Christians, which Old Testament Laws to obey, and which to ignore?

[oldbadger]

God and Jesus eliminated the dietary laws; the sacrificial laws cannot be performed Biblically any longer. All of God people are required to keep the moral laws.

No Jesus dod not. There are dietary laws in the NT.

 

[oldbadger]

God's laws can be divided into at least 3 categories: dietary laws, ceremonial laws, which would include the Levitical, sacrificial laws, and the moral laws.

Dietary laws were for health, ceremonial laws were for cohesian, and your idea of moral laws were in fact for health, safety, strength, security.

As soon as you drop the holiness of the laws you will see them as they really were, laws to build an invisible tribe, which the Israelites were, until they let the laws lapse.

 

[shmogie]

God's laws can be divided into at least 3 categories: dietary laws, ceremonial laws, which would include the Levitical, sacrificial laws, and the moral laws.

God and Jesus eliminated the dietary laws; the sacrificial laws cannot be performed Biblically any longer. All of God people are required to keep the moral laws.

YOU divide them that way. To the Jews, it was THE TORAH, THE LAW. THE LAW. Christians trying to separate and quantify them so they can pick and choose what to keep isn't part of the equation. If you offend in one law of the Torah, you offend in all. Please show me in the NT where the divisions you make are made, then show me the instruction to keep some, but not all. If you keep the "moral law" and not commit adultery, by that laws standard you are A-OK. By the law of Christ, if you lust about it, it is as if you did it Two totally different laws

 

[omega2xx]

Really. So they didn't actually have to carry them out, eh?

That's right.

Look, there are 613 laws, all written for the safety, security, cohesian, health and strength of the Israelites, and you picked five which you thought were 'spiritual' and you were wrong.

All 613 are not figurative' most are literal. The 5 I picked were obvious(to me) examples figurative laws.

 

[omega2xx]

Can we agree that Christians have a new covenant filled with guidance, rules and laws, and you seem to still want to cherrypick the old covenant laws to your whims and fancies as it suits you, but you won't keep all of the moral ones such as shown previously?

No we can't. The new covenant(Jer 31:31-34) Is not about what I must do. It is about what God is going to do. There is nothing wrong with cherry picking. People use that silly term when the verse refute something they have said.

If you don't accept the new testament laws then how can you accept God's standards?

I am a fundamentalist. We accept ever jot and tittle in the NT and in the OT.

There are hundreds in the NT.

There are not 100's of laws in the NT, but I accept all that are in it.

 

[omega2xx]

No Jesus dod not. There are dietary laws in the NT.

Mark 7:19 - because it(food) does not goo into the heart, but into the stomach and is eliminated(thus He declared all foods clean).

What dietary laws are in the NT?

 

[omega2xx]

Dietary laws were for health, ceremonial laws were for cohesian, and your idea of moral laws were in fact for health, safety, strength, security.

Only if you consider they are for our SPIRITUAL health, safety, strength and security. In fact no laws are for our security(Gal 2:16 & 3:21). The laws were giving s we would know what God considers sin(Rom 7:7) and to lead us to Christ(Gal 3:24)

As soon as you drop the holiness of the laws you will see them as they really were, laws to build an invisible tribe, which the Israelites were, until they let the laws lapse.

God's laws did not built anything. They show us or sinfulness and our inability to keep them and to turn us to Christ.

 

[omega2xx]

YOU divide them that way. To the Jews, it was THE TORAH, THE LAW. THE LAW.

Even if that is true, and it is not, they got it wrong.

Christians trying to separate and quantify them so they can pick and choose what to keep isn't part of the equation.

That remark shows a complete lack of understanding of Christianity.

If you offend in one law of the Torah, you offend in all.

If you offend one law not in the Torah, you have offended in all.

Please show me in the NT where the divisions you make are made, then show me the instruction to keep some, but not all.

The division is not in the NT, it is in the OT. The dietary laws have been eliminated(Mk 7:19 & Acts 10:10-16). Without a priest, the ceremonial laws can't be kept Biblically.

If you keep the "moral law" and not commit adultery, by that laws standard you are A-OK. By the law of Christ, if you lust about it, it is as if you did it Two totally different laws

That's right. Now all that is required is to confess it to God and we well be forgiven and cleansed.

 

[shmogie]

Even if that is true, and it is not, they got it wrong.



That remark shows a complete lack of understanding of Christianity.



If you offend one law not in the Torah, you have offended in all.



The division is not in the NT, it is in the OT. The dietary laws have been eliminated(Mk 7:19 & Acts 10:10-16). Without a priest, the ceremonial laws can't be kept Biblically.




That's right. Now all that is required is to confess it to God and we well be forgiven and cleansed.

