standing_alone
Well-Known Member
This is a thread that Aqualung requested me to make for her.
Why was Jesus referred to as "the Word," as in John 1?
Why was Jesus referred to as "the Word," as in John 1?
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Christians: Jesus as "The Word"
- Thread starter standing_alone
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standing_alone
Well-Known Member
Okay, another question from Aqualung:
But was Jesus Christ himself a word?
But was Jesus Christ himself a word?
No*s
Captain Obvious
standing_alone said:
Because John used a term from ancient philosophy, which he subsequently gave a Christian spin in order to express a Christian term. The Stoics, for instance, considered the Logos to be the divine principle of the Eternal Mind that made itself known in our various logoi. Likewise, Platonism had a sense of the Reason of the Creator (not in the Judeo-Christian sense of ex nihilo). Once again, it connected with our reason.
In John's prologue, the eternal Logos functions as the revelation of God. He comes to men to reveal God and divinize them (10.35). He is one with the Father (10.30,38). He is so much one with God, that He is what God is (1.1). He functions as the revelation of God, so that he who sees the Word sees God, to know the Word is to know God (Jn 14.6-7), and it is only by knowing the Word/Mind/Revelation (all meanings of logos) of God that we can know the Father at all. Ultimately, this means that the Logos must be glorified as God by those who know Him (5.23). All of this works out so that believers may be one with God in a way similar to how the Son is one with God (this, obviously, connotes more than forgiveness of sins).
Hopefully that helps some
.
standing_alone
Well-Known Member
Are you in contact with Aqualung? That girl needs to come here herself and visit!
Uh huh. I know she does. Hopefully this is just her first step on a journey back to RF! :shout
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
What an awesome question, and one I was thinking about asking, but in a different way. They say that "Great minds think alike" AL... but somehow, my mind happened to jump up a notch or six to think like yours!
However, I think this brings to light a possible misconception. We often look to the Bible as "The Word of God". But is it? Perhaps all of those scriptures referring to the Word of God are referring NOT to scripture, but to Jesus. This really makes a lot of sense to me, especially since the scriptures never claim to be the "Word of God".
However, I think this brings to light a possible misconception. We often look to the Bible as "The Word of God". But is it? Perhaps all of those scriptures referring to the Word of God are referring NOT to scripture, but to Jesus. This really makes a lot of sense to me, especially since the scriptures never claim to be the "Word of God".
standing_alone
Well-Known Member
I know I'm not a Christian and shouldn't be posting, but this struck me as really interesting and I kind of liked the idea. So, is what you're saying, NetDoc, is that the "Word of God" is not the actually scripture written in the Bible, but the actual words Jesus spoke?
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Not sure... just thought I would throw that bomb out there and see if she pops! Again, I can't think of ANYWHERE that the scriptures claim to be infallible OR the Word of God. However, they clearly identify Jesus as such.
FWIW, I think that the Spirit causes the Word of God to live in our hearts as well. I can back that up with scripture, but not the concept of scriptures being the Word of God.
FWIW, I think that the Spirit causes the Word of God to live in our hearts as well. I can back that up with scripture, but not the concept of scriptures being the Word of God.
No*s
Captain Obvious
A good introduction to traditional Christian theology on Jesus as Word may be found in On the Incarnation of the Word by St. Athanasios. It'll explain some of the relation between the Heavenly Word and the earthly Word. It's not too long, but it is a lengthy read (and a very important historical piece of theology).
"...no man knows the Son, but the Father; neither knows any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him."
The Father leads us to Jesus, and Jesus reveals the Father. God (the Father) was "...in Christ [the son], reconciling the world unto Himself..."; that is, the fullness of God was in the [body] of the son. It seems that the REAL question should be: was the flesh God[?]!!!
Phnxman
The Father leads us to Jesus, and Jesus reveals the Father. God (the Father) was "...in Christ [the son], reconciling the world unto Himself..."; that is, the fullness of God was in the [body] of the son. It seems that the REAL question should be: was the flesh God[?]!!!
Phnxman
Scott1
Well-Known Member
Thanks Kenneth.... I hate to admit that this was the first time I have read this.No*s said:
It will take me four or five more times to understand it, but it's a start!
It would be great if we could pick an important work like this or one like it from another early Christian and do a bit of a group study.... I wonder if anyone would actually participate??? I'd love to have some non-catholic members join in.
Thanks again for posting the link... what a great site!
Scott
standing_alone,
The Bible does not answer that question directly, but it does give information that we can reason on.
First, Jesus was the very first of all God's creations, Colossians 1:15, Revelation 3:14.
Then, the Scriptures at Proverbs 8:22-31, most scholars take to be speaking of Jesus, especially consider verse 30, where it says he was the master worker. A master worker is like a Forman, who tells the workmen what the boss wants done.
Think about this; God did not form all the things in existence, He created the material, but He allowed Jesus and the Angels to form much of creation. We can understand this by what is said at Psalms 33:6,9. These Scriptures do not mean that God just formed all things by His will. It means that He said what He wanted done and Jesus and the Angels worked to do what God wanted done, Psalms 103:20,21. Jesus,being the Master Worker would tell God's word to the Angels.
