Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
Sounds like you believe in a literal Adam and Eve, in my book that would put you whole chain of reasoning. In doubt...
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Clarifications on Christianity
- Thread starter sherifgg
- Start date
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- christianity islam mary trinity
Sounds like you believe in a literal Adam and Eve, in my book that would put you whole chain of reasoning. In doubt...
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
John 1:1 Greek Text Analysis
Actually "pros ton Theon" means "with (the) God". (ton = definite article, ton Theon = Accusative of ho Theos).
θεός - Wiktionary
In the next part we have "Theos en ho Logos". It means "The Word was God." Here Theos is without definite article (only Logos is with "ho") because the sentence tells us something about Logos - that God is it's nature.
https://www.psephizo.com/biblical-studies/does-john-1-1-mean-the-word-was-a-god/
Regarding Jesus praying. Theology would explain it this way: one person is praying to another - Father and Son are not the same but they are both God (both are the same essence - "homoousios").
BrightShadow
Active Member
Jesus never spoke Greek. So when some anonymous writer decided to write about Jesus in ancient Greek language decades after Jesus was gone - it is fair to say that the message already got distorted by that initial translation and then when you retranslate that into English then the verses went through more misrepresentations. There is no way to retain the original message in that way. Other than unintentional misapprehension due to limitations that exists in different language to express something - intentional distortions also took place and even OT warns about that...
[Jeremiah 8:8]
That is why one should use common sense before adopting any particular meaning of a verse IMO.
First of all - two different spelling is used in the original text [John 1:1] for the word "God". So why both have capital G in front of them? One is supposed to be "God" and the other "god" or "godly person". Furthermore - the original Greek text didn't have a definite article in front of god in the last part of that verse. Question is why not? So, this is how the confusion starts! One can say the "word" was "a god" and one can say the "word" was "the god"!
Anyhow - what about the "word" was with "God"? How one was with one and both still same one god and not two gods? At the least it should imply them as two gods.
Homoousios or Homoiousios?
Same substance or similar substance?
All organisms are from carbon-based molecules yet there are not one organism!
A child is born from the same substance from mother and father but it doesn't mean child is mother or father! The child is another entity. An independent existence! So it is a flawed concept. In my opinion it is just a desperate attempt to keep the monotheistic concept alive so that it doesn't conflict with OT's main teachings.
[Isaiah 45:5] I am the Lord, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me.
Since it is impossible to understand the original author's mind frame and know his background and his true intentions and the fact that it seems he is on a slightly different track from the other writers - the intended meaning of [John 1:1] in my opinion could easily be as follows....
In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was a god. In other words - just a godly person! That's is what Jesus really was IMO.
Praise Jah
Psalm 83:18
Jehovah God himself identified Jesus as his Son. Jehovah always tells the truth. Jehovah cannot lie. (Matthew 3:17) (Luke 9:35) (Titus 1:2)
The Bible teaches that Jehovah is Almighty God and the Creator of all things. As such, Jehovah is the only one to be worshipped. (Isaiah 42:8) (Revelation 4:11)
Jesus worshipped his God and Father, Jehovah. Jesus never taught that he himself be worshipped. Instead, Jesus taught that only Jehovah God was to be worshipped. Jesus knew that Jehovah is the only true God, the Almighty, the Creator. (John 20:17) (Luke 4:8) (Isaiah 45:18)
firedragon
Veteran Member
It is actually not "non-christian documents". If you are referring to the Talmud, then its true. But if you are referring to the Greek sources, there are none. It is only assumed so because Origen wrote about it. Which means you are directly putting your faith in Christian sources and Jewish sources.
So in fact, both of these documents are far away from the time of Jesus. Origen is a third party who quoted Celsus who lived in the 2nd century. If we assume or guess that Jesus Ben Panthera is the same Jesus mentioned in the New Testament, it is still to far away from him to make it your primary historical document. Miryam and Jesus were such common names. It could very well be referring to Jesus Barabbas because we are guessing. But it could be referring to Jesus, the brother of James, son of Mary, the Nazarene. No worries. Authenticity, you should question without putting your faith in it so easily.
Peace.
firedragon
Veteran Member
How did you assume theos means God? Without Ho or Ton, how does theos mean "God"? It does not mean "God is the nature of Logos". It means "Divine is the nature of Logos".
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
Agree. I just wanted to show how Trinitarian theology interprets it. More detailed explanations and arguments are in the links I provided.
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
Because theos is a noun. Divine (an adjective) would be theios or theikos.
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
Miracles don’t prove fact. Only the facts do. Liars can do neat stuff too.
Kelly of the Phoenix
Well-Known Member
I’m honestly not a fan of rehiring someone who doesn’t do the job right the first time.
Every masterpiece takes time... when he comes back to reign, it will still be "the first time" - just the back end of the first time... finishing touches, so to speak.
He always finished the job
22 And he cometh toBethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him totouch him.
23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought.
24 And he looked up, and said*, I see men as* trees, walking.
25 After that he put his hands again uponhis eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.
Muffled
Jesus in me
I believe there is no evidence of any sort for your belief and there is that God did it. I care about you so I do not wish for you to be in langour when you have the ability to be rational and come to the truth.
