Clear Challenges to the Trinity Doctrine

[Hockeycowboy]

thanks for that superb and thoughtful reply

i didn’t realize you were JW

it is quite likely that I see some of the same things you do in Revelation

i know I don’t see revelation the same as the catholic or most protestant churches.

You’re welcome. And thank you.

Yes, I’ve been a JW since the ‘80’s.

If you’d ever like to discuss some topics, let me know!

 

[Hockeycowboy]

the religious Jews of Jesus' day......considered it blasphemy to call God their father, because they perceived that to mean they were equal with God (John. 5:17-18).

Hold on, trailblazer....

Read John 8:41
John 8:41 You are doing the works of your father." "We are not illegitimate children," they declared. "Our only Father is God Himself."

(Their thinking was twisted, and inconsistent.)

 

[Clear]

Hi @Jeremiah Ames (and @Hockeycowboy)

indeed

you point out the burden that comes with greater understanding

luke 12:48 ….. “For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required”……..

adding this:

john 9:41 even shows that the blind person is considered sinless:

“Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.”

Pretty powerful. No sin.

but those who claim to see, have a problem

Hi @Jeremiah Ames (and @Hockeycowboy)

I hate to disrupt @tigger2s thread because I think his points are very interesting but I also think your point about the principle of degree of knowledge and understanding inherent in moral judgement is a profound principle as well.


THE ANCIENT CHRISTIAN CONCEPT THAT THE DEGREE OF CONDEMNATION AND REWARD ARE ASSOCIATED WITH THE DEGREE OF KNOWLEDGE AND UNDERSTANDING.

God MUST give man sufficient knowledge and understanding of good and evil if he is to retain justice in the rewards and punishments God renders.
A just God cannot condemn any individual for not obeying a moral law the person is truly ignorant of and truly does not understand.

I like your reference to luke 12:48 ….. “For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required”……..

The unspoken but other side of this principle is that unto whomsoever little is given, of him shall be little required.
This principle is almost like a “religious relativity” that allows condemnation and punishment to make sense in the same way that Einsteins theory of “relativity” allows a new concept of coordination of physical laws to make sense.

I like the ancient doctrine that we are only condemned to the degree that we reject knowledge which is given to us.
If there is no knowledge given, then there is no condemnation.
If there is a little light and knowledge given, and it is rejected, then there is a little condemnation.
Greater condemnation is expressed succinctly in the religious saying “where much is given, much is required.”.

This principle also applies to Luke 23:24 "Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."
The principle of forgiveness and mercy seems to retain this same connection to degree of knowledge in this statement Jesus made regarding the guards who crucified him.

In this model described in early Christian literature, Johns explanation of condemnation (in 3:19) makes sense : "And this is the condemnation, that light [knowledge] is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

IF moral light is given to them, and IF they understand and know it IS moral truth, and IF they then reject that knowledge; THEN there is a degree of condemnation to the degree that moral knowledge and moral understanding is rejected and abused.
This places both reward and condemnation into a different and more just and fair context.

This principle is underlies the explanation given to the Prophet Baruch where he is told : “It is true that man would not have understood my judgment if he had not received the law and if he were not instructed with understanding. But now, because he trespassed, having understanding, he will be punished because he has understanding. And with regard to the righteous ones, those whom you said the world has come on their account, yes, also that which is coming is on their account. For this world is to them a struggle and an effort with much trouble. And that according which will come, a crown with great glory.” Baruch 2 15:1 and 5-7;


I like the early Christian concept that none are condemned without having knowledge and understanding.

Clear
ακσιακω

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Sorry, on my Gospel, I couldn’t find John 17:126.
And do you mean that Jesus couldn’t tell me all what a spiritual person may to need to know about himself and the real world?
In other words, do you mean that, for some reason, Jesus had to be imperfect in his teachings, so He needed some men to complete his message (as in the case of Revelation for example)?

