Christians: Why Jesus had to die?

[Cypress]

The idea is that Jesus died on the cross to free us from our sins.
But why was that necessary?
When God wants to forgive sins why can't he just do it, since he is almighty?
Why must he send someone to earth to die?

 

[sandandfoam]

To my mind it's about selflessness, giving.

 

[idea]

Did this make sense to anyone?

Here's a little parable (well more than a parable, something that happened) that explains how it works - at least to me it explains it... ok so here is the story:

There was a boy fighting in the Union Forces. 19 years old. Went to sleep on guard duty. And the opposition broke through and wiped out a whole flank of the army. Several hundred were killed, including some of the best friends of this young man. But he survived. Court-martialed. Sentenced to die. He expected to die. He thought it was only just that he die. And president Lincoln was ready to sign his death warrant for his execution and a little mother appears on the scene.

She says, “President Lincoln, when this war started, I had a husband and six sons. First I lost my husband, and one by one I lost five of my sons. Now I only have one son left and he’s sentenced to be executed with a firing squad because he went to sleep. He feels awfully badly, he lost some of his best friends and he expects to die. President Lincoln, I’m not asking for the sparing of this boy’s life for his sake, but for his mother’s sake. He’s all I have left. For my sake could you spare him?” President Lincoln said, “For your sake, little mother, I will spare him.” And as far as I know President Lincoln was never criticized for that decision.

OK - so, why was Pres Lincoln never criticized? Why were the parents of all kids who were killed ok with letting this 19yo live? They were ok with it because the little mother had paid a price - that 19yo's life had been bought by the blood of his father/brothers. It's not about the 19yo anymore, or what he did. It is about the husband / brothers that died / little mother.

so, why won't anyone criticize God for letting ppl off the hook? same reason - a price has been paid. It is not about us anymore, it is about Jesus and what he did for us.

The idea is that Jesus died on the cross to free us from our sins.
But why was that necessary?
When God wants to forgive sins why can't he just do it, since he is almighty?
Why must he send someone to earth to die?

so, consider the same story as above, only this time - what would have happened if the little mother had not lost her husband/sons? If she had sacrificed nothing, there would be no "just" reason to let the 19yo off the hook. With the sacrifice, it was "just" to let the 19yo live. Do you see the difference? God has to uphold justice. - the sacrifice was the only way to have both justice and mercy.

 

[DreadFish]

The problem with the idea that God needed a sacrifice to forgive everyone is that God requires blood sacrifice so that a person can be forgiven, so a person kills an animal and they offer it to God and get forgiven. This is what was done before Jesus.

So now, under the idea that Jesus was God, and that God requires a blood sacrifice, it basically means that God incarnated and had himself offered up to himself so that everyone could be forgiven.
Under the idea that Jesus was the son of God, and God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son (to be a blood sacrifice to himself) then, it implies that God sent his son, had his son tortured and killed so that he could forgive everyone.

To me, these ideas sound clearly made by man. I agree with stephenw that its along the lines of selflessness on the part of Jesus.

 

[idea]

I'm LDS - I don't believe in the trinity.
I agree - "had himself offered up to himself "
as well as pray to himself
"not my will but my other will be done"

you have to take away the trinity for it to make sense.

 

[fallingblood]

Didn't see it was in the Christian DIR, so I'm deleting my post.

 

[Wandered Off]

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Please note that this thread is in the Christianity DIR, so only Christians may answer the question.

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[Cypress]

Idea, this story shows how human grace works, it requires justice.
Divine grace cannot have any requirements, it is free.

 

[idea]

One has to understand that the idea God sent Jesus to die did not evolve until after the fact. ...

beg to differ - all of the animal sacrifices in the OT were in prelude to the atonement. The OT is filled with prophecies about Jesus coming to earth and dieing.

Psalms - in the OT - written hundreds of years before Jesus showed up:

(Old Testament | Psalms 22:1)
1 MY God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?


ppl think Jesus came up with the above line all on his own - he didn't - he was quoting scripture - quoting the words of his grandfather David.

(Old Testament | Psalms 22:18)
18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

another example:
(Old Testament | Isaiah 53:3 - 12)
3 He is adespised and rejected of men; a man of bsorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we cesteemed him not.
4 ¶ Surely he hath aborne our bgriefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
5 But he was awounded for our btransgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his cstripes we are dhealed.
6 All we like asheep have gone bastray; we have turned every one to his cown way; and the LORD hath laid on him the diniquity of us all.
7 He was aoppressed, and he was bafflicted, yet he copened not his mouth: he is brought as a dlamb to the eslaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his ageneration? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the btransgression of my people was he stricken.
9 And he made his grave with the awicked, and with the rich in his bdeath; cbecause he had done no dviolence, neither was any edeceit in his mouth.
10 ¶ Yet it pleased the LORD to abruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an boffering for sin, he shall see his cseed, he shall prolong his days, and the dpleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his aknowledge shall my righteous bservant cjustify many; for he shall dbear their iniquities.
12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto adeath: and he was numbered with the btransgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made cintercession for the transgressors.



the idea was most definately there well before the fact.

 

[idea]

Idea, this story shows how human grace works, it requires justice.
Divine grace cannot have any requirements, it is free.

Grace is free for us - but it was not free for God. Jesus died - a great price was paid.

(Topical Guide | GGod, Justice of:Entry)
God, Justice of (see also Judgment; Justice; Respect; Respecter)
Deut. 32:4 God of truth ... just and right
Neh. 9:33 thou art just in all that is brought upon us
Ps. 89:14 J. and judgment are the habitation of thy throne
Isa. 9:7 establish it with judgment and with j.
Isa. 26:7 thou, most upright, dost weigh the path of the just
Isa. 45:21 a just God and a Saviour
Jer. 23:5 King shall ... execute judgment and j.
John 5:30 as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just
Rom. 2:11 (Gal. 2:6) no respect of persons with God
Rom. 3:26 that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth
Heb. 2:2 disobedience received a just recompence
2 Pet. 2:4 if God spared not the angels that sinned
1 Jn. 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive
Rev. 15:3 Lord God Almighty, just and true are thy ways

all of the above scriptures affirm that God is just, all of His ways are just, that he is a "just God", that He establishes everything in justice...

