Christians: Is Sola Scriptura Biblical?

[shunyadragon]

Jesus was Jewish, not Catholic. He didn't start a denomination, he started the true church which is based on the truth that he is God's Son. So the true church isn't Catholic or Orthodox or Methodist or Presbyterian or whatever. It's all true believers in Jesus, no matter where they happen to gather.

I accept ecumenism in principle, but it remains an idealistic unrealistic possibility. When you have up to half of the Christians of the world believing absolutely in Sola Xcriptura and/or a literal interpretation of the Bible, and the other half accepting various levels of interpretation to shoehorn in science and the present knowledge of Biblical history neither side will be willing to give ground. Though not absolute 'Sola Scriptura and a literal interpretation of scripture (given some room for interpretation where there are conflicts in the scriptures, including the possibility of duel interpretation of literal with allegory and symbolic meaning.) is more than justified by the apparent beliefs of the authors and early church fathers of the NT.

The Roman Church split with Orthodox together are the earliest churches Catholic means universal, the foundation claim of the RCC, and there is hope of giving in to the Protestant denominations, though a compatable relationship exists to an extent with the Orthodox Churches..

 

[shunyadragon]

Again, it means on how one uses "inerrant". And as far as "literal history" is concerned, that also relates to the problem of defining "inerrancy". For example, the counts in Numbers simply don't match, so does that break the concept of "inerrancy", yes or no? Same is true of the women visiting Jesus' tomb as no two Gospel accounts exactly match. Is that "literal history" as well or not?

Again, "inerrancy" must be defined first and then one can move on.

I already stated that apparent contradictions here and there in the scriptures allow for room of interpretation by those who believe in 'Sola Scriptura' and the belief in a literal interpretation, but nonetheless with exceptions they ALL believe in a relatively literal Pentateuch and New Testament.

There has never been an issue here of 'complete or absolute' literal belief in the text in the history of Christianity.

 

[shunyadragon]

Again, it means on how one uses "inerrant". And as far as "literal history" is concerned, that also relates to the problem of defining "inerrancy". For example, the counts in Numbers simply don't match, so does that break the concept of "inerrancy", yes or no? Same is true of the women visiting Jesus' tomb as no two Gospel accounts exactly match. Is that "literal history" as well or not?

Again, "inerrancy" must be defined first and then one can move on.

I believe it is relatively well defined and established in history, and described in my previous post. For contemporary view of inerrancy there are extensive writings that define this such as:

Biblical inerrancy - Wikipedia

Arguments in favour of inerrancy:
Norman Geisler and William Nix (1986) say that scriptural inerrancy is established by a number of observations and processes, which include:[11]

• The historical accuracy of the Bible
• The Bible's claims of its own inerrancy
• Church history and tradition
• One's individual experience with God

Daniel B. Wallace, Professor of New Testament at Dallas Theological Seminary, divides the various evidences into two approaches: deductive and inductive approaches.[31]

Many of these arguments, of course, fail on close examination, but nonetheless the arguments for inerrancy are well defined by the above referenced Theologians and believed by 40-50% Christian worldwide. Only in Europe do these beliefs remain the minority/.

More detailed references may be provided.

 

[metis]

The Roman Church split with Orthodox together are the earliest churches Catholic means universal, the foundation claim of the RCC, and there is hope of giving in to the Protestant denominations, though a compatable relationship exists to an extent with the Orthodox Churches..

There's no condemnation of Protestants within today's Catholic Church. Even though I grew up in a Protestant church, I've been attending mass now for over 55 years and never once have I heard a priest or a deacon or a bishop or a pope badmouth Protestants.

 

[metis]

There has never been an issue here of 'complete or absolute' literal belief in the text in the history of Christianity.

Well, that's up until the last couple of hundred years whereas many fundamentalist Protestants and the JW's would soundly disagree with you as they generally say that the original texts were completely inerrant. Of course, no one has them, so their point is moot, but just don't tell them that, OK?.

My point is that the issue of "inerrancy" has to be first defined and they applied.

 

[shunyadragon]

There's no condemnation of Protestants within today's Catholic Church. Even though I grew up in a Protestant church, I've been attending mass now for over 55 years and never once have I heard a priest or a deacon or a bishop or a pope badmouth Protestants.

