Christians: Kill family who mentions other beliefs to you?

[Midnight Pete]

They get what they gave, that's why we call it justice.

Sometimes we demand Old Testament justice. We're not perfect.

 

[Jeremiah]

No, it is an unemotional one. Murder is unlawful killing. If the highest law commands it, it cannot be murder.

Do you consider the death penalty murder?


It is not a question of morality, but of definition. The highest law supercedes all other law, and if the highest law sanctions or commands a death, it is not murder(unlawful killing).


I know that as well


I've never said that I believe God will command killing... I believe quite the opposite. In truth, He has already specifically commanded me to abstain from violence.

"No, it is an unemotional one. Murder is unlawful killing. If the highest law commands it, it cannot be murder."

You can't know what is moral and what is not without emotions. That is why you are so morally confused. Morality requires compassion and wisdom. If you are just blindly following some supposed "higher" law unemotionally then you are about as far as way from being in the moral right as you can get.

"Do you consider the death penalty murder?"

Yes, it is. It compounds the problem, it says, "Let's solve murder with murder." The idea that killing each other will solve the problem of killing each other is just stupid.


"I know that as well"

No, you don't. You just told me murder was OK. Murder is not OK, no matter what you think your puppet god decreed. That is why people have a problem with religion, because of ones that are using it to justify something like murder.


"It is not a question of morality, but of definition. The highest law supercedes all other law, and if the highest law sanctions or commands a death, it is not murder(unlawful killing)."

You can't justify murder with games of semantics.


"I've never said that I believe God will command killing..."

Well, then let us hope that your pet imaginary friend never changes his mind. Because apparently you would kill without thought or emotional reflection.

It is this exact lack of reasoning, this mindless endorsement of evil, that causes people to say "faith is evil".

 

[Meow Mix]

Sometimes we demand Old Testament justice. We're not perfect.

Too true, but we can strive to be perfect and reject with all of our strength injustice like described in the passage I quoted.

 

[smokydot]

Exactly. It never was a command - it was a theological reflection.

Deut. is the second giving of the Law, after their 38 years in the desert and just before crossing the Jordan into Canaan.
Moses gave the Law a second time because all those who were living when it was first given at Mt. Sinai were now dead,
and it needed to be presented again before they went into Canaan.

Moses said, "These are the commands, decrees and laws the LORD your God directed me to teach you to observe in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess,
so that you, your children and their children after them may fear the LORD your God as long as you live by keeping all his decrees and commands that I give you,
and so that you may enjoy long life." (Dt 6:1-2)

Scripture does not present these laws given by Moses in Deut. as "theological reflection."
Rather, it presents them as coming directly from God, through Moses.
Scripture likewise presents God as ensuring that his Word is not altered in its transmissions from his personal spokespersons.
Therefore, there is no Scriptural justification for supposing these were not the commands of God.

Those who believe as Jesus did, that Scripture is the very Word of God, do not try to alter the plain meaning of its texts, as in: "the LORD your God directed me."

 

[Meow Mix]

Deut. is the second giving of the Law, after their 38 years in the desert and just before crossing the Jordan into Canaan.
Moses gave the Law a second time because all those who were living when it was first given at Mt. Sinai were now dead,
and it needed to be presented again before they went into Canaan.

Moses said, "These are the commands, decrees and laws the LORD your God directed me to teach you to observe in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to possess,
so that you, your children and their children after them may fear the LORD your God as long as you live by keeping all his decrees and commands that I give you,
and so that you may enjoy long life." (Dt 6:1-2)

Scripture does not present these laws given by Moses in Deut. as "theological reflection."
Rather, it presents them as coming directly from God, through Moses.
Scripture likewise presents God as ensuring that his Word is not altered in its transmissions from his personal spokespersons.
Therefore, there is no Scriptural justification for supposing these were not the commands of God.

Those who believe as Jesus did, that Scripture is the very Word of God, do not try to alter the plain meaning of its texts, as in: "the LORD your God directed me."

Interesting. In your opinion, if the above is true, why did God go from such a mean guy to a "turn the other cheek" guy in the NT (though talking a lot more about gnashing teeth and hellfire)?

 

[smokydot]

This is my point, thank you.

As for it not being God's command, I have to ask though: how do you know? What bits can you tell are from God and what bits are from humans and what's the method to tell the difference?

It is God's command. See post #104.

Yes, God is not only loving, he is also just.
And his justice is terrifying.

That's why sinners need to be saved from the just wrath of God on their sin.
That's what Jesus came to do and to tell us. . .and the wrath he came to warn us of.

 

[smokydot]

It's a long road for many people. I was brought up thinking that the Bible was inerrant and infalliable - but then I started studying the history of the Bible and saw the history of the Biblical texts.
This history is undeniable truth that the "word of God" is in the custody of human hands, and we have changed it significantly. If we can change the copies, the literal, written word of God is completely lost. That's why so many evangelical conservative Christians become atheist in seminary or in their doctoral work.

I guess those of faith get to decide if they believe Jesus when he said, "Till heaven and earth pass away,
one jot or one tittle shall no wise pass from the law (Scriptures) till all be fulfilled."
That is a promise from Jesus himself of preservation of the purity of Scripture.
When not one tittle will pass from it, it will indeed be pure.

 

[smokydot]

I am influenced by Bultmann, but I think that he applied his expertise to the NT only.
For the Christian, like I said before, we should interpret the text as if it were only a human document.
Then, we extract from that document what speaks to us as belivers. That's not a very scientific method, but it should be restrained somewhat by the boundaries set by responsible interpretation. These boundaries include the constraints of language, historical contexts, and other interdiciplinary studies.
I personally believe that humanism should come first - the word of God only exists where it enhances and encourages the human experience. And then by faith we can realize the myth.

This low view of Scripture is not held by orthodox Christianity.

 

[VenatorAnima]

I have never understood how people who push their beliefs on others are doing good.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Too true, but we can strive to be perfect and reject with all of our strength injustice like described in the passage I quoted.

In my world view this is the central issue. Does our personal philosophy enable us to strive to make the world a better place. If not then our Religion ( or Atheism) is worthless and is just intellectual masturbation.

 

[smokydot]

Interesting. In your opinion, if the above is true, why did God go from such a mean guy to a "turn the other cheek" guy in the NT (though talking a lot more about gnashing teeth and hellfire)?

He didn't change, it's the same God. The NT likewise shows the wrath of God. Check out

Lk 21:23; Jn 3:36; Ro 1:18, 2:5, 4:15, 5:9, 9:22, 13:4; Eph 2:3, 5:6; Col 3:6; 1 Th 1:10, 2:16, 5:9.

 

[outhouse]

It should be terrifying to us if we really believe that God would ever command such things. If God can do it once, he can do it again.

why would it be so terrifying when we know know god kills every living thing on the planet with the story of noah, god commands murder and genocide many times. theres no suprise here, with all the innocent lives he has suppose to have taken.

this is my thoughts,,,,, did god make so many mistakes that he had to evolve into the NT,, OR did the people behind the myth evolve once they realized there mistakes.

its one or the other is it not????

 

[Storm]

It was written during a period of conservative reform of Temple-based worship when Judah was dealing with, and trying to purge, idolatrous practices mainly of Assyrian origin during the reign of Josiah.

So far, it looks like a big fat "NO".

Actually, I thought Luna's explanation rather effective. It was written for a certain time with a certain goal.

 

[smokydot]

In my opinion your very wrong

why would it be so terrifying when we know know god kills every living thing on the planet with the story of noah, god commands murder and genocide many times. theres no suprise here, with all the innocent lives he has suppose to have taken.

this is my thoughts,,,,, did god make so many mistakes that he had to evolve into the NT,, OR did the people behind the myth evolve once they realized there mistakes.

its one or the other is it not????

Nope, it's neither.

It's the same God in both the OT and the NT. See post #111.

 

[Meow Mix]

It is God's command. See post #104.

Yes, God is not only loving, he is also just.
And his justice is terrifying.

That's why sinners need to be saved from the just wrath of God on their sin.
That's what Jesus came to do and to tell us. . .and the wrath he came to warn us of.

You think it's just to murder family members who are apostates, or that it was ever just to do so? Just out of curiosity?

 

[outhouse]

It's the same God in both the OT and the NT. See post #111.

i did

count how many god murders in the OT by his command verses the NT and look at the difference.

 

[Meow Mix]

This low view of Scripture is not applicable to the ancient 1400+ year-old unaltered texts of Eastern Christianity in the Greek Orthodox Church,
to which the Textus Receptus of Erasmus is identical.

It's not good that it's the corrupt texts of the Western Church with which you are familiar.
You have been deprived of a glorious faith in the pure Word of God which Jesus promised (see post #107),
and which is preserved in the Textus Receptus, through the Greek Orthodox Church's texts going back 1400+ years.

The "god" described therein sounds anything but "glorious." More like a malevolent, petty demon. It truly frightens me that people can look at that stuff and say that it's "just" or "good." This is an example for how faith can be dangerous: it can lead people to believe that murdering family is "good" and "just." That's awful, and terrifying.

You speak of being terrified of God: I'm terrified of some of his supposed followers, that's for sure.

 

[painted wolf]

One must maintain cultural identity and prevent loosing tribe members to outside peer groups.
The monkeyssphere must be maintained. Especially, if you seem to get into a lot of scraps with your neighbors.

wa:do

 

[Meow Mix]

One must maintain cultural identity and prevent loosing tribe members to outside peer groups.
The monkeyssphere must be maintained. Especially, if you seem to get into a lot of scraps with your neighbors.

wa:do

It's perfectly sensible that fallible, primitive human beings would come up with such rules.

But a powerful and benevolent God? No way.

A malicious, petty tyrant of a "god?" Maybe.

 

[painted wolf]

The "god" described therein sounds anything but "glorious." More like a malevolent, petty demon. It truly frightens me that people can look at that stuff and say that it's "just" or "good." This is an example for how faith can be dangerous: it can lead people to believe that murdering family is "good" and "just." That's awful, and terrifying.

You speak of being terrified of God: I'm terrified of some of his supposed followers, that's for sure.

Oddly, it was pretty liberal for it's time. Granted that was a long time ago.
I find the evolution of the Bible god to be fascinating.

wa:do