Oops! Thank you for bringing that oops to my attention.
Should read John 17:26 besides John 17:6, sorry for any inconvenience.
No, Jesus was perfect in his teaching just as he perfectly answered in his reply at John 10:36 as to who he is.
I find his complete message as in the case of Revelation to be a happy climax as found at Revelation 22:2.
Bible writers (God's secretaries) are the men God used to complete His message.
I like that Ezekiel's Chariot (Ezekiel 1:15-21) is on the move, and so is the rider on the white horse (Jesus) on the move as described at Revelation 19:11-15. On the move to fulfill Psalms 72:8; Psalms 72:12-14 for humanity.
I am wondering if there is any particular message about Revelation that you want to share ____________

 

[Jeremiah Ames]

You’re welcome. And thank you.

Yes, I’ve been a JW since the ‘80’s.

If you’d ever like to discuss some topics, let me know!

will do

i am sure it would be enjoyable

 

[KerimF]

Oops! Thank you for bringing that oops to my attention.
Should read John 17:26 besides John 17:6, sorry for any inconvenience.

I also do such typo once a while.
But I couldn't relate these two verses with what you wrote: "Any thoughts about Jesus' prayer found at... John 17:26, 17:6"

No, Jesus was perfect in his teaching just as he perfectly answered in his reply at John 10:36 as to who he is.
I find his complete message as in the case of Revelation to be a happy climax as found at Revelation 22:2.
Bible writers (God's secretaries) are the men God used to complete His message.
I like that Ezekiel's Chariot (Ezekiel 1:15-21) is on the move, and so is the rider on the white horse (Jesus) on the move as described at Revelation 19:11-15. On the move to fulfill Psalms 72:8; Psalms 72:12-14 for humanity.
I am wondering if there is any particular message about Revelation that you want to share ____________

Sorry, I am not a formal/typical Christian because I got all what I need to know about the purpose for which I was brought into this time/space realm and about the 'real' world in which my living flesh lives temporarily, from Jesus only (as presented on the today's Gospel) .

By the way, I wonder if you really see in the expression 'son of desert' that 'desert' should be 'a father' for that son.
And I wonder if you really see ‘sin’ as 'the father' of someone who may be called 'son of sin'.

On my side, I understand the previous 2 words of 'son' as 'coming from desert' and 'being the fruit of something wrong'.

So when I heard Jesus saying: "I am Son of God", I knew he doesn't mean that God has to be His Father. Jesus simply means that He came from God. Obviously, He didn't say: "I came from God" instead because this will mean clearly that he refers to the other being in Heaven as being God.

Now, you wonder: "What could the word God mean then, as revealed by Jesus?".

In brief, my God is the Resultant One Will of the Father in Heaven and Jesus who are unified, since before Creation, by the Spiritual Love, the Holy Spirit.
And having ‘One Will’, they both look to any outsider as if they were One Being (God) not two. For instance this union could happen even on earth whenever there are two humans who do love/trust each other really; after being joined by what we may also call the ‘spirit of real friendship’.
Please note that I was banned from Catechism (about 5 decades ago) for telling my students this image of God. (It seems that this image of God is a serious blasphemy in today’s Christianity, not only in Islam and Judaism).

This is why I understand 'Son of God' as 'Coming directly from God's Will' and it could be expressed too as 'Being the Living Word of God's Will' or simply ‘the Living Word of God’ on earth.

Please note that this is just me and Jesus.
I have no intention, at all, to disturb, in any way, what you used believing.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

............But I couldn't relate these two verses with what you wrote: "Any thoughts about Jesus' prayer found at... John 17:26, 17:6"
Sorry, I am not a formal/typical Christian because I got all what I need to know about the purpose for which I was brought into this time/space realm and about the 'real' world in which my living flesh lives temporarily, from Jesus only (as presented on the today's Gospel) ............
So when I heard Jesus saying: "I am Son of God", I knew he doesn't mean that God has to be His Father. Jesus simply means that He came from God. Obviously, He didn't say: "I came from God" instead because this will mean clearly that he refers to the other being in Heaven as being God.
Now, you wonder: "What could the word God mean then, as revealed by Jesus?".
In brief, my God is the Resultant One Will of the Father in Heaven and Jesus who are unified, since before Creation, by the Spiritual Love, the Holy Spirit.......................