I have been thinking about our exchanges, and the difference boils down to perhaps what some would call a "technicality". My education, training and work experience is in the law where precision is required. So, although the Torah is part of the obsolete first covenant, certainly keeping the big ten is in harmony with Christianity, and have been reiterated as part of "the Royal law" or the "law of Christ". Provided Christians recognize the changes. The sabbath command is problematic if you believe the ten commandment law is still in effect, if so, then the SDA's are absolutely correct, the sabbath must be kept by Christians as instructed in Exodus. So some Christians purposely break a law they believe they are under........... but of course, they are not.




That remark shows a complete lack of understanding of Christianity.
With respect, you display a lack of understanding of both Christianity and OT Judaism.


If you offend one law not in the Torah, you have offended in all.



The division is not in the NT, it is in the OT. The dietary laws have been eliminated(Mk 7:19 & Acts 10:10-16). Without a priest, the ceremonial laws can't be kept Biblically.
Yes, the health laws were eliminated, and the system of atonement was fulfilled in Christ. But there are many of the 613 by your reckoning still in effect that you should be keeping. Thus, my comment that those Christians who want to be under the law of the Torah don't keep the law. They want to apply the big ten only, then make rationalizations they don't want to keep the 4th commandment as the Torah specifically states they should. Either you keep the law of the first covenant as God said it should be kept, including the ten, or you keep the law of Christ, you can't have it both ways.



That's right. Now all that is required is to confess it to God and we well be forgiven and cleansed.[/QUOTE]

 

[oldbadger]

What dietary laws are in the NT?

You are banned from eating blood, meat from strangled animals (ACTS 15:20) and meat offered to idols (ACTS 15:29)

 

[oldbadger]

No we can't. The new covenant(Jer 31:31-34) Is not about what I must do. It is about what God is going to do. There is nothing wrong with cherry picking. People use that silly term when the verse refute something they have said.

I am a fundamentalist. We accept ever jot and tittle in the NT and in the OT.

There are not 100's of laws in the NT, but I accept all that are in it.

Cherry picking means exactly what it means....... I'm not needing to refute anything, simply observing objectively.


You picked FIVE laws from the 613 in your attempts to show that they were spiritual...... you got 'em all wrong because they were meant literally.
I have snatched several NT rules and laws at random......... now you search out the hundreds........ HUNDREDS! ................
Treat servants (slaves) fairly, decently. Colossians 4:1
Banned from fornication and sexual lusts. ACTS 15:20,29 1 THESSALONIANS 4:2-3 1 PETER 2:11
Drunkeness is banned. 1 PETER 1:13 1 PETER 4:7 EPHESIANS 5:18
You may not muzzle cattle or oxen treading corn or harvesting 1 CORINTHIANS 9:9 1 TIMOTHY 5:18
You must obey all civil laws in your land. ROMANS 13:1
You are banned from adultery JAMES 2:11 MATTHEW 5:27-28 MATTHEW 19:18 LUKE 18:20 ROMANS 13:9
You are banned from killing anybody. JAMES 2:11 MATTHEW 5:21MATTHEW 19:18 MARK 10:19 LUKE 18:20 ROMANS 13:9
You must keep the ten Commandments MATTHEW 19:17 JOHN 14:15
You should not proselytise house to house. LUKE 10:7
Pay all taxes in your land. Romans 13:6
Pay all rates, fees, dues in your area. Romans 13;7
Spouses are required to satisfy each other sexually. 1 CORINTHIANS 7:4-5
Avoid strike actions for extra wages. Accept wages. LUKE 3:14
You must be patient with people. 1 THESSALONIANS 5:14 2 TIMOTHY 2:24
Do not Steal MATTHEW 19:18 MARK 10:19 LUKE 18:20 ROMANS 13:9
You are banned from perversion of the course of justice. Perjury. MATTHEW 19:18 MARK 10:19 LUKE 18:20 ROMANS 13:9
You are banned from envy or jealousy of any kind. ROMANS 13

 

[omega2xx]

I have been thinking about our exchanges, and the difference boils down to perhaps what some would call a "technicality". My education, training and work experience is in the law where precision is required. So, although the Torah is part of the obsolete first covenant, certainly keeping the big ten is in harmony with Christianity, and have been reiterated as part of "the Royal law" or the "law of Christ". Provided Christians recognize the changes. The sabbath command is problematic if you believe the ten commandment law is still in effect, if so, then the SDA's are absolutely correct, the sabbath must be kept by Christians as instructed in Exodus. So some Christians purposely break a law they believe they are under........... but of course, they are not.

Of course we must keep the Sabbath, but not as the SDA understand it. They are obsessed with attending a religious service on Saturday or you have broken the law. There is nothing in the Bible that specifies attending a religious service on any day o he week. I had a SDA tell me I was going to hell because I went to church on Sunday

With respect, you display a lack of understanding of both Christianity and OT Judaism.

In what way?