Neither did I raised in the Roman Church and that DOES NOT address the subject of my posts. You do not need to bad mouth anyone to remain stanchly separate ;One and only 'Catholic (Universal) One True Church.'

Please respond to my posts specifically.

As far as ecumenism the Roman Church believes this can take place only within the Roman Church/ Vatican II was considered by many as a new open and inclusive Church for Christianity, but no it was specifically the reaffirmation of the foundation beliefs of the Roman Church in Vatican I, and the rewrite of the Official Catechism as the one and only true Catechism negating others like the Dutch Catechism.

Library : Decree on Ecumenism (Unitatis Redintegratio)

When such actions are undertaken prudently and patiently by the Catholic faithful, with the attentive guidance of their bishops, they promote justice and truth, concord and collaboration, as well as the spirit of brotherly love and unity. This is the way that, when the obstacles to perfect ecclesiastical communion have been gradually overcome, all Christians will at last, in a common celebration of the Eucharist, be gathered into the one and only Church in that unity which Christ bestowed on His Church from the beginning. We believe that this unity subsists in the Catholic Church as something she can never lose, and we hope that it will continue to increase until the end of time.

In other words in terms of their hopes of ecumenism is that those that are out of the fold of the 'One True Church' will convert and join the faithful.

More to follow . . .

 

[shunyadragon]

The problem with the question 'Is Sola Scriptura Biblical?' is that it is a subjective question, Some, many, believe in it others do not. There are citations that support it, but it remains an interpretation, which lacks agreement, and yes divides Christianity beginning with Martin Luther's objections to the doctrines of the Roman Church, along with disagreements as to whether the Bible is literal (with exceptions to resolve conflicts) or not.,

 

[metis]

Please respond to my posts specifically.

I thought I did, so I'll just stop here.

 

[shunyadragon]

I thought I did, so I'll just stop here.

No you did not. I was specific that your post did nothing of the sort. I responded with more posts and references and you failed to respond. References were provided that inerrancy is defined with variations, It is only a matter of degree, which each, like JW, defines their own version,

OK, just stop here and fail to respond to post #266

 

[metis]

OK, just stop here and fail to respond to post #266

Yes, that the official teaching, which I do sharply question, btw, but I was not alluding to that in #264-5.

 

[Dogknox20]

Jesus was Jewish, not Catholic. He didn't start a denomination, he started the true church which is based on the truth that he is God's Son. So the true church isn't Catholic or Orthodox or Methodist or Presbyterian or whatever. It's all true believers in Jesus, no matter where they happen to gather.

.
Hello, Wildswanderer I hope all is well... What you believe cannot be proven by history fact is; the opposite is true!

Ignatius 107 A.D.
“You must continue to do nothing apart from the bishop. Obey priests as apostles of Jesus Christ. Similarly, all should respect the deacons as they would respect Jesus Christ, just as they respect the bishop as representing the Father and the priests as the council of God and the college of the apostles. Apart from these there in nothing that can be called a church.” 107 A.D

Ignatius of Antioch
“Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church” (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

Wildswanderer did you see it? just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church” A.D. 110

The Martyrdom of Polycarp
“And of the elect, he was one indeed, the wonderful martyr Polycarp, who in our days was an apostolic and prophetic teacher, bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna. For every word which came forth from his mouth was fulfilled and will be fulfilled” (Martyrdom of Polycarp 16:2 [A.D. 155]).

Jusus built One Church to be established "Forever"! Bulit on Rock not on Sand! ALL....

Wildswanderer all other churches in the world are started by men; Men who reject the words of Jesus as a lie! The True Church... The Only Church Jesus established 2000 years ago is the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church!
1) One because God is One.
2) Holy because God is Holy his Body is Holy!
3) Catholic because God is everywhere Universal: Catholic!
4) Apostolic because only the Catholic Church has roots going back to the Apostles!
Only the Catholic Church has these four marks only the Catholic Church is the Body of Jesus!
Eph 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her Jesus died for the Catholic Church! His Church is Holy! One Church!

 

[Wildswanderer]

.
Hello, Wildswanderer I hope all is well... What you believe cannot be proven by history fact is; the opposite is true!