 

[ZooGirl02]

I don't fully understand why He had to die but the fact is, He did have to die. I don't know if we are all meant to understand why it had to happen but it did have to happen. There are lots of things about my faith that I don't fully understand but that's okay. I still have faith.

 

[Cypress]

Grace is free for us - but it was not free for God. Jesus died - a great price was paid.

Why should God have to pay a price to himself to grant us his grace?

 

[DreadFish]

Why should God have to pay a price to himself to grant us his grace?

Thats my problem with that belief too, "That God so loved the world"- he couldnt just forgive the world without having his son killed to please himself? . But this isnt a debate forum so I wont push it , we are here for information, not debate. I have been Christian for most of my life, so I dont think im out of line answering. Hopefully , heres a cigar for the mods anyway :cigar: lol

 

[idea]

Why should God have to pay a price to himself to grant us his grace?

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians6:20)
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.


(New Testament | 1 Corinthians7:23)
23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

We are bought with a price... because anything else would not be just. God upholds justice, justive demands a price.
there is either law,order / right, wrong / opposites love/hate/joy/pain
-or-
no law, no order, no right, no wrong, no love/hate/joy/pain.

Either there is justice / a price to pay / laws / order - or there is chaos.
Law and order are the only means whereby we can progress. If there is no good/bad/better/best/justice/injustice everything's the same - there is nothing to work towards, no progression.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[DreadFish]

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians6:20)
20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.


(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 7:23)
23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

We are bought with a price...

But that doesnt address the question properly I think. Who set the price? We can assume God did I suppose, so why does God have to pay himself the price?

I think that is the question.

 

[Nerthus]

I agree with it being selfless, and also it shows us that by trusting in Jesus we to can live after death - just as Jesus showed by raising after three days.

 

[idea]

But that doesnt address the question properly I think. Who set the price? We can assume God did I suppose, so why does God have to pay himself the price?

I think that is the question.

the price is set by the crime - eye for an eye.
God upholds justice. Those who are harmed unjustly need compensation.

someone steals from a candy store - do you just let them off the hook without making them pay a price? I hope not, the poor candy store owner would be out of business pretty fast!
someone gets drunk, drives, and kills someone. Do you let the drunk driver off the hook without a price? Say a mother dies. So, it's ok to just leave a family without their mother, grandparents without their daughter, husband without his wife, kids without their mom - just let the drunk driver go without a price?

A price has to be paid. The candy store owner has to be reimbursed for his losses. The family without a mom needs to get their mom back.

 

[idea]

But that doesnt address the question properly I think. Who set the price? We can assume God did I suppose, so why does God have to pay himself the price?

I think that is the question.

God gave His Son, not Himself... (There are many trinity threads - let's not start that up again) just as a thought experiment - consider that God and Jesus are not the same being, that they are two separate people - that Jesus is God's Son - and not God?

edit - trinity thread http://www.religiousforums.com/foru...698-do-you-believe-trinity-6.html#post2087822


When they are two separate people - then it works out.

There was a boy fighting in the Union Forces. 19 years old. Went to sleep on guard duty. And the opposition broke through and wiped out a whole flank of the army. Several hundred were killed, including some of the best friends of this young man. But he survived. Court-martialed. Sentenced to die. He expected to die. He thought it was only just that he die. And president Lincoln was ready to sign his death warrant for his execution and a little mother appears on the scene.

She says, “President Lincoln, when this war started, I had a husband and six sons. First I lost my husband, and one by one I lost five of my sons. Now I only have one son left and he’s sentenced to be executed with a firing squad because he went to sleep. He feels awfully badly, he lost some of his best friends and he expects to die. President Lincoln, I’m not asking for the sparing of this boy’s life for his sake, but for his mother’s sake. He’s all I have left. For my sake could you spare him?” President Lincoln said, “For your sake, little mother, I will spare him.” And as far as I know President Lincoln was never criticized for that decision.

It was just for pres Lincoln to give the little mother her 19yo son back because she paid a price.
It is just for Heavenly Father to get His spirit children (us) back, because He paid a price..

 

[DreadFish]

the price is set by the crime - eye for an eye.
God upholds justice.

someone steals from a candy store - do you just let them off the hook without making them pay a price? I hope not, the poor candy store owner would be out of business pretty fast!
someone gets drunk, drives, and kills someone. Do you let the drunk driver off the hook without a price? Say a mother dies. So, it's ok to just leave a family without their mother, grandparents without their daughter, husband without his wife, kids without their mom - just let the drunk driver go without a price?

A price has to be paid. The candy store owner has to be reimbursed for his losses. The family without a mom needs to get their mom back.

I should probably refrain from discussing this further for the sake of avoiding debate lol, but I just wanted to point out that Jesus refuted the idea of an eye for an eye.

Maybe we can start a thread about this in a debate forum as Im sure we could discuss this on and on, but this isnt the place . I cant make a thread at the moment though, as I need to go unpack things for a garage sale.

Peace

 

[DreadFish]

God gave His Son, not Himself... (There are many trinity threads - let's not start that up again) just as a thought experiment - consider that God and Jesus are not the same being, that they are two separate people - that Jesus is God's Son - and not God?

When they are two separate people - then it works out.

But I would also point out, that means that God sent his son to pay the ransom that He set in the first place.