The division is not in the NT, it is in the OT. The dietary laws have been eliminated(Mk 7:19 & Acts 10:10-16). Without a priest, the ceremonial laws can't be kept Biblically.

Yes, the health laws were eliminated, and the system of atonement was fulfilled in Christ. But there are many of the 613 by your reckoning still in effect that you should be keeping. Thus, my comment that those Christians who want to be under the law of the Torah don't keep the law.

No one keeps the law perfectly. Christians continue to sin.

They want to apply the big ten only, then make rationalizations they don't want to keep the 4th commandment as the Torah specifically states they should. Either you keep the law of the first covenant as God said it should be kept, including the ten, or you keep the law of Christ, you can't have it both ways.

Sure we can. It the law is about moral conduct, we keep it, no matter what testament it is in.

 

[omega2xx]

Cherry picking means exactly what it means....... I'm not needing to refute anything, simply observing objectively.


You picked FIVE laws from the 613 in your attempts to show that they were spiritual...... you got 'em all wrong because they were meant literally.
I have snatched several NT rules and laws at random......... now you search out the hundreds........ HUNDREDS! ................
Treat servants (slaves) fairly, decently. Colossians 4:1
Banned from fornication and sexual lusts. ACTS 15:20,29 1 THESSALONIANS 4:2-3 1 PETER 2:11
Drunkeness is banned. 1 PETER 1:13 1 PETER 4:7 EPHESIANS 5:18
You may not muzzle cattle or oxen treading corn or harvesting 1 CORINTHIANS 9:9 1 TIMOTHY 5:18
You must obey all civil laws in your land. ROMANS 13:1
You are banned from adultery JAMES 2:11 MATTHEW 5:27-28 MATTHEW 19:18 LUKE 18:20 ROMANS 13:9
You are banned from killing anybody. JAMES 2:11 MATTHEW 5:21MATTHEW 19:18 MARK 10:19 LUKE 18:20 ROMANS 13:9
You must keep the ten Commandments MATTHEW 19:17 JOHN 14:15
You should not proselytise house to house. LUKE 10:7
Pay all taxes in your land. Romans 13:6
Pay all rates, fees, dues in your area. Romans 13;7
Spouses are required to satisfy each other sexually. 1 CORINTHIANS 7:4-5
Avoid strike actions for extra wages. Accept wages. LUKE 3:14
You must be patient with people. 1 THESSALONIANS 5:14 2 TIMOTHY 2:24
Do not Steal MATTHEW 19:18 MARK 10:19 LUKE 18:20 ROMANS 13:9
You are banned from perversion of the course of justice. Perjury. MATTHEW 19:18 MARK 10:19 LUKE 18:20 ROMANS 13:9
You are banned from envy or jealousy of any kind. ROMANS 13

I picked 5 as examples. There are others, however most laws, especially the moral laws are literal.

I am not going to quibble about how many laws are in the NT. I will try to follow all that are in it.

 

[shmogie]

Of course we must keep the Sabbath, but not as the SDA understand it. They are obsessed with attending a religious service on Saturday or you have broken the law. There is nothing in the Bible that specifies attending a religious service on any day o he week. I had a SDA tell me I was going to hell because I went to church on Sunday







In what way?

The division is not in the NT, it is in the OT. The dietary laws have been eliminated(Mk 7:19 & Acts 10:10-16). Without a priest, the ceremonial laws can't be kept Biblically.



No one keeps the law perfectly. Christians continue to sin.

Well the attitude shown to you by the SDA was dead wrong, and he or she will be accountable for it, God judges, no one else. Actually, SDA's do go to church on sat. but that isn't done to keep the sabbath. The rules God gave for keeping the sabbath is no work except in an emergency and rest. If you are going to keep the sabbath, this is how God said it had to be done.
I would suggest that sin is more than breaking the ten commandments. It is any act or mindset that drives a wedge between us and being right with God. Alcohol isn't proscribed in the big ten, but if you make drinking it the ultimate goal of your spare time, all the time, it becomes a sin. You are right though, any Christian church is a hospital for sinners, and not a museum of saints.


Sure we can. It the law is about moral conduct, we keep it, no matter what testament it is in.

 

[shmogie]

Cherry picking means exactly what it means....... I'm not needing to refute anything, simply observing objectively.