Ignatius 107 A.D.
“You must continue to do nothing apart from the bishop. Obey priests as apostles of Jesus Christ. Similarly, all should respect the deacons as they would respect Jesus Christ, just as they respect the bishop as representing the Father and the priests as the council of God and the college of the apostles. Apart from these there in nothing that can be called a church.” 107 A.D

Ignatius of Antioch
“Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church” (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).

Wildswanderer did you see it? just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church” A.D. 110

The Martyrdom of Polycarp
“And of the elect, he was one indeed, the wonderful martyr Polycarp, who in our days was an apostolic and prophetic teacher, bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna. For every word which came forth from his mouth was fulfilled and will be fulfilled” (Martyrdom of Polycarp 16:2 [A.D. 155]).

Jusus built One Church to be established "Forever"! Bulit on Rock not on Sand! ALL....

Wildswanderer all other churches in the world are started by men; Men who reject the words of Jesus as a lie! The True Church... The Only Church Jesus established 2000 years ago is the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church!
1) One because God is One.
2) Holy because God is Holy his Body is Holy!
3) Catholic because God is everywhere Universal: Catholic!
4) Apostolic because only the Catholic Church has roots going back to the Apostles!
Only the Catholic Church has these four marks only the Catholic Church is the Body of Jesus!
Eph 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.

Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her Jesus died for the Catholic Church! His Church is Holy! One Church!

The Catholic church was originally just the universal church. It could just as well be said that where Christ is there is the only church, which is all real believers.
The foundation of the church is the confession that Jesus is God's Son. All true believers confess this.

 

[Dogknox20]

The Catholic church was originally just the universal church. It could just as well be said that where Christ is there is the only church, which is all real believers.
The foundation of the church is the confession that Jesus is God's Son. All true believers confess this.

.
Real believers?
Jesus built on Rock this means; what Jesus built 2000 years ago still stands today!

I point out: Believers believe the scriptures!
Jesus built on Rock not on sand! This means Jesus is NOT a fool; it means Jesus is still to this very day, with the ONLY Church he established! All other churches were built by men on Sand! All of these man-made churches MUST reject the words of God as a lie! Otherwise, they would not be needed; all would be Catholics!
Matthew 28:20
Teach them to do everything I have commanded you. “And remember that I am always with you until the end of time.”
Wildswanderer Question do you believe Matthew 28:20?

Church has ministers in charge
Church has congregation in charge

Church needs to be formed a new Re-Formed!
Church never failed

Church is a building
Church is the congregation

Man is justified by Works and Faith
Man is justified by Faith Alone

Baptism saves
Baptism is only symbolic

This bread is My Body
This bread symbolically, is my body

Church is the foundation and pillar of truth
Church is not the foundation of truth

Infant Baptism
No infants baptized

Music in Church
No music in Church

Wine
Grape juice

Jesus is God
Jesus is Not God

Scriptures Alone are all that is needed to find truth
An authority of scripture is needed for truth

Mary is the mother of God
Mary is Not the mother of God

Sacraments are biblical
Sacraments are not biblical

Personal relationship in Jesus is Not biblical!
Personal relationship in Jesus is biblical!

Sinners Prayer saves
Sinners' prayer is Not biblical

Confess sins to one another
Confess sins to God

Scriptures Alone are biblical
Scriptures Alone are Not biblical

Prayer for the dead
No praying for the dead

Priests
Ministers

No woman Pastors
Woman allowed as Pastor

Only “WE” my church is the true church
Any church is as good as the next

There is No hell
There is an eternal hell

Soul sleep
Absent from the body present with God

The rapture is biblical
The rapture is Not biblical

Church has authority to teach!
Church has No authority

Suffering is the result of sin

Satan is the brother of Jesus

Jesus was killed on a post not a cross

Can't lose salvation
Can lose salvation

Predestined for hell
Not predestined

Faith Alone saves
Faith PLUS Love saves

Communion with God in the bread
Bread is only symbolic flesh of Jesus

Church failed need to be Re-Formed
Church built on Rock

Church can teach
Only scriptures teach

Faith ALONE is biblical
Faith ALONE is not biblical

Scriptures ALONE is biblical
Scriptures ALONE are NOT biblical

Church is invisible
Church is visible
Church is both

Peter was Chief Apostle
Peter was NOT chief Apostle

Early Church Fathers have no voice
Early Church Fathers teach with authority

No footnotes in the bible
Footnotes are useful

Woman are saved by childbirth!
Only faith saves!

