Common traits among gods

[Sir Doom]

I had a thought that we often approach god from the top down (at least I often do), and attempt to explain how it could have created the universe, for example.

So, I thought about coming from the other direction. What is the least amount of power (read as: control of the universe) that a being could have and still qualify as at least a god if not the god or both?

Basically, the minimum requirements for the status of god. I thought a good place to start is to try and compare all gods I'm currently aware of and find the traits that only ALL of them possess. I know every god in every religion is slightly different if not drastically different so this is an imperfect process, no doubt. I hope I can enlist your help in nailing a few things down!

So far I can only think of a couple that seem to be a natural part of all gods great and small that I can think of (off the top of my head with limited knowledge of many religions):

Immortality (to varying degrees)
Some hand in creation of humans

Not a big list really, but I can't think of any god or gods that are missing these two traits.

Anyway, if people think something should be added lets discuss it and get it up there, or if people think something should be taken down, likewise.

 

[Madhuri]

I think that a god is one that is the spirit or soul of some aspect of nature. A god is the personification of that element or law or thing...

 

[Shuddhasattva]

Let me suggest a reverse-teleological approach:

What is the absolute possible result of biological consciousness? To me, that seems to be:

Omniscience
Omnipresence
Omnipotence, if not in this universe, than in subsequent simulated ones.

And then assume it already exists.

 

[Sir Doom]

I think that a god is one that is the spirit or soul of some aspect of nature. A god is the personification of that element or law or thing...

There are certainly many gods that fit this trait, but I wonder about more all-encompassing types of gods. I suppose we can say that some of these would be personifications of all or of the universe itself, etc. But some do not seem to manifest as beings at all. I'm not sure if they would fit this trait.

 

[Sir Doom]

Let me suggest a reverse-teleological approach:

What is the absolute possible result of biological consciousness? To me, that seems to be:

Omniscience
Omnipresence
Omnipotence, if not in this universe, than in subsequent simulated ones.

And then assume it already exists.

Yes, this would be the opposite end of the spectrum. Its easy to imagine the upward limit, though. Everything and infinity. That's always the upward limit.

If I can establish a downward limit though, I can have a nearly functional range.

 

[Me Myself]

There are certainly many gods that fit this trait, but I wonder about more all-encompassing types of gods. I suppose we can say that some of these would be personifications of all or of the universe itself, etc. But some do not seem to manifest as beings at all. I'm not sure if they would fit this trait.

What do you mean by not manifesting as "being" what is a "being" to you?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

What Madhuri said about gods being souls of nature.

I would point out though that god is an English word. When you say a god would be one who is immortal or such you are speaking of a power called by a word in its native culture that got translated to god.

Not all gods in Pagan religions do meet the things you listed. Pan, Osiris, and others were alive once and then died.

 

[Sir Doom]

What do you mean by not manifesting as "being" what is a "being" to you?

I guess a singular consciousness. Something that considers itself a complete one thing. I know there are beliefs formed around a force or a source that isn't exactly conscious on its own. Its hard for me to see powers like this to be a personification exactly.

What Madhuri said about gods being souls of nature.

I think you've stated it more definitively, in fact. You've removed the personification trait and the aspect trait. Some gods can be said not to be a personification, and some could be said to encompass all of nature instead of only an aspect of it. May seem a bit nitpicky, but I think we can put it on the list in this way.

I would point out though that god is an English word. When you say a god would be one who is immortal or such you are speaking of a power called by a word in its native culture that got translated to god.

Quite correct. I can see what a limitation that could put on the possibilities which is not my goal. I would like to include all notions of higher powers in the many forms and by their many names or lack of names as the case may be.

Not all gods in Pagan religions do meet the things you listed. Pan, Osiris, and others were alive once and then died.

Its interesting, I always thought Osiris sort of lived on in the Afterlife as the King of the Dead but from what I've been reading I think I might have been taking that the wrong way. Pan is a little different as I think Plutarch just sort of said he was dead once and Christianity picked the idea up a number of centuries later.

