Christians - what is "Christian"?

[ayani]

i was looking over this article tonight, and got thinking...

it seems that hisorically there have been two ways of saying "Christian". something can be Christian becaue it is believed or practiced by people or churches identifying with Jesus Christ, or something can be Christian as in "Biblically Christ-taught or demonstrated".

for example, the veneration of saints / pious Chistians. if "Christian" is taken to mean something Biblically taught or demonstated by Jesus of Nazareth, than the adoration of saints / especially pious Christians is not Christian, as Jesus prays only to the Father, and being One with God Himself recieves prayer and worship from others. but if "Christian" simply means what is historically practiced or believed by Christians, that the practice of saint veneration is certainly Christian, as it is widespread and historical.

for a Christian, where to draw the line between the traditions of men, and the ways of God? can one be a disciple of Christ Jesus while doing / believing things not Biblically taught or mentioned by Him?

 

[BruceDLimber]

Hi!

I'd say "Christian" implies acceptance both of the station of Jesus Christ and of the Bible as scripture.

As such, we Baha'is clearly come under this description even though many of our beliefs differ from main stream Christianity!

Best!

Bruce

 

[herushura]

Christian are Piscean worhippers, worship nothing more then a Fish God called jesus, The Jewish Passover is a ritual of killing lambs at passover, in reality when the sun passover to aries on the spring equinox, symbolized by killing lamb.
The Last Supper, was the last date in which the sun will enter aries on the spring equinox (Year 1AD), this is why christian dont kill the passover sheep anymore, instead symbology is now fish, not lamb.

Symbol of Christ
ΙΧΘΥΣ = Fish,

At the feeding of the five thousand, a boy is brought to Jesus with "five small loaves and two fishes".

Jesus compares God's decision on who will go to heaven or to hell ("the fiery furnace") at the end of this world to fishers sorting out their catch, keeping the good fish and throwing the bad fish away.

disciples fished all night but caught nothing. Jesus instructed them to cast the nets on the other side of the boat, and they drew in 153 fish.
Popesa is like a Fish hat.

And that what christianity is all about.

 

[ChristineES]

Jesus (or Yeshua) never told His Apostles to stop being Jews. They never said they were anything but Jews. Paul is the one who coined the term Christian- and the people he spread Jesus' teachings to were not Jews- so Christian would be what they are called. Does that make sense?
Jesus teachings included a lot more than just catching fish.

 

[herushura]

Jesus (or Yeshua) never told His Apostles to stop being Jews. They never said they were anything but Jews. Paul is the one who coined the term Christian- and the people he spread Jesus' teachings to were not Jews- so Christian would be what they are called. Does that make sense?
Jesus teachings included a lot more than just catching fish.

Not to mention the Word "Jew" came from the development of the word "ieu" ye'shu aka Jesus. The word "Shu" on the other hand is Ancient Egyptian for "Life,Spirit" thus the greek would by "Shus" - sus. thus ye'shu became ie'sus and personally i dont see any proof that the word yeshu as anything to do with yhwh. knor it means God rescues, if it really means "god rescues" it would render as "el'shus" on the other hand "Ye" i belive means "I am", thus yeshu means "i am the spirit".

 

[ayani]

Christine ~

you're right. in fact, the one church that still exists which can be said to definitely be apostolic in origin, is the Mar Thoma Indian Christian community in India. founded by the Apostle Thomas in AD 53, the first converts were dispersed Jews living in the port city of Cochin.

until Roman Catholics "discovered" this church in the 1500's and enforced various reforms, these Christians gathered to worship of Saturday, celebrated communion with unleavened bread, and worshiped partly in Aramaic.

for me, what defines "Christian" is whether something is Biblically Christ-taught and demonstrated. i believe He is the Son of God, Messiah, the Saviour, and because of what He has done for me, i want to grow more like Him. i learn about what is Christian from the Gospel accounts of Him, and from the letters written by His earliest followers. but by far, personal prayer is the greatest help to me.

many things are believed and practiced by Christians which may be in some way Christ-focused, but not neccesarily in step with what He has demonstated to us, taught us, or shown us by example. yet to be dogmatic or harsh towards diverse Christian expressions of worship is also un-Christian. unity does not have to imply uniformity. but what is important is distinguishing the traditions of men, from the commendments of God.

 

[Katzpur]

i was looking over this article tonight, and got thinking...

Well, for starters, I have a major problem with Christians who tell other people who profess to be Christians that they aren't the real thing. (I betcha you already knew that, though, huh?)

for a Christian, where to draw the line between the traditions of men, and the ways of God? can one be a disciple of Christ Jesus while doing / believing things not Biblically taught or mentioned by Him?