Put on the whole armor of God
Can't put on the Armor with ONLY faith, requires Love and Hope!
etc

 

[Wildswanderer]

.
Real believers?
Jesus built on Rock this means; what Jesus built 2000 years ago still stands today!

I point out: Believers believe the scriptures!
Jesus built on Rock not on sand! This means Jesus is NOT a fool; it means Jesus is still to this very day, with the ONLY Church he established! All other churches were built by men on Sand! All of these man-made churches MUST reject the words of God as a lie! Otherwise, they would not be needed; all would be Catholics!
Matthew 28:20
Teach them to do everything I have commanded you. “And remember that I am always with you until the end of time.”
Wildswanderer Question do you believe Matthew 28:20?

Church has ministers in charge
Church has congregation in charge

Church needs to be formed a new Re-Formed!
Church never failed

Church is a building
Church is the congregation

Man is justified by Works and Faith
Man is justified by Faith Alone

Baptism saves
Baptism is only symbolic

This bread is My Body
This bread symbolically, is my body

Church is the foundation and pillar of truth
Church is not the foundation of truth

Infant Baptism
No infants baptized

Music in Church
No music in Church

Wine
Grape juice

Jesus is God
Jesus is Not God

Scriptures Alone are all that is needed to find truth
An authority of scripture is needed for truth

Mary is the mother of God
Mary is Not the mother of God

Sacraments are biblical
Sacraments are not biblical

Personal relationship in Jesus is Not biblical!
Personal relationship in Jesus is biblical!

Sinners Prayer saves
Sinners' prayer is Not biblical

Confess sins to one another
Confess sins to God

Scriptures Alone are biblical
Scriptures Alone are Not biblical

Prayer for the dead
No praying for the dead

Priests
Ministers

No woman Pastors
Woman allowed as Pastor

Only “WE” my church is the true church
Any church is as good as the next

There is No hell
There is an eternal hell

Soul sleep
Absent from the body present with God

The rapture is biblical
The rapture is Not biblical

Church has authority to teach!
Church has No authority

Suffering is the result of sin

Satan is the brother of Jesus

Jesus was killed on a post not a cross

Can't lose salvation
Can lose salvation

Predestined for hell
Not predestined

Faith Alone saves
Faith PLUS Love saves

Communion with God in the bread
Bread is only symbolic flesh of Jesus

Church failed need to be Re-Formed
Church built on Rock

Church can teach
Only scriptures teach

Faith ALONE is biblical
Faith ALONE is not biblical

Scriptures ALONE is biblical
Scriptures ALONE are NOT biblical

Church is invisible
Church is visible
Church is both

Peter was Chief Apostle
Peter was NOT chief Apostle

Early Church Fathers have no voice
Early Church Fathers teach with authority

No footnotes in the bible
Footnotes are useful

Woman are saved by childbirth!
Only faith saves!

Put on the whole armor of God
Can't put on the Armor with ONLY faith, requires Love and Hope!
etc

This a very confusing post. Of course I believe that God is with us to the end.

 

[shunyadragon]

Yes, that the official teaching, which I do sharply question, btw, but I was not alluding to that in #264-5.

The problem is this is the foundation belief of the Roman Church since the beginning(?), and the reason it considers itself 'Catholic.'

 

[shunyadragon]

This a very confusing post. Of course I believe that God is with us to the end.

ALL the different variable conflicting religions various denomination, divisions, sects and other variations of belief systems where the believers believe in their version of the scriptures. .

 

[metis]

The problem is this is the foundation belief of the Roman Church since the beginning(?), and the reason it considers itself 'Catholic.'

Well, Jesus quite clearly created one Church through himself and his Apostles, so it is based on sound reasoning. However, the Church considers non-Catholic Christians to be brothers & sisters in Christ.

And btw, the "Roman Church" is only one branch of the Catholic Church: What are the three branches of the Catholic Church? (diocesiscoatza.org)

 

[wellwisher]

Christians:

Is Sola Scriptura biblical?

Or is it a tradition?

