Christians Only: The Book of Mormon

[John1.12]

So it's ok for you to bear false witness about me to my face?

NO!!! And no, you've not remotely convince me that you are the "true Christian" here-- quite the opposite actually.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of my credentials. I'm discussing the Bible and Jesus. I'm pointing to Jesus, not myself .

 

[Jane.Doe]

I'm not trying to convince anyone of my credentials. I'm discussing the Bible and Jesus. I'm pointing to Jesus, not myself .

Are you going to apologize for bearing false witness about me to my face?
Are you going to face evidence?

 

[John1.12]

So it's ok for you to bear false witness about me to my face?

NO!!! And no, you've not remotely convince me that you are the "true Christian" here-- quite the opposite actually.

I did not grow up with christianity at all around me . I've been atheist/ agnostic most of my life . Much later in life I began a dance class to teach Latin dance . A lady started my classes who was a Christian. After a while we would become friends and regularly go to dance event s ( with a group of friends also ) Gradually my curiosity of her beliefs started to spark conversation. At the time I was into Eastern philosophy ect . So we used to talk about ' spiritual ' things . This led to more and more questions, as I thought I could convince her that her beliefs were just inherited and taught by her parents and there wasn't really any truth to the claims of Christianity . long story short all the back and forth ,her answers were really challenging what I believed and my world view . In my quest to prove her wrong ,I began watching debates on you tube ( Christianity v atheism ect ) , then i started researching until eventually I bought a bible ( secretly) and at work I just read through the new testament. I'd already heard the gospel over and over ,and after reading the bible it all just finally came to a head one evening. I began to realise it was all true , I ran out of arguments to disprove the claims of Jesus. His death and resurrection. So one night I literally Just burst into tears realising the reality of who Jesus was and what he did . I just cried out and said " yes I believe " With every part of my being I knew it was all true . I believed that Jesus died for my sins ,the whole nine yards. Jesus is God and the bible is true. It was an incredible moment which this verse later I knew had happened to me after I believed on Jesus that night all alone in my apartment at exactly midnight. Of all the descriptions in the bible of what happens to a person the moment they trust and receive Jesus happened to me . I actually experienced it happen .
Now I could go on and on about what happened to me that night which was incredible, I still get emotional just thinking about what happened to me and subsequently after and how my life has radically changed in a profound way .
But all of it is to be carefully understood by scripture. If what happened is not in the bible then its meaningless . The bible says even if an angel comes to you with something that's not what is scriptural then to ignore it . Gal 1
Oh and the Christian lady who came to my dance class ,is now my wife .

 

[Jane.Doe]

I did not grow up with christianity at all around me . I've been atheist/ agnostic most of my life . Much later in life I began a dance class to teach Latin dance . A lady started my classes who was a Christian. After a while we would become friends and regularly go to dance event s ( with a group of friends also ) Gradually my curiosity of her beliefs started to spark conversation. At the time I was into Eastern philosophy ect . So we used to talk about ' spiritual ' things . This led to more and more questions, as I thought I could convince her that her beliefs were just inherited and taught by her parents and there wasn't really any truth to the claims of Christianity . long story short all the back and forth ,her answers were really challenging what I believed and my world view . In my quest to prove her wrong ,I began watching debates on you tube ( Christianity v atheism ect ) , then i started researching until eventually I bought a bible ( secretly) and at work I just read through the new testament. I'd already heard the gospel over and over ,and after reading the bible it all just finally came to a head one evening. I began to realise it was all true , I ran out of arguments to disprove the claims of Jesus. His death and resurrection. So one night I literally Just burst into tears realising the reality of who Jesus was and what he did . I just cried out and said " yes I believe " With every part of my being I knew it was all true . I believed that Jesus died for my sins ,the whole nine yards. Jesus is God and the bible is true. It was an incredible moment which this verse later I knew had happened to me after I believed on Jesus that night all alone in my apartment at exactly midnight. Of all the descriptions in the bible of what happens to a person the moment they trust and receive Jesus happened to me . I actually experienced it happen .
Now I could go on and on about what happened to me that night which was incredible, I still get emotional just thinking about what happened to me and subsequently after and how my life has radically changed in a profound way .
But all of it is to be carefully understood by scripture. If what happened is not in the bible then its meaningless . The bible says even if an angel comes to you with something that's not what is scriptural then to ignore it . Gal 1

That's ABOSLUTLEY AWEESOME!! Thank you for finally sharing your discernment process and journey to Christ.