What emphasis I wanted to use at John 17:6 and John 17:26 is about Jesus declaring his God's name.
The ' Tetragrammaton ' (YHWH) stands for God's personal name.
Yes, since Adam's downfall all of us, 'our living flesh lives temporarily'. Everything in this system is temporary.
Jesus reassures us that that 'there will be a resurrection' - Revelation 1:18. - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
So, what is now temporary life can become ' everlasting life ' aka permanent life because of the resurrection.
Life for some to heaven, but for the majority life to be 'eternal life' on Earth.
Because pre-human Jesus is first born of all creation (Colossians 1:15 B) he could Not be unified since 'before' creation.
Before creation we find that God is from everlasting (Psalms 90:2) meaning God had No beginning.
Whereas, pre-human heavenly Jesus was ' IN ' the beginning but Not ' before ' the beginning as his God was.

 

[KerimF]

What emphasis I wanted to use at John 17:6 and John 17:26 is about Jesus declaring his God's name.
The ' Tetragrammaton ' (YHWH) stands for God's personal name.
Yes, since Adam's downfall all of us, 'our living flesh lives temporarily'. Everything in this system is temporary.
Jesus reassures us that that 'there will be a resurrection' - Revelation 1:18. - Acts of the Apostles 24:15
So, what is now temporary life can become ' everlasting life ' aka permanent life because of the resurrection.
Life for some to heaven, but for the majority life to be 'eternal life' on Earth.
Because pre-human Jesus is first born of all creation (Colossians 1:15 B) he could Not be unified since 'before' creation.
Before creation we find that God is from everlasting (Psalms 90:2) meaning God had No beginning.
Whereas, pre-human heavenly Jesus was ' IN ' the beginning but Not ' before ' the beginning as his God was.

Muslims and Jews are supposed to believe that humans are created just to worship their Creator (Allah or Moses' God); as Pagans do. Their only differences are about how worshiping should be done (by obeying certain rules and observing certain rituals).

Jesus message focus on Love, not Worship. This is why Jesus says:
"I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine".
and
"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

He refers to those who will be able to perceive the huge difference between Love and Worship, and how Loving God (Trusting fully the God's One Will of Love) is much harder (even impossible to many) than worshiping, praising and obeying an Imaginary/Supernatural One-Being Selfish Powerful King/Judge (as Allah... etc).

My point is that you can be sure that the great majority in the world, theists and atheists, agrees with you that God has to be just One-Being and has to play the Supreme Judge on his creatures. And, now you know why such an image of 'God has to be rejected by (be non-existent to) a good wise atheist.

 

[Muffled]

I believe your premise is wrong which is why your conclusion is wrong. God is not three persons; He is in three persons.

 

[Muffled]

Star Trek would win in a battle against star wars. This is what discussions like this sound like to the atheist. We have this deity whose qualities are unknown, who's very existence remains unproven, guided only by contradictory and cryptic holy scriptures written thousands of years ago, yet we want to debate about it s characteristics.

I believe the difference is that Star Wars and Star Trek are fictional. The Bible is not fiction; It is the word of God.

 

[Muffled]

There ya go. In a nutshell.

I believe you got the nut part right and maybe playing a shell game as well.

 

[Trailblazer]

Muslims and Jews are supposed to believe that humans are created just to worship their Creator (Allah or Moses' God); as Pagans do. Their only differences are about how worshiping should be done (by obeying certain rules and observing certain rituals).

Jesus message focus on Love, not Worship.

Showing results for what does jesus say about worshiping god

According to my dictionary, worship is “the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity”. ... The word was used by the devil when asking Jesus to worship him, and also by Jesus in his reply “You will worship the Lord your God and serve him alone.” (Luke 4:7-8).

What did Jesus say about worship?
https://followtheteachingsofjesus.com › articles › church

People also ask
What did Jesus said about worship?

First, Jesus' Sermon on the Mount is filled with lessons about worship: God blesses worshippers (Matt 5:3-12), Worshippers are salt and light to the world ( Matt 5:13-16), Worshippers must obey God's commands (Matt 5:17-20), Anger and worship (5:21-26), Thoughts matter (5:27-30), Promises (Matt 5:33-37), Always act ...Sep 9, 2008

What Did Jesus Teach About Worship? | PraiseCharts

 

[KerimF]

Showing results for what does jesus say about worshiping god

I will comment the direct references you gave.

