Comparing Norse mythology to the