It doesn't address the part about you bearing false witness about me, but it's still awesome to hear.

 

[John1.12]

That's ABOSLUTLEY AWEESOME!! Thank you for finally sharing your discernment process and journey to Christ.

It doesn't address the part about you bearing false witness about me, but it's still awesome to hear.

I wasn't being personal . usually people who find out I'm a Christian ask questions related. When I meet a mormon I likewise ask questions relating. I can only try go on what my experience of LDS has been. Thats why I asked the questions I asked . Because most Mormons say they had confirmation through a burning in the bosom that Joseph Smith is a prophet and the book of Mormon is true . In fact that is usually all mormons tell me to do . " read the BOM ,pray and ask if its true " .

 

[Jane.Doe]

I wasn't being personal . usually people who find out I'm a Christian ask questions related. When I meet a mormon I likewise ask questions relating. I can only try go on what my experience of LDS has been. Thats why I asked the questions I asked . Because most Mormons say they had confirmation through a burning in the bosom that Joseph Smith is a prophet and the book of Mormon is true . In fact that is usually all mormons tell me to do . " read the BOM ,pray and ask if its true " .

There is NOTHING more personal than somebody's relationship with Christ. Yes, it's VERY personal. And you lied about mine and my discernment process, ignoring the evidence directly in front of you. While trying to "save" me, you've actually blatantly ignored me and my relationship with Christ.

And let's not trade those "ministry" experiences-- I'd rather not recount the many many horrible sins I've seen done in the name of "anti-cult Christian ministries". I'd rather judge you for you, and everyone check all stereotypes (which are poisonous by nature) at the door.

 

[Art1787]

Share what you personally believe to be the strongest evidence - either for or against - the Book of Mormon.

Please limit yourself to just the one example and try to keep it civil.

Well, if I have to choose just one, it would have to be the first time I baptized somebody. As I spoke the baptismal prayer and immersed her, the Holy Ghost filled me, body and spirit, with a burning witness of truth. I knew that what I had been teaching was all true, including The Book of Mormon.

Now before anybody can move the goalposts, yes, I could conceptualize my psyche manufacturing a feeling of love or of joy, but an entirely new sensation? I think not.

 

[John1.12]

There is NOTHING more personal than somebody's relationship with Christ. Yes, it's VERY personal. And you lied about mine and my discernment process, ignoring the evidence directly in front of you. While trying to "save" me, you've actually blatantly ignored me and my relationship with Christ.

And let's not trade those "ministry" experiences-- I'd rather not recount the many many horrible sins I've seen done in the name of "anti-cult Christian ministries". I'd rather judge you for you, and everyone check all stereotypes (which are poisonous by nature) at the door.

But ! Are you a Mormon and do you hold to the Lds teachings ?

 

[Jane.Doe]

But ! Are you a Mormon and do you hold to the Lds teachings ?

Yes, and yes. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, a Christian. Of the LDS variety.

Now, are you a Christian and do you hold to Christ's teachings? Such as "thou shall not bear false witness"? Because I have yet to se you apologize for doing that exact thing and I admittedly have little patience for unrepentant hypocrites or idol worshippers.

 

[John1.12]

Well, if I have to choose just one, it would have to be the first time I baptized somebody. As I spoke the baptismal prayer and immersed her, the Holy Ghost filled me, body and spirit, with a burning witness of truth. I knew that what I had been teaching was all true, including The Book of Mormon.

Now before anybody can move the goalposts, yes, I could conceptualize my psyche manufacturing a feeling of love or of joy, but an entirely new sensation? I think not.

Yes, and yes. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, a Christian. Of the LDS variety.

Now, are you a Christian and do you hold to Christ's teachings? Such as "thou shall not bear false witness"? Because I have yet to se you apologize for doing that exact thing and I admittedly have little patience for unrepentant hypocrites or idol worshippers.