Immortality can look a bit different sometimes, and I think I want to include the sort where they might have lived forever if something hadn't killed them. But again, reading about Osiris, this wasn't the case either as he was supposed to have descended from a long line of rulers (obviously they must have died at some point for him to be King). So I guess immortality should be removed.

So the revised list at this point is:

A soul of Nature
Some hand in creation of us

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Well Osiris is the god of the dead its true, if you want to call that being alive, but the Egyptians would not have called him alive. Dead and alive to them were differing states of existence.

We in KO mourn the death of Osiris late in the year and also celebrate his becoming the god of the afterlife.

 

[Sir Doom]

Well Osiris is the god of the dead its true, if you want to call that being alive, but the Egyptians would not have called him alive. Dead and alive to them were differing states of existence.

We in KO mourn the death of Osiris late in the year and also celebrate his becoming the god of the afterlife.

I find it very fascinating and I'm glad I read more about it and plan to read more in the future as well. When I thought about the way Osiris seems to worshiped I knew that immortality had to be removed.

I have only a cursory understanding at this point, but if I'm envisioning this properly it seems like Osiris becomes king of the dead through the worship of him. If I'm seeing this correct I think that says something pretty significant about the nature of belief (not that its the topic exactly haha).

 

[Reptillian]

Perhaps a good starting point would be to try defining a god as any being superior to man in wisdom, intelligence, power, and morality. This simple starting view might encompass natural beings as gods...intelligent and benevolent aliens, or maybe even machine intelligence if it is ever invented.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I kind of disagree with the idea that we should include more moral then man in the definition of a god. Morals are such human things. I'm not sure transcendent beings like the gods would have a need for such a concept.

 

[Reptillian]

I kind of disagree with the idea that we should include more moral then man in the definition of a god. Morals are such human things. I'm not sure transcendent beings like the gods would have a need for such a concept.

I think you'd have to strike wisdom from my 4 suggested qualities as well, since in my mind, wisdom and morality go hand in hand. So we'd be left with any being superior to humanity in intelligence and power.

We could probably go off on quite a tangent discussing the nature of morality...

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Well I believe the gods are worthy of devotion for more reasons then just their attributes or how superior to us they might be.

You don't consider wisdom to factor into that the gods likely know more about the universe and reality then we do?

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I wanted to mention to the OP while its on my mind that not all cultures view gods as inherently immortal either.

In Germanic myth the gods sustain their life by eating the apples of youth. Otherwise they would grow old and eventually die.

 

[Sir Doom]

Perhaps a good starting point would be to try defining a god as any being superior to man in wisdom, intelligence, power, and morality. This simple starting view might encompass natural beings as gods...intelligent and benevolent aliens, or maybe even machine intelligence if it is ever invented.

The unfortunate thing is that gods definitely do not fit all of these qualities at once and certainly are not pervasive among all gods.

Many gods are extremely cruel by definition. We can't just leave them out.

 

[Sir Doom]

Well I believe the gods are worthy of devotion for more reasons then just their attributes or how superior to us they might be.

You don't consider wisdom to factor into that the gods likely know more about the universe and reality then we do?

Maybe wisdom or superior intelligence isn't the right way to put it so much as a duty or a purpose? I think this might be a good replacement for the soul of nature, what do you think? This sort of transcends the utility of the position to us, I think.

 

[Me Myself]

I guess a singular consciousness. Something that considers itself a complete one thing. I know there are beliefs formed around a force or a source that isn't exactly conscious on its own. Its hard for me to see powers like this to be a personification exactly.

I am not sure I am following you. I don´t think any abrahamic conception of God feels "incomplete" ? So, let´s say for the matter of argument I don´t consider myself a " "complete" "one" "thing" ". Do I stop being a being?

 

[Sir Doom]

I am not sure I am following you. I don´t think any abrahamic conception of God feels "incomplete" ? So, let´s say for the matter of argument I don´t consider myself a " "complete" "one" "thing" ". Do I stop being a being?

haha, well if you used to be being a being, and then began stopping to be a being then you would begin to be being an unbeing.

 

[Me Myself]

haha, well if you used to be being a being, and then began stopping to be a being then you would begin to be being an unbeing.

You know I was already having troubles following you!