According to my dictionary, worship is “the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity”. ... The word was used by the devil when asking Jesus to worship him, and also by Jesus in his reply “You will worship the Lord your God and serve him alone.” (Luke 4:7-8).

Indeed, the devil and who are created to be its followers (who have a living flesh only) have no choice but to worship their Creator by serving its world (thanks to the pre-programmed instincts that guide them how to achieve their various missions). After all, the devil is selfish by definition and cannot be related to the spiritual love in any way.

First, Jesus' Sermon on the Mount is filled with lessons about worship: God blesses worshippers (Matt 5:3-37)

Sorry, on my Arabic and English Gospels, the word 'worshipper(s)' doesn't exist in these verses.

By the way, worship is a one-way relation. The devil and its followers have to worship/serve their Creator, but God doesn't worship any of His creatures.

On the other hand, Love is a two-way relationship. A spiritual person can love/trust God while God loves him as well.

 

[Trailblazer]

By the way, worship is a one-way relation. The devil and its followers have to worship/serve their Creator, but God doesn't worship any of His creatures.

That's true, worship is a one-way relationship, but why would a God who is so far above His creatures worship them? That would make no sense at all. What is worship anyway? It is reverence and respect for the One that is greater than you.

On the other hand, Love is a two-way relationship. A spiritual person can love/trust God while God loves him as well.

That is wishful thinking because you have no proof that God loves anyone back. Show me any proof that God loves anyone? If you have no proof that means it is just a belief. People can pick and choose what they believe.

 

[KerimF]

That is wishful thinking because you have no proof that God loves anyone back. Show me any proof that God loves anyone? If you have no proof that means it is just a belief. People can pick and choose what they believe.

Are you serious? Love is a personal matter even the 'chemical' one

So, if... I say if... you discovered that someone loves you as he loves himself, do you really need to prove his love to anyone else?
And if you find out that no one is ready to believe what you say about his love, do you reject it as well?

You feel very well while you worship God. I also feel very well while I just trust God's Love.
Where is the problem?!

 

[Trailblazer]

Are you serious? Love is a personal matter even the 'chemical' one

So, if... I say if... you discovered that someone loves you as he loves himself, do you really need to prove his love to anyone else?
And if you find out that no one is ready to believe what you say about his love, do you reject it as well?

I am not suggesting that you do that. You are free to believe that God loves you if you want to. Jesus said in the Bible that He loves you but Jesus also says that God loves you.

For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting. ... For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:16 - Wikipedia

Personally, I do not see any evidence that God loves anyone, so I have to reason to believe it except that it is written in scriptures. Maybe Jesus loved everyone, but that does not help much since Jesus does not hold the power, God does. I cannot believe that a God that loves His creation created it so that people and animals will suffer. Some human suffering is caused by humans who make poor moral choices but certainly not all of suffering is caused by humans free will decisions. None of the suffering of animals is caused by free will choices because animals have no free will to make moral choices. Human suffering has the potential to help people grow spiritually, but what benefit accrues to an animal that suffers? God did not have to create a world in which animals would suffer, so the only logical conclusion I can come to is that God does not care if animals suffer. Sorry, I cannot love a God that only cares about humans, if even that.

You feel very well while you worship God. I also feel very well while I just trust God's Love.
Where is the problem?!

There is no problem, but it seems rather odd to me that you trust God's love but don't want to worship God.

I don't worship God because I don't trust Gods' love, so I have a reason, and I'd be a hypocrite to worship Him just because that is what I am told to do in the scriptures. But in spite of that I know that worshiping God is in everyone's best interest, myself included, because that is what the Bible and the Qur'an and the Writings of Baha'u'llah say. I'd have to be very arrogant to believe I know more than all those scriptures.

 

[YoursTrue]

Where is homosexuality mentioned here? Sodomy and homosexuality are not the same thing. In fact, the original Greek doesn’t even mention the word “sodomy.”

It doesn't mention the word sodomy, but it does mention (I write out the Greek in English characters) -- arsenokoitai. What do you think that means?

 

[YoursTrue]

I’m not referring to a translation. I’m referring to the Greek text. Translations are inaccurate in many cases. This is one of them. the Greek word cannot mean “homosexuality” since the concept did not exist when the texts were written. The Greek word only refers to an act which may — or may not — be homosexual in nature.