Then if you are a Christian, why on earth do believe in Mormonism? I'm trying to understand. No ones lying here I'm trying to understand.My point was , I am a Christian. I know Lds teachings . There not Christian . Thats not a insult ,that's a fact .

 

[John1.12]

Yes, and yes. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, a Christian. Of the LDS variety.

Now, are you a Christian and do you hold to Christ's teachings? Such as "thou shall not bear false witness"? Because I have yet to se you apologize for doing that exact thing and I admittedly have little patience for unrepentant hypocrites or idol worshippers.

Now it could be that you are saved ,but have stumbled into the Lds teachings accidently. Many Catholics are possibly saved but in Catholicism because they don't really understand the church they are involved in . But no one is getting saved by Mormonism or Catholicism. It will be inspite of it and because they believed the Gospel somehow.

 

[Jane.Doe]

Then if you are a Christian, why on earth do believe in Mormonism? I'm trying to understand. No ones lying here I'm trying to understand.

This post of yours is you lying about me (and a bunch of other folks):

No that is what Mormons Believe . They read in James where it says to pray for wisdom and think this is a general invitation . They don't check with the same bible that confirmation is not given as a burning in the bosom. They take another verse out of context in Acts where the two diciples ' experienced ' something when Jesus revealed himself to them ,when he broke bread . They think this is how truth is revealed and validated for everyone in a similar way ( inductive reasoning) .

I am a Christian because I have embraced Jesus Christ as my Lord & Savior. This is the result of decades of intensive study (yes, including cover-to-cover Bible reading), pondering, and prayer. It is a not a whimsical thing. I believe strongly in faith through salvation in Jesus Christ, that He loves each of His each one of His children and died for them. I believe that He rose on third day and still lives glorified. I believe the Bible is the word of God, but I don't believe that all of God's words & marvels are limited to just that text.

I am not a Christian of Protestant variety, because with all due respect, I don't find all of those beliefs supported through my studies. I acknowledge you do and I totally acknowledge and respect your right to believe in that regard, but I do not.

I am a Christian of the LDS verity because that's where I have found the most truth aligned with the Bible and my other studies.


Note: actual LDS Christian beliefs are very different than what "anti-cult" materials will describe. So if you want to know something, please ask what's actually believed in that regard. I'm practically OCD honest.

Now it could be that you are saved ,but have stumbled into the Lds teachings accidently.

Not accidently.

Decades of intensive study. Please move beyond any stereotypes that I'm dumb, unstudied, or anything like that. Stereotypes serve only to harm and cloud true understanding.

 

[John1.12]

This post of yours is you lying about me (and a bunch of other folks):




I am a Christian because I have embraced Jesus Christ as my Lord & Savior. This is the result of decades of intensive study (yes, including cover-to-cover Bible reading), pondering, and prayer. It is a not a whimsical thing. I believe strongly in faith through salvation in Jesus Christ, that He loves each of His each one of His children and died for them. I believe that He rose on third day and still lives glorified. I believe the Bible is the word of God, but I don't believe that all of God's words & marvels are limited to just that text.

I am not a Christian of Protestant variety, because with all due respect, I don't find all of those beliefs supported through my studies. I acknowledge you do and I totally acknowledge and respect your right to believe in that regard, but I do not.

I am a Christian of the LDS verity because that's where I have found the most truth aligned with the Bible and my other studies.


Note: actual LDS Christian beliefs are very different than what "anti-cult" materials will describe. So if you want to know something, please ask what's actually believed in that regard. I'm practically OCD honest.



Not accidently.

Decades of intensive study. Please move beyond any stereotypes that I'm dumb, unstudied, or anything like that. Stereotypes serve only to harm and cloud true understanding.

Ok what did you believe before you joined the Lds ?

 

[idea]

I would not use ' feelings ' as confirmation that something is from God . I would use the bible. Not devoid of emotions / experience, perspectival, participatory, and the other two kinds of knowing, which escapes me right now lol . But scripture is the final authority for me .

The Bible certainly is an incredible book, so much history behind it - I have spent time in Israel and yes, there is evidence for it. I've also been through South America from Machu Picchu up to Tikal and Caracol where some correlate Mormon teaching inspiration. I'm a STEM teacher by trade, and the final undisputed agreed upon book that trumps them all is nature. Within nature is written laws we can all see and agree on, we all grew up with it - no language or cultural barriers.... the surpassing peace found sitting near a babbling brook, or listening to the wind in the leaves of the trees - and knowing those escapes are there for all of us, independent of race, gender, ethnicity - we all walk out the door under the same star filled sky - nature is my new church, the final authority and place to find knowledge, the creation best testifies of the creator.

 

[Jane.Doe]

Ok what did you believe before you joined the Lds ?

A better question is: what other Christian faiths have you intensively studied (going to their services, taking courses with them, studying with them, asking questions, etc).

Listing a few off the top of my head: Non-denominational, Evangelical, Baptist, Methodist, Calvinist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Catholic (RCC and Byzantine rites), Orthodox (Russian and Coptic branches), SDA, JW, Christ-Scientist, "anti-cult". I do LOTS of studying.

 

[sojourner]

Well as my ministry has been to reach Mormons , Jehovah witnesses ect with the gospel I have had plenty of interaction with such groups through my work , street preaching. Every time I've spoken to a Mormon this is the type of explanation I've witnessed from them .

Interesting. What are your ministerial credentials?

 

[idea]

yes, I could conceptualize my psyche manufacturing a feeling of love or of joy, but an entirely new sensation? I think not.

Did you grow up in the Mormon church? I agree, yes it is a unique sensation, it is not just a feeling or emotion, it is different, and I suppose it is impossible for any person to explain what they have felt to any other person. I learned how to find that feeling again, and I too for a time correlated it to the Mormon faith. If there are good spirits, and evil spirits masquerading as angels of light - with none to tell the difference between them.... you might understand my confusion when I felt the spirit at Holland's general conference story, to later find the story was fake. understand confusion at sustaining someone to the bishopric, then finding that person was a child molester. thinking I "knew" tithing was going to a good cause, then finding it actually went to large bank accounts and building malls... when trying to help a homeless girl was refused any assistance. ... then working with other charitable organizations, and finding support for homeless, support for abuse victims, finding amazing solid honest humble families of all faiths .... I hosted a memorable thanksgiving with Muslims, a Jew, an athiest, Mormons, Christian all around the same table. This was my moment - where I knew there was no true church, that we have to look past those names and titles, and just be people. No book, no building, no leader - God has given us all our conscience, has given us all friends and family, has given us all nature and this life and no person and no church owns that. No person defines family ties. No organization has authority to baptize another (if you felt the spirit, I think it was your heart and possible ties to the person, not the church). Salvation is free to everyone, we are all equally beloved, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent. No leaders, no followers, we are all humans in this crazy wonderful world. The only thing needed, to follow our conscience.

this "we're the only authority" and we are the only truth, and only males (white males for a long time) can do xyz, and no one else is led by the spirit stuff? It is simply not true. Everyone is equally led by the spirit, everyone is equally loved by God, everyone has an equal amount of authority for themselves and their family. Families are sealed by love to one another (not sealed by a man-made organization).

Good people in all walks of life, and in all the different religious groups.... but when you start saying "callings are from God" (really? God wanted a pedophile working with kids? and if you do not sustain said pedophile you lose your temple recommend?) when you start thinking your church is better than others, or God only works with people who believe the same book you believe? it turns from beauty to ashes.

Revelations talks about false churches being torn down in the latter days, that before Christ comes, all the other organizations will crumble. It is happening - the fastest growing spirituality is "none", not atheist, but "none" as in "not affiliated". This is my new home too, no title, no denomination, no single book, but spiritual yes, love Jesus yes, working my tail off to serve and do what I can for good in the world, yes.

Not about choosing the right church, or reading the right book. All we need is what all everyone - everyone in the whole world who has ever or will ever live has been freely given - all we need is our conscience. Anything else would be unloving, unjust, unfair.

 

[sojourner]

The Bible certainly is an incredible book, so much history behind it - I have spent time in Israel and yes, there is evidence for it. I've also been through South America from Machu Picchu up to Tikal and Caracol where some correlate Mormon teaching inspiration. I'm a STEM teacher by trade, and the final undisputed agreed upon book that trumps them all is nature. Within nature is written laws we can all see and agree on, we all grew up with it - no language or cultural barriers.... the surpassing peace found sitting near a babbling brook, or listening to the wind in the leaves of the trees - and knowing those escapes are there for all of us, independent of race, gender, ethnicity - we all walk out the door under the same star filled sky - nature is my new church, the final authority and place to find knowledge, the creation best testifies of the creator.

Eco psychology refers to “place-bonding.” Celtic mystic William Sharp referred to “the Green Life” (that deep abiding flow of primal earth wisdom inherent in the natural world). Frank MacEowen refers to “hillwalking” and “The Great Mirror” of nature that mirrors our own soul, if we’re paying attention. Theologian Sallie McFague posits that the world is “God’s body.”

 

[sojourner]

Did you grow up in the Mormon church? I agree, yes it is a unique sensation, it is not just a feeling or emotion, it is different, and I suppose it is impossible for any person to explain what they have felt to any other person. I learned how to find that feeling again, and I too for a time correlated it to the Mormon faith. If there are good spirits, and evil spirits masquerading as angels of light - with none to tell the difference between them.... you might understand my confusion when I felt the spirit at Holland's general conference story, to later find the story was fake. understand confusion at sustaining someone to the bishopric, then finding that person was a child molester. thinking I "knew" tithing was going to a good cause, then finding it actually went to large bank accounts and building malls... when trying to help a homeless girl was refused any assistance. ... then working with other charitable organizations, and finding support for homeless, support for abuse victims, finding amazing solid honest humble families of all faiths .... I hosted a memorable thanksgiving with Muslims, a Jew, an athiest, Mormons, Christian all around the same table. This was my moment - where I knew there was no true church, that we have to look past those names and titles, and just be people. No book, no building, no leader - God has given us all our conscience, has given us all friends and family, has given us all nature and this life and no person and no church owns that. No person defines family ties. No organization has authority to baptize another (if you felt the spirit, I think it was your heart and possible ties to the person, not the church). Salvation is free to everyone, we are all equally beloved, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent. No leaders, no followers, we are all humans in this crazy wonderful world. The only thing needed, to follow our conscience.

this "we're the only authority" and we are the only truth, and only males (white males for a long time) can do xyz, and no one else is led by the spirit stuff? It is simply not true. Everyone is equally led by the spirit, everyone is equally loved by God, everyone has an equal amount of authority for themselves and their family. Families are sealed by love to one another (not sealed by a man-made organization).

Good people in all walks of life, and in all the different religious groups.... but when you start saying "callings are from God" (really? God wanted a pedophile working with kids? and if you do not sustain said pedophile you lose your temple recommend?) when you start thinking your church is better than others, or God only works with people who believe the same book you believe? it turns from beauty to ashes.

Revelations talks about false churches being torn down in the latter days, that before Christ comes, all the other organizations will crumble. It is happening - the fastest growing spirituality is "none", not atheist, but "none" as in "not affiliated". This is my new home too, no title, no denomination, no single book, but spiritual yes, love Jesus yes, working my tail off to serve and do what I can for good in the world, yes.

Not about choosing the right church, or reading the right book. All we need is what all everyone - everyone in the whole world who has ever or will ever live - all we need is our conscience. Anything else would be unloving, unjust, unfair.

I’m really resonating with this. I’ve been taught that to walk in beauty is to walk in right relationship. That’s what the spiritual path is all about: right relationship.

 

[John1.12]

A better question is: what other Christian faiths have you intensively studied (going to their services, taking courses with them, studying with them, asking questions, etc).

Listing a few off the top of my head: Non-denominational, Evangelical, Baptist, Methodist, Calvinist, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Catholic (RCC and Byzantine rites), Orthodox (Russian and Coptic branches), SDA, JW, Christ-Scientist, "anti-cult". I do LOTS of studying.

Were you a believer then? Atheist ? Agnostic ?