If a Christian must only believe those things specifically taught in the Bible, we're in a heap of trouble. The word "Christian" is only mentioned once or twice in the Bible, and is never actually defined. Consequently, the problem originates with what most Christians use as their primary source for defining doctrine. None of us should even claim to be Christians since the Bible doesn't tell us what qualifies us to claim that title. All Christians have doctrines that are not specifically biblical. Most of them just refuse to admit it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

*** Mod Advisory ***
​

Please remember that this thread is in the Same Faith Debates forum and is intended for Christians only. The thread title has been modified to point this out more explicitly.

Thanks,

9-10ths_Penguin
Mod

 

[ayani]

Katz -

but there are certain specific standards which Christ points to. there are certain things He does, and teaches us to do. there are certain behaviors He warns against, and certain things which He says about Himself, and the Father who sent Him.

there are certain criteria for Christian belief and faith in the Bible itself. some Messiah-given, some apostolic. for examples of all of these, one can look to

Matthew 6

John 3:1-15

Romans 10:9-10

1 John 2:1-11

what is clear is that discipleship means following up on one's salvation by faith and grace. what is clear is that Jesus Himself points to what He wants us to do, be, and become. He shows us how to pray, how not to pray, how to treat one another, and He gives us clear statements about who He is. do we believe Him? we base our faith around Him, but how? in what ways?

that's the question i'm asking. what makes something Christian? and why is it so?

 

[ayani]

and Katz, why are Christians who rely solely on the Bible necessarily in a heap of trouble? could you clarify?

doubtless many Christians believe things not spelled out in the Bible, or not mentioned therein. this also relates to how one views one's relationship to the Bible, and what this means for one's instruction in faith. yet a non-Biblical tradition is not necessarily bad, or useless. traditional liturgy can be really nice, and so can Chris Tomlin blaring over a speaker system- yet the Bible doesn't tell us exactly how to worship when we meet.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

Not to mention the Word "Jew" came from the development of the word "ieu" ye'shu aka Jesus.

It's my understanding that Yeshua is the equivalent of the English name Joshua.

Peace,

Bruce

 

[Katzpur]

and Katz, why are Christians who rely solely on the Bible necessarily in a heap of trouble? could you clarify?

I think you may have misunderstood me, ayani. What I actually said was, "If a Christian must only believe those things specifically taught in the Bible, we're in a heap of trouble." Christians who believe in the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, for instance, are hard pressed to find anything in the Bible that teaches this doctrine. They insist that everything God wants us to know pertaining to our salvation can be found in the Bible, and that if something is not found in the Bible, it's not necessary for our salvation. They are critical of other Christians (Roman and Eastern Catholics and Mormons, for instance) who believe otherwise, and often go so far as to say that anyone who rejects the doctrine of Sola Scriptura is not a true Christian. These people are in a heap of trouble in terms of finding evidence to support their claim. That's all I meant. I apologize if it came across otherwise.

 

[ἀλήθεια]

deleted by ἀλήθεια

 

[Charity]

I believe that Christian can only be defined as being Christ like. A person who follows and adheres to the teaching of Christ and God, the Father. This is a person who teaches love, forgiveness, meekness and the qualities that were demonstrated by Christ. We may not be perfect but we strive to be, we make mistakes and we ask forgiveness, and we should be forgiving to others without passing judgment. We should be able to do these things through our faith in Christ.

 

[ayani]

Katz ~

there are many practices and beliefs which are not found in the Bible, yet done and believed by many Christians. something can be non-Biblical without being wrong. likewise something believed based upon what is written in the Bible may not be true, either.

but considering Christians standards, what should define our faith?

we learn of Christ through the Gospel accounts of Him. we learn of His unique Sonship, words, teachings, doings, death, and resurrection through what the Gospel narratives. record. we were not with Him at this time- so by God's guidance these events were recorded by the authors of the Gospels, that we might hear and believe.

what if someone professing Christian faith begins teaching something not taught to us by Jesus Christ, or teaching something directly opposed to His words? i'm thinking now of those celebrity preachers who preach a prosperity gospel... they use only the Bible to back their messages, yet their message that "God wants you to be wealthy and comfy" directly contradicts what Christ tells us about Christian discipleship, and what He demonstrates by His own living example.

that goes back to the question, how do we discern what is Christian and what is not? what is ok and what is not ok? what is the standard? how does one discern between a practice of men, and a teaching of God?

 

[Katzpur]

that goes back to the question, how do we discern what is Christian and what is not? what is ok and what is not ok? what is the standard? how does one discern between a practice of men, and a teaching of God?

I think any Latter-day Saint would answer that question by quoting James 1:5, which is unquestionably one of our most frequently quoted Bible verses. It says simply, "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." One of the core beliefs of our faith is that God answers our prayers and if we ask Him for wisdom, with faith in our hearts and with sincere intent, He will respond.

 

[ayani]

Katz ~

yes, asking God for wisdom is the ight tthing to do, and that's what lead me to Christ. we should always ask Him for wisdom, and guidance.

yet for example,there are certain things people can believe, which would not be considered orthodox. for example, what of the teaching that Jesus was never a man, but in fact an angel? what of the belief that Christians do not / can sin? there are many things believed, yet many of them may not be right.

in the LDS church there are certain criteria for orthodoxy and non-orthodoxy. what are the criteria there?