The tombstone of Jesus's dad as mentioned by Celsius and in the Talmud. Evidence enough for me
Brian2
Veteran Member
Mary knew that Jesus was special because of all the things that had happened to her. Angel Gabriel, virgin birth, what Elizabeth and the holy people at the Temple said about the child Jesus and the wise men from the east who gave them gifts and the wisdom of Jesus at the temple when He spoke to the teachers when He was 12 years old.
The true church with the teachings and scriptures that had been passed down had to clarify the teachings because of heresies that were coming into the church more strongly. We have the same scriptures and can see they were correct in saying that Jesus is the Son of God sent from God to die for the salvation the world.
Islam says Jesus is not God's Son even though God was the Father of Jesus through Mary and the Messiah in the Hebrew Scriptures is the Son of God.
Islam says that Jesus did not die on the cross when history tells us that is what happened.
Islam honours Jesus as man, a prophet but ignores the Hebrew and Christian scriptures which tell of the Messiah being a man but the Son of God who was sent for the purpose of dying for sin and to end the Mosaic Covenant and bring in a new one that will last for ever through His death and subsequent resurrection, as the Hebrew scriptures prophesied.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
This is not true. There is nothing in the Tanakh (OT) indicating the messiah is "the son of God" and certainly not the "only begotten" son of God.
Brian2
Veteran Member
This looks like the Messiah to me and I think Rabbis in the past have agreed.
It certainly goes way past the pay grade for King David or any other King of Israel.
Psalm 2: 6 “As for me, I have set my King
on Zion, my holy hill.”
7 I will tell of the decree:
The Lord said to me, “You are my Son;
today I have begotten you.
8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
the ends of the earth your possession.
9 You shall break them with a rod of iron
and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.”
10 Now therefore, O kings, be wise;
be warned, O rulers of the earth.
11 Serve the Lord with fear,
and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son,
lest he be angry, and you perish in the way,
for his wrath is quickly kindled.
Blessed are all who take refuge in him.
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
This psalm is about David, not the messiah.
Brian2
Veteran Member
I thought you might say that, but as I say, it is about more than David however and that can be see by what it says, just as Isa 9:6 is about more that Hezekiah and that can be seen from what it says. David and other Kings of Judah and Israel are a type of the Messiah, especially David, and that is why it is said that David will rule over everyone in the age to come and why it is said that David was rejected by the Jews and killed.
Israel also is called the son of God and His firstborn, and it also is a type of the Messiah and is where the Messiah came from, as an Israelite. He is the one who brings Jacob back and is a light for the world and salvation for the gentiles.
But you're a Jew and so I don't expect you to see these things when you have been taught Jesus is a phony and did not rise from the dead.
Ezek 37:23................ Then they will be My people, and I will be their God. 24My servant David will be king over them, and there will be one shepherd for all of them. They will follow My ordinances and keep and observe My statutes. 25They will live in the land that I gave to My servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They will live there forever with their children and grandchildren, and My servant David will be their prince forever.…
Ps 89:.........But you have rejected, you have spurned,
you have been very angry with your anointed one.
39 You have renounced the covenant with your servant
and have defiled his crown in the dust.
40 You have broken through all his walls
and reduced his strongholds to ruins.
41 All who pass by have plundered him;
he has become the scorn of his neighbors.
42 You have exalted the right hand of his foes;
you have made all his enemies rejoice.
43 Indeed, you have turned back the edge of his sword
and have not supported him in battle.
44 You have put an end to his splendor
and cast his throne to the ground.
45 You have cut short the days of his youth;
you have covered him with a mantle of shame.
Isa 49:1Listen to me, you islands;
hear this, you distant nations:
Before I was born the Lord called me;
from my mother’s womb he has spoken my name.
2 He made my mouth like a sharpened sword,
in the shadow of his hand he hid me;
he made me into a polished arrow
and concealed me in his quiver.
3 He said to me, “You are my servant,
Israel, in whom I will display my splendor.”
4 But I said, “I have labored in vain;
I have spent my strength for nothing at all.
Yet what is due me is in the Lord’s hand,
and my reward is with my God.”
5 And now the Lord says—
he who formed me in the womb to be his servant
to bring Jacob back to him
and gather Israel to himself,
for I am honored in the eyes of the Lord
and my God has been my strength—
6 he says:
“It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”
7 This is what the Lord says—
the Redeemer and Holy One of Israel—
to him who was despised and abhorred by the nation,
to the servant of rulers:
“Kings will see you and stand up,
princes will see and bow down,
because of the Lord, who is faithful,
the Holy One of Israel, who has chosen you.”
8 This is what the Lord says:
“In the time of my favor I will answer you,
and in the day of salvation I will help you;
I will keep you and will make you
to be a covenant for the people,
to restore the land
and to reassign its desolate inheritances,
9 to say to the captives, ‘Come out,’
and to those in darkness, ‘Be free!’
IndigoChild5559
Loving God and my neighbor as myself.
It bugs me when Christians do this, and it bugs me more when they realize they are doing it, but do it anyhow. Seeing "something more" in the text than what is plainly there is a big like seeing bunny rabbits and castles in the clouds.