You picked FIVE laws from the 613 in your attempts to show that they were spiritual...... you got 'em all wrong because they were meant literally.
I have snatched several NT rules and laws at random......... now you search out the hundreds........ HUNDREDS! ................
Treat servants (slaves) fairly, decently. Colossians 4:1
Banned from fornication and sexual lusts. ACTS 15:20,29 1 THESSALONIANS 4:2-3 1 PETER 2:11
Drunkeness is banned. 1 PETER 1:13 1 PETER 4:7 EPHESIANS 5:18
You may not muzzle cattle or oxen treading corn or harvesting 1 CORINTHIANS 9:9 1 TIMOTHY 5:18
You must obey all civil laws in your land. ROMANS 13:1
You are banned from adultery JAMES 2:11 MATTHEW 5:27-28 MATTHEW 19:18 LUKE 18:20 ROMANS 13:9
You are banned from killing anybody. JAMES 2:11 MATTHEW 5:21MATTHEW 19:18 MARK 10:19 LUKE 18:20 ROMANS 13:9
You must keep the ten Commandments MATTHEW 19:17 JOHN 14:15
You should not proselytise house to house. LUKE 10:7
Pay all taxes in your land. Romans 13:6
Pay all rates, fees, dues in your area. Romans 13;7
Spouses are required to satisfy each other sexually. 1 CORINTHIANS 7:4-5
Avoid strike actions for extra wages. Accept wages. LUKE 3:14
You must be patient with people. 1 THESSALONIANS 5:14 2 TIMOTHY 2:24
Do not Steal MATTHEW 19:18 MARK 10:19 LUKE 18:20 ROMANS 13:9
You are banned from perversion of the course of justice. Perjury. MATTHEW 19:18 MARK 10:19 LUKE 18:20 ROMANS 13:9
You are banned from envy or jealousy of any kind. ROMANS 13

Yep

 

[oldbadger]

I picked 5 as examples. There are others, however most laws, especially the moral laws are literal.

They are all literal.
They would not have been of any use if they were not literal.

I am not going to quibble about how many laws are in the NT. I will try to follow all that are in it.

Well that's a better stand-point than before. At least you can accept that the NT is packed full of guides, rules and laws.

 

[omega2xx]

They are all literal.
They would not have been of any use if they were not literal.<<

Not true. Figurative language teaches spiritual truth and spiritual truths give us a better understanding of what God is trying to teach us. The Levitical laws teach us that man does not have to die for his sins, a substitute will be provided. This is the Basis for the doctrine of the substitutionary atonement of Christ.

Well that's a better stand-point than before. At least you can accept that the NT is packed full of guides, rules and laws.

One day I am going to learn that when I shoot from the hip, sometimes I forget to reload my pistol. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[oldbadger]

Not true. Figurative language teaches spiritual truth and spiritual truths give us a better understanding of what God is trying to teach us. The Levitical laws teach us that man does not have to die for his sins, a substitute will be provided. This is the Basis for the doctrine of the substitutionary atonement of Christ.

What is the defendant accused of?
Greed and Carelessness about the Rights of the Poor, yerhonner!
What is the case?
This greedy geezer 'ere reaped all his fields to their borders, includin' the corners, and took every last sheaf of corn possible. He muzzled his team of oxen so they couldn't eat while workin' an' when 'e realised 'ed left some 'arvest be'ind 'e turned 'is starvin' team ararnd to go back and get it all fer 'iself, yerhonner, thus bustin' a whole heap o' laws from Lev 19:9 ter Lev23:22 yerhonner. On top of all them bad fings yerhonner 'e was caught wiv dodgy weighing scales and even dodgier test weights yerhonner. Lev:19:35-36.... yerhonner.
The Defendant will Stand! What have you to say in your defence, you backslidin' law bustin' shady, dodgy geezer!?
Well your honour, when I got to reading these laws it caused me to wonder upon what God actually meant by them, and I got to meditating upon my salvation after death and the testimonies of the priophets and stuff like that. I nrever for one moment guessed that they might actually be laws which I have to keep because we have an organised and stable community, growing stronger each day because we keep together by their guidance and demands.
Guilty! Guilty!

 

[oldbadger]

Not true. Figurative language teaches spiritual truth and spiritual truths give us a better understanding of what God is trying to teach us. The Levitical laws teach us that man does not have to die for his sins, a substitute will be provided. This is the Basis for the doctrine of the substitutionary atonement of Christ.

Letr me have my fun!
Court scene:-
What is the defendant accused of?
Speeding your honour. He was driving at 115 mph in a 30 mph limit. He went across three road intersections against red lights and failed to drive on the correct side of thev road thus bouncing off four vehicles coming in the other direction.
Defendant! What have you to say in your defence??

Your honour, the Highway Code is simply there to teach us that man does not have to die for his sins, a substitute will be provided.

.........................Oh Dear Me!!!!

 

[roger1440]

Christians, which Old Testament Laws to obey, and which to ignore?
How were some O.T. laws dropped, and others kept?
A few Christians can be self-righteously judgemental about the lives, feelings, cultures, sexualities and beliefs of others.
Exactly what laws are within the New-Covenant, and which others 'repealed'?

and which to ignore?
I don’t go outside the camp, take a crap and bury it in a hole. But then again, I have indoor plumbing. There is one thing I have learned over the years. Be careful of the crap you send out into the world cause one day you just might step into it. (Deuteronomy 23:12-14)