 

[Katzpur]

yet for example,there are certain things people can believe, which would not be considered orthodox. for example, what of the teaching that Jesus was never a man, but in fact an angel? what of the belief that Christians do not / can sin? there are many things believed, yet many of them may not be right.

To me, this gets back to a statement I made on another thread. There are no two denominations of Christianity that teach exactly the same things. When two contradictory beliefs are taught, one of them can't be true. That doesn't mean, of course, that the other one actually is true. When you have twenty different points of Christian doctrine and a dozen or more different interpretations of each one, you've got a "Church" that is horribly spintered. I don't know how a person goes about determining who's right and who's wrong. But as soon as we start excluding people who don't believe as we do on every conceivable point of doctrine, we end up excluding everyone outside of our own denomination. I'm just not comfortable doing that. That's why I contend that a Christian is someone who believes in Jesus Christ, who tries to follow Jesus' teachings as he understands them, and who thinks of himself as a Christian.

in the LDS church there are certain criteria for orthodoxy and non-orthodoxy. what are the criteria there?

Yes, there is a very specific process used to determine orthodoxy. The LDS canon is comprised of four books which we consider to be scripture: The Holy Bible (KJV), The Book of Mormon, The Doctrine and Covenants, and The Pearl of Great Price. If you can find a teaching in one of these four books, you're talking doctrine. We refer to these four volumes of scripture as "the Standard Works" for the simple reason that they are the "standard" by which all other teachings must be measured.

There is one exception to this rule of thumb. We believe that Christ's Church is led today by living prophets, through whom God speaks to His children. Prophets receive revelation directly from God. Whenever a revelation is doctrinal in nature, it is always presented to the general Church membership for a sustaining vote. It is given either through the First Presidency of the Church (the President and his two counselors) or through the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as a single, united entity. Once the doctrine has been accepted by the members of the Church it becomes doctrine. At some point in time it will more than likely be added to The Doctrine and Covenants.

 

[ayani]

so within your church as well, there are crititeria for determining orthodoxy. what if an LDS member disagrees with something the counsel decides? is there anything that could or would happen, and what criteria would that person use to back their view?

you mentioned someone who believes in Jesus Christ, tries to follow His teachings, and thinks of themselves as a Christian. would you add anything to that? for example, many faiths include Jesus in their worldview as a divinely inspired person of some kind, agree with His ethical teachings, and if asked, would say that they can also call themseves Christian, as all faiths / messengers are essentially the same, andgive the same message. i've heard a number of argument on tha plane. would you agree with their assesment, or would you point to something more that's needed?

 

[Katzpur]

so within your church as well, there are crititeria for determining orthodoxy. what if an LDS member disagrees with something the counsel decides? is there anything that could or would happen, and what criteria would that person use to back their view?

We are free to disagree with anything that is taught. There are certain things which disagreeing with would prevent a person from being able to get a temple recommend (which is a small certificate that indicates that he is living according to certain standards of worthiness). For example, we are asked if we firmly believe that the Church Jesus Christ established has been restored to the Earth. If someone were to say, "No, I don't believe that has happened, because I don't believe there was ever an apostasy," he would most likely be refused a temple recommend. That's probably as far as it would go. If he started teaching a doctrine that was contrary to the core doctrines of the Church, he would probably ultimately be excommunicated. But as you have probably seen here on RF, not all Latter-day Saints believe exactly the same way. We are permitted to hold and express our own points of view, but we are not to try to present them as Church doctrine.

you mentioned someone who believes in Jesus Christ, tries to follow His teachings, and thinks of themselves as a Christian. would you add anything to that? for example, many faiths include Jesus in their worldview as a divinely inspired person of some kind, agree with His ethical teachings, and if asked, would say that they can also call themseves Christian, as all faiths / messengers are essentially the same, andgive the same message. i've heard a number of argument on tha plane. would you agree with their assesment, or would you point to something more that's needed?

My initial thought was to say that the belief that Jesus Christ is the "Only Begotten Son of God" would be a requirement, but even that phrase can be and is interpreted differently by different people who both claim to be Christians. I was thinking that the belief that Jesus is our Savior and Redeemer might be a qualifying characteristic of a Christian, but you can find a wide variety of beliefs on what salvation really means, and who Jesus saves. So no, I think I'm going to stick with my first answer. I believe that a Christian is someone who believes in Jesus Christ, tries to follow His teachings, and thinks of himself as a Christian. If a person thinks of himself as a Christian, it's obviously important to him that other people consider him to be one. I can easily accept the fact that someone errs in certain doctrines and still be a Christian. There probably aren't very many people in the world today who have a perfect understanding of every doctrine Jesus taught.