OK, I write this again for reference. The text in Greek there uses the word arsenokoitai. What do you think that means? Also, immorality is mentioned, and not to go into detail with you, but what do you think immorality means? Maybe you think that is not mentioned also in the Bible?

 

[KerimF]

I am not suggesting that you do that. You are free to believe that God loves you if you want to. Jesus said in the Bible that He loves you but Jesus also says that God loves you.

For God so loved the world, as to give his only begotten Son; that whosoever believeth in him, may not perish, but may have life everlasting. ... For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:16 - Wikipedia

Sorry, although you are a nice intelligent person, it doesn't imply that you perceive life as I do.
Let us review what we, you and I, keep repeating.

To you, God has to be a One-Being.
To me, God is the One Will of Two Independent Beings joined by Love (spiritual).

To you, Son of God means that the non-incarnated Being whom Jesus refers to as the/his/our/my Father in Heaven has to be God.
To me, Son of God means that Jesus came directly from God's Realm of Love (Heaven) as 'son of desert' means he came from desert in which he used living. Jesus came to give His spiritual creatures all what they need to know about their own existence and the material world in which their given living flesh will exist temporarily. By this crucial knowledge, it becomes possible for some humans to let their fresh spiritual nature to survive in God's Realm of Love on earth and in Heaven later.

Personally, I do not see any evidence that God loves anyone, so I have to reason to believe it except that it is written in scriptures. Maybe Jesus loved everyone, but that does not help much since Jesus does not hold the power, God does. I cannot believe that a God that loves His creation created it so that people and animals will suffer. Some human suffering is caused by humans who make poor moral choices but certainly not all of suffering is caused by humans free will decisions. None of the suffering of animals is caused by free will choices because animals have no free will to make moral choices. Human suffering has the potential to help people grow spiritually, but what benefit accrues to an animal that suffers? God did not have to create a world in which animals would suffer, so the only logical conclusion I can come to is that God does not care if animals suffer. Sorry, I cannot love a God that only cares about humans, if even that.

I am afraid you believe that you have a spiritual nature just because you read it on certain books, said holy.
Actually, you perceive and analyze all things in your life thru a material nature only, like seeing the suffering of fleshes (of humans or else) as wrong or bad. It seems you didn't notice yet that if our body is not designed to feel various sorts of pain anytime something wrong happens to it, a human born baby won’t have the chance to stay alive and be an adult.

There is no problem, but it seems rather odd to me that you trust God's love but don't want to worship God.

Even in the material world it is not odd.
Let us suppose you are a powerful king (a great Caesar) and you are sure that someone has full trust in whatever you did and do, do you ask him to also worship and praise you as your followers and slaves should do?

I don't worship God because I don't trust Gods' love, so I have a reason, and I'd be a hypocrite to worship Him just because that is what I am told to do in the scriptures. But in spite of that I know that worshiping God is in everyone's best interest, myself included, because that is what the Bible and the Qur'an and the Writings of Baha'u'llah say. I'd have to be very arrogant to believe I know more than all those scriptures.

Sorry but I didn’t know that Galileo was very arrogant for believing he knew more/better than all teachings, religious and scientific, at his time. In other words, one’s knowledge, based on one’s observations and logical reasoning, has nothing to do with arrogance but self-trust. But, you are right too. In any formal ruling system (religious or political) an ordinary person is not supposed to have self-trust but to believe whoever run his system may say and approve as being real and/or true.
Therefore, it is not wrong or bad, at all, if one feels a real need to be guided by some others.

We like it or not, nothing can change reality. For example, although all people were born as human babies, they are not created to be alike while each of them is very important to life in some respects.

 

[sojourner]

It doesn't mention the word sodomy, but it does mention (I write out the Greek in English characters) -- arsenokoitai. What do you think that means?

It literally translates to “male-“bed.” It patently does not mean “homosexual.” It says nothing about an orientation. It only refers to an act, which may or may not have anything to do with same-sex orientation. Other uses in ancient literature of the term usually refer to prostitution. One need not be homosexual in order to have sex with other men. The term more likely refers to male prostitution, and not to one’s orientation. You’re making an assumption not supported by the facts.