Another reason for being called the Word is, Jesus was sent to the earth to give God's word to mankind, John 1:1,2,14. It was Jesus that God said in Genesis 1:26-28 Let US make man in OUR image. Remember, the Bible tells us that all things were made FOR Jesus, and THROUGH Jesus, John 1:3, Colossians 1:15,16, 1Corinthians 8:6, Hebrews 1:2.
Jesus was not only the Word of God in the first century, but Jesus will shortly be the Word that Judges the world, letting the Angels know who to destroy, Matthew 25:31-46. Notice the place the Word holds in God's purpose for this world, Revelation 19:11-21. Notice verse 13, where Jesus is called the Word, as he judges the World, Acts 17:31.
Jesus proves to be the Word of God in many ways!!!
I apologize in advance that these thoughts are not organized, but I only had a couple of minutes to post and did not have time to organize them.
Standing_alone asked : "Why was Jesus referred to as "the Word," as in John 1? (opening post)
Scuba Pete said “Perhaps all of those scriptures referring to the Word of God are referring NOT to scripture, but to Jesus.” (post #9)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was (a) God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. John 1:1-2
Such references often refer to the savior by the name “the word”. John seems to use this ancient name for the redeemer, more often than other witnesses. “…And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (Rev 19:13). It is in this context that Jesus was often referred to as “the word” of God in early texts.
The appellation "the word" is an appellation that was frequently used in much of Early Judeo-Christian literature, especially when referring to Jesus in his pre-creation and pre-carnation roles as he was with the Father from the beginning of Creating this world. The Epistle of Barnabas refers to this point when it says “For the Scripture speaks about us when he says to the Son: “Let us make man according to our image and likeness, and let them rule over the beasts of the earth and the birds of the air and the fish of the sea.” And when he saw that our creation was good, the Lord said: “Increase ad multiply and fill the earth.” These things he said to the Son.” (Barnabas 6:12) In the context of ancient pre-mortality existence, when describing Adam, God refers to Jesus as “the word” when he says, (speaking of Adam), “… And (as my) image he knows the word like (no) other.... (c.f. 2nd Enoch 30:10-17)
However, other prophets in other sacred witnesses often use the same name in reference to the redeemer. When the Prophet Baruch prays "O hear me, you who created the earth, the one who fixed the firmament by the word…." (Baruch 2 21:4-5) he is referring to the early description of Jesus’ in his role as Creator under the direction of God the Father, in this ancient context. The early coordination of God the Father and the son are seen in early descriptions of their roles in such texts as Jewish Haggadah “The superiority of man to the other creatures is apparent in the very manner of his creation, altogether different from theirs. He is the only one who was created by the hand of God. The rest sprang from the Word of God." (The Haggadah (Man and the world)
Multiple sacred witnesses speak of Jesus in this context as creator for God. For example, Hebrews when it describes that “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds ( Heb 1:1-2 )
In reference to the ancient Judeo-Christian traditions regarding the war in heaven, a Coptic psalm spoke of “the word” as the one who subdues the rebellious angels : "Now as they were warring with each other, they made bold to attack the land of Light, considering themselves capable of conquering it….. But there was a host of angels in the Land of Light which possessed the power to issue forth and overcome the enemy of the Father, whom it pleased that through the Word that he would send, he should subdue the rebels who desired to raise themselves above what was more exalted than they". Coptic Psalm 223 (allberry 9-11);
The Rechabite literature also spoke of the incarnation of the redeemer as "the word" : “To us the holy angels of God announce (both) the incarnation of the Word of God, who (is) from the holy virgin…” History of the Rechabites 12:9a
Occassionally the use of this name for the redeemer goes unnoticed in the early sacred texts : for example, “ For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass….. 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word by which the gospel is preached unto you." 1 Pet 1:24-25. In this case, “the word” does not seem to refer to the gospel message, but the source which is preaching the gospel. I think this is another use of "the word" as an appellation for the redeemer.
The decensus literature also contains this use of “the word” as a name for Jesus. For example, when Bartholomew tells us that "But when the Devil perceived that the Word of the Father had come down upon the earth, he said: "Do not fear, Hades; we will make fast the gates and make strong our bars….” He is clearing referring to Jesus since it references one who “was hanged upon the cross for your sake and for the sake of your children." And when he heard that, he groaned and said: "So you were pleased to do, O Lord. " The Gospel of Bartholomew ;
Again, it is John who tells us that “… the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:14. As in other examples, the message is not "made flesh" but it is the pre-existing redeemer that is "made flesh".
Like John, the Judeo-Christian Enochian literature uses this appellation a lot. "… in the last generation, there will be another Melkisedek, the first of the 12 priests. And the last will be the head of all, a great archpriest, the Word and Power of god, who will perform miracles, greater and more glorious than all the previous ones." 2nd Enoch 71:33-34
Sometimes one cannot tell if the reference is an appellation referring to Jesus, or to the message itself. For example, when John says “Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. " It could be a reference to something John heard Jesus (the word) said, or the message (the word) that Jesus said. Acts 11:16
Clear
ειτζσεσεω
P.S. In the early Christian textual witness, Life of Adam and Eve (vita), when the promise is made to Adam that he would be redeemed, Adam is pleading to God "Cast me not from your presence, whom you formed from the clay of the earth", Adam relates "And behold, your word came to me and the Lord said to me, ‘Because your days are numbered, you have been made to cherish knowledge; ...” (A&E Vita) 27:2-3.