When Jesus died he left behind the promise of the Holy Spirit who was the Spirit of Truth.

The practical problem was is, relative to Sola Scriptura, is the Old and New Testament both stop short of discussing the works of the Spirit of Truth, promised by Jesus in about 25AD. Since that promise, 2000 years have past and the full works of the Spirit are not compiled in either the Old or New Testament. There is truth not yet compile as sola scriptura.

The analogy would be the New Testament was not written until centuries after Jesus. Up to that point, Sola Scriptura would only apply to the Old Testament, simply because the New Testament was not yet compiled for 200 years. The physical writings of the New Testament, by occurring several hundred years after the promise, would actually be connected to the workings of the Spirit. The New Testament became Sola Scriptura about 200AD, but the act of compiling will not become Sola Scriptura to the workings of the Spirit, until the last 2000 years is compiled and published as the Third Testament to the spirit. The Old Testament is to the works of the Father, the New Testament is to the works of the Son, while the Third Testament, which is not yet with us, is for the works of the Spirit.

What this all means is we need to compile the workings of the spirit over the last 2000 years; third Testament, so it too becomes Sola Scriptura for the future; Sola Scriptura all the way from 25AD, with examples all the way to the present. 2000 years is enough time to be objective to the twists of fate. I doubt anyone in 30AD saw Christianity merging with Rome as a partner. But this would occur in the 4th century AD. and change the ancient world, while the Catholic Church continuing all the way to the present. World empires change the world. The world got better in many ways; spirit of truth.

The Catholic Church for example, has over 10,000 Saints in 1500 years. People such as these would be part of the workings of the spirit. This number does not include all the Denominational saints, and the Judeo-Christian Scientists which had a major impact on truth in nature; Newton and Einstein.

The Third Testament still needs to be compiled as a testament to the Spirit of Truth for Sola Scriptura. Until it is complied and published as the third part of a Biblical Trinity, Sola Scriptura has a gap with the present; living spirit. The concept of Sola Scriptura remains stuck at the Old and New Testament.

The Dogma of the Assumption of the Virgin Mary; body and all, in the 1950's, appears to be a symbol of workings of the spirit, The Virgin assumption is purity/ truth in both material and spiritual reality. Science seeks the truth of Mother Nature, while the Saints dealt with truth in cultural reality. Luckily the Catholic Church has good record keeping skills it learned from Rome. The modern era is also well documented. The Spirit has yet to move the needed people to start the limited compilation that best expresses the Spirit. I am not a historian.

 

[Wildswanderer]

ALL the different variable conflicting religions various denomination, divisions, sects and other variations of belief systems where the believers believe in their version of the scriptures. .

The main thing, as I already expressed, is Jesus as the Son of God. A list of non essential doctrines is what I saw.

 

[Dogknox20]

This a very confusing post. Of course I believe that God is with us to the end.

.
Your words from post # 273 (above)
The Catholic church was originally just the universal church. It could just as well be said that where Christ is there is the only church, which is all real believers.
The foundation of the church is the confession that Jesus is God's Son. All true believers confess this.

Wildswanderer The point of my post that you found confusing is the question... Who are "True Believers?" I was pointing out to you; There is a vast plethora of different beliefs!
Thousands of man-made protesting churches all claiming to have the truth but not two of these thousands believe the same thing!
All of these man-made churches reject the scriptures to reject the true Church Jesus established on Rock!
Question: Did Jesus build on Rock or on Sand!?!
Question: Is Jesus a fool?!
Question: Did Jesus establish One Church or thousands?!
Question: Is Jesus Always With his Holy Church? Or Did Satan somehow overpower Jesus and Satan Took the Body of Jesus from Jesus!?
Question: Does God need man to come to his rescue and re-Form the Body of Jesus because Jesus could not hold onto his own body!?
Question: Did the Church Jesus establish have Bishops/Elders with Authority to Command men and to Teach all nations!?
Question: Did Jesus say, "All who reject his Church, all who refuse to listen to his Church are thus rejecting God"!
Question: Does Baptism make disciples?
Etc
etc

Wildswanderer Many questions that need to be answered to find out who are the "True Believers"!
I also point out "All True Believers believe Jesus is God"! Christians have always believed Jesus is God right from the Apostles up to today 2000 years after Jesus!