrasing of the implications of the document.

BTW: where in the Bible does it say "Trinity"? ;)
 

Smoke

Done here.
However, the similar phrase "wall of separation between church and state" appears in Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists and is used to refer to the First Amendment
Now, now. You know "conservatives" only believe in original intent when it suits their purposes.
 
Now, now. You know "conservatives" only believe in original intent when it suits their purposes.


No we read things in context. If I am wrong, I will admit it but separation of church and state is not in our constituion. Barry Lynn said firefighters cant put out fires at churches because it violates the separation of church and state.
 

Reverend Rick

Frubal Whore
Premium Member
Now Smoke, you know I come to this debate in good faith. My point is, a school should not teach religion or require prayer in classrooms, it should not ban it either. If students want to have a Bible club or Koran club after school, there should be no problem.

Hell, if students want to have a LHP club that should be OK too. I guess freedom scares people.

I want us to be more free and I believe deep down, you do too.

Why could not a Bible thumper want same sex relationships to become marriages or an Atheist stand up for a LHP club?
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Now Smoke, you know I come to this debate in good faith. My point is, a school should not teach religion or require prayer in classrooms, it should not ban it either. If students want to have a Bible club or Koran club after school, there should be no problem.

Hell, if students want to have a LHP club that should be OK too. I guess freedom scares people.

I want us to be more free and I believe deep down, you do too.

Why could not a Bible thumper want same sex relationships to become marriages or an Atheist stand up for a LHP club?

that would be great if we lived on a perfect world
but unfortunately we don't, extremism is a reality.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Now Smoke, you know I come to this debate in good faith. My point is, a school should not teach religion or require prayer in classrooms, it should not ban it either. If students want to have a Bible club or Koran club after school, there should be no problem.

Hell, if students want to have a LHP club that should be OK too. I guess freedom scares people.

I want us to be more free and I believe deep down, you do too.

Why could not a Bible thumper want same sex relationships to become marriages or an Atheist stand up for a LHP club?
The government is prohibited from assisting any religion, and providing a government venue for religious practices is assisting that religion. If nothing else it's simply a matter of law.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Now Smoke, you know I come to this debate in good faith. My point is, a school should not teach religion or require prayer in classrooms, it should not ban it either. If students want to have a Bible club or Koran club after school, there should be no problem.
I didn't think there was a problem. :confused:
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
Please tell me what document says the exact five words, "separation of church and state"?

Here's a post about separation of church and state that comes from a Constitutional scholar and which was left on my blog, Rick, sometime ago in relation to the John Freshwater case. I think it might interest you, so I am cutting and pasting it here:

Ed Darrell said:
Separation of church and state: It’s in the Constitution. I don’t play a constitutional lawyer on television, I am one*, but it seems to me anyone can read the Constitution and see. Especially if one understands that the Constitution sets up a limited government, that is as Madison described, one that can do only what is delegated to it. The Constitution is a short document.

First, in the Preamble, it is made clear that the document is a compact between citizens: “We the people . . . do ordain and establish this Constitution . . .” The usual role of God ordaining (in some western nations) is altered, intentionally. It is not God who establishes this government, but you and I, together. From teh first words of the Constitution, there is separation of church and state.

Second, in Article 1, the legislative branch is given no role in religion; neither is any religion given any role in the legislature. In Article 2, the executive branch gets no role in religion, and religion gets no role in the executive branch. In Article 3, the judicial branch gets no role in religion, and religion gets no role in the judicial branch. In Article 4, the people get a guarantee of a republican form of government in the states, but the states get no role in religion, and religion gets no role in state government. This is, by design, a perfect separation of church and state.

Third, in Article VI, the hard and fast rule that no religious test can be used for any office in government, federal, state or local, means that no official will have a formal, governmental role in religion, and no religion can insist on a role in any official’s duties.

Fourth, Amendment 1 closes the door to weasling around it: Congress is prohibited from even considering any legislation that might grant a new bureaucracy or a new power to get around the other bans on state and church marriage, plus the peoples’ rights in religion are enumerated.

Fifth: In 1801 the Baptists (!) in Danbury, Connecticut, grew concerned that Connecticut would act to infringe on their church services, or teachings, or right to exist. So they wrote to President Jefferson. Jefferson responded with an official declaration of government policy on what the First Amendment and Constitution mean in such cases. Jefferson carefully constructed the form of the device as well as the content with his Attorney General, Levi Lincoln, to be sure that it would state what the law was. This “letter” is the proclamation. It’s an official statement of the U.S. government, collected in the president’s official papers and not in his personal papers. Make no mistake: Jefferson’s letter to the Danbury Baptists was an official act, an official statement of the law of the United States. Jefferson intended it to assuage the Baptists in Danbury, to inform and warn the Connecticut legislatures, and to be a touchstone to which future Americans could turn for information. It was only fitting and proper for the Supreme Court to use the letter in this capacity as it has done several times.

Sixth: The phrase, “separation of church and state” dates back another 100 years and more, to the founding of Rhode Island. It is the religion/state facet of the idea of government by consent of the governed without interference from religious entities, expressed so well in the Mayflower Compact, in the first paragraphs of the Declaration of Independence, and carried through in the Constitution (see especially the Preamble, above).

No, the phrase “separation of church and state” never appears in the Constitution. The principles are part of the warp and woof, and history, of the document, however. The law is clear, was clear, and denying the Constitution says what it says won’t change it or make it go away.

Consequently, John Freshwater, an agent of the government, had no right, duty, privilege, instruction, nor any other legal foundation for his actions. Speaking as a Christian, I would say he has no Biblical foundation, either. Whether there is any other moral foundation, I doubt. (Paul’s the philosopher here; I’ll let him talk about other moral foundations.)

It’s sad to see a teacher licensed to teach who doesn’t understand the legal duties of the job, who acts insubordinately to place his employer in legal jeopardy, and who shirks the duties he signed an oath to perform. It’s sad to see a teacher so completely unfamiliar with the content of what he is supposed to teach.

Darwin saw the appearance of design in nature, too. He studied nature to see what causes that appearance of design, and discovered evolution. Evolution is one of the best documented, most thoroughly understood of the chief theories of science. Additionally, evolution is one of the outstanding ideas of western civilization, leading to scientific advances in medicine and agriculture that allow us to have a human population so large as this planet has now. Students need to understand the great ideas of western civilization, both scientifically and culturally.

I cannot think of a good religious reason to teach garbage to children and shock them with a device that warns it should never be used in contact with humans. By most international law, that would be deemed torture.

When I got my teaching license, torture was not one of the prescribed methods of teaching.

Reading assignments: The Constitution of the United States of America (try Findlaw.com, NARA.gov, there are lots of sites); Darwin, On the Origin of Species and chapter 5 (development of morality) of Descent of Man (both available online at several sources); The Boy Scout Law (here’s a good source:
404 Error Page ); Ohio’s science standards (hope this fits):
http://www.ode.state.oh.us/GD/Templ...picRelationID=334&ContentID=834&Content=32645

* I’m also a licensed, certified teacher — of history, government, and other social studies, if you’re curious.
 

Erebus

Well-Known Member
:confused:This is supposed to be satire isn't it?

Yes it is ;)

I like this one personally, "Despite the overwhelming number of Atheists in the general population and in powerful legislative positions, when they don't get their own way, Atheists whine that this is an anti-Atheistic country."
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
No we read things in context. If I am wrong, I will admit it but separation of church and state is not in our constituion.
Correct, the exact phrase "separation of Church and State" is not found in the US Constitution.
Lets read it shall we...
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...

This, along with the 14th Amendment, prohibits Federal, State, and Local governments from officially endorsing any religious concept, or prohibiting anyone from worshiping as they so choose.

It was one of the Founding Fathers and authors of the US Declaration of Independence who coined the phrase, in his famous, and has been pointed out, official letter to the Danbury Baptists.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof", thus building a wall of separation between Church & State.

Seems pretty cut and dry to me.:shrug:

Of course, this would be like someone arguing. "The Constitution does not say 'Freedom of Religion'!!"
No, it does not. But the meaning is pretty clear to those who can rationally use their minds.


Barry Lynn said firefighters cant put out fires at churches because it violates the separation of church and state.

Having read much of the Rev. Barry Lynns works, I doubt very much that he said this. Unless you can provide a reliable source for this, I will have to assume that you are once again being dishonest.
 

tomato1236

Ninja Master
Christians in America are mercilessly persecuted.
We're mercilessly disagreed with. It's not the same thing.

We are like Jews in Nazi Germany.
No we're not. Have you been stripped, starved or gassed lately?

They wont let us pray in the schools
Yes they will. Schools just won't mandate prayer. I used to bless my food at lunch time, and I never got put in a concentration camp for it.

they call us all kinds of names like bible thumper and holy roller
You are a bible thumper. I mean listen to yourself.

and now they want to make gospel preaching a hate crime but our God will get us the victory.
Victory over whom? Are you at war?

We have endured much for the gospel but take heart. Jesus said the world hated him and they will hate us too. The hour of his second coming is at hand and soon we will be with him in heaven. Our God is an awesome God. Amen.

Why do people say that. "Our God is an awesome God". I heard that as the title of a Christian Rock song in paid programming ad on TV for a set of Christian music CD's in hte 90's. There were a lot of people crying with their eyes closed an their hands in the air. What does "Awesome God" mean? The first time I heard it I assumed it was an attempt to market something Christian to a younger crowd, since old people are often behind the times with their "cool" words, and in the 80's it was awesome to say awesome. Also, "Our" God is ridiculous, because anyone who believes their Christian gospel is THE true one would believe that "their" God is the God of all mankind, not something you can take ownership of and set against the rest of the world. "Our God is an awesome God." That's sappy and creepy.
 

Feralbeest

Member
Sadly, Christianity, in all it's myriad of forms is the predominant religion in the United States. Because of this, Christians seem to feel that they should have a right to spread misinformation and outright lies about other religions due to their own ignorance and fear of all things non-Christian. Many Christians are under the delusion that the United States was founded as a Christian nation which is very much not the case. Our society has been conditioned by this propaganda, and because of this, the general reaction to someone who practices things like witchcraft or Satanism often are reacted to as if they are committing a crime by practicing their beliefs. When I was in school, the football games were opened with Christian prayer, and children were punished for wearing clothing that depicted what the administration saw as "Satanic" themes. Christianity has held sway in this country for far too long, and I am quite frankly happy to see them get a little taste of their own medicine once in a while! Christians in the Americas and elsewhere have destryed cultures, and participated in wholesale genocide! Don't come crying to the rest of us about being "persecuted"! Look at the history of Christianity, and then be happy your religion isn't being persecuted as horribly as it has persecuted others!!!!
 

Beyond Humanity

New Member
Sadly, Christianity, in all it's myriad of forms is the predominant religion in the United States. Because of this, Christians seem to feel that they should have a right to spread misinformation and outright lies about other religions due to their own ignorance and fear of all things non-Christian. Many Christians are under the delusion that the United States was founded as a Christian nation which is very much not the case. Our society has been conditioned by this propaganda, and because of this, the general reaction to someone who practices things like witchcraft or Satanism often are reacted to as if they are committing a crime by practicing their beliefs. When I was in school, the football games were opened with Christian prayer, and children were punished for wearing clothing that depicted what the administration saw as "Satanic" themes. Christianity has held sway in this country for far too long, and I am quite frankly happy to see them get a little taste of their own medicine once in a while! Christians in the Americas and elsewhere have destryed cultures, and participated in wholesale genocide! Don't come crying to the rest of us about being "persecuted"! Look at the history of Christianity, and then be happy your religion isn't being persecuted as horribly as it has persecuted others!!!!

Lol are you done yet?
 

T-Dawg

Self-appointed Lunatic
Lol are you done yet?

Lol, is that the best response you can come up with? Are you TRYING to give me fodder to preach with? :D

By the way, I notice that your account was created very shortly (about an hour) after the OP's last activity, and you seem to have very similar mannerisms to him. Is this a coincidence, or are you him attempting to circumvent the ban?
 
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