There are numerous examples of where the appellation "the word" applies to the redeemer in his various roles at various times in his existence.
Standing_alone asked : "Why was Jesus referred to as "the Word," as in John 1? (opening post)
Scuba Pete said “Perhaps all of those scriptures referring to the Word of God are referring NOT to scripture, but to Jesus.” (post #9)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was (a) God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. John 1:1-2
Such references often refer to the savior by the name “the word”. John seems to use this ancient name for the redeemer, more often than other witnesses. “…And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. (Rev 19:13). It is in this context that Jesus was often referred to as “the word” of God in early texts.
The appellation "the word" is an appellation that was frequently used in much of Early Judeo-Christian literature, especially when referring to Jesus in his pre-creation and pre-carnation roles as he was with the Father from the beginning of Creating this world. The Epistle of Barnabas refers to this point when it says “For the Scripture speaks about us when he says to the Son: “Let us make man according to our image and likeness, and let them rule over the beasts of the earth and the birds of the air and the fish of the sea.” And when he saw that our creation was good, the Lord said: “Increase ad multiply and fill the earth.” These things he said to the Son.” (Barnabas 6:12) In the context of ancient pre-mortality existence, when describing Adam, God refers to Jesus as “the word” when he says, (speaking of Adam), “… And (as my) image he knows the word like (no) other.... (c.f. 2nd Enoch 30:10-17)
However, other prophets in other sacred witnesses often use the same name in reference to the redeemer. When the Prophet Baruch prays "O hear me, you who created the earth, the one who fixed the firmament by the word…." (Baruch 2 21:4-5) he is referring to the early description of Jesus’ in his role as Creator under the direction of God the Father, in this ancient context. The early coordination of God the Father and the son are seen in early descriptions of their roles in such texts as Jewish Haggadah “The superiority of man to the other creatures is apparent in the very manner of his creation, altogether different from theirs. He is the only one who was created by the hand of God. The rest sprang from the Word of God." (The Haggadah (Man and the world)
Multiple sacred witnesses speak of Jesus in this context as creator for God. For example, Hebrews when it describes that “God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds ( Heb 1:1-2 )
In reference to the ancient Judeo-Christian traditions regarding the war in heaven, a Coptic psalm spoke of “the word” as the one who subdues the rebellious angels : "Now as they were warring with each other, they made bold to attack the land of Light, considering themselves capable of conquering it….. But there was a host of angels in the Land of Light which possessed the power to issue forth and overcome the enemy of the Father, whom it pleased that through the Word that he would send, he should subdue the rebels who desired to raise themselves above what was more exalted than they". Coptic Psalm 223 (allberry 9-11);
The Rechabite literature also spoke of the incarnation of the redeemer as "the word" : “To us the holy angels of God announce (both) the incarnation of the Word of God, who (is) from the holy virgin…” History of the Rechabites 12:9a
Occassionally the use of this name for the redeemer goes unnoticed in the early sacred texts : for example, “ For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass….. 25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word by which the gospel is preached unto you." 1 Pet 1:24-25. In this case, “the word” does not seem to refer to the gospel message, but the source which is preaching the gospel. I think this is another use of "the word" as an appellation for the redeemer.
The decensus literature also contains this use of “the word” as a name for Jesus. For example, when Bartholomew tells us that "But when the Devil perceived that the Word of the Father had come down upon the earth, he said: "Do not fear, Hades; we will make fast the gates and make strong our bars….” He is clearing referring to Jesus since it references one who “was hanged upon the cross for your sake and for the sake of your children." And when he heard that, he groaned and said: "So you were pleased to do, O Lord. " The Gospel of Bartholomew ;
Again, it is John who tells us that “… the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:14. As in other examples, the message is not "made flesh" but it is the pre-existing redeemer that is "made flesh".
Like John, the Judeo-Christian Enochian literature uses this appellation a lot. "… in the last generation, there will be another Melkisedek, the first of the 12 priests. And the last will be the head of all, a great archpriest, the Word and Power of god, who will perform miracles, greater and more glorious than all the previous ones." 2nd Enoch 71:33-34
Sometimes one cannot tell if the reference is an appellation referring to Jesus, or to the message itself. For example, when John says “Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost. " It could be a reference to something John heard Jesus (the word) said, or the message (the word) that Jesus said. Acts 11:16
Clear
ειτζσεσεω
P.S. In the early Christian textual witness, Life of Adam and Eve (vita), when the promise is made to Adam that he would be redeemed, Adam is pleading to God "Cast me not from your presence, whom you formed from the clay of the earth", Adam relates "And behold, your word came to me and the Lord said to me, ‘Because your days are numbered, you have been made to cherish knowledge; ...” (A&E Vita) 27:2-3.
There are numerous examples of where the appellation "the word" applies to the redeemer in his various roles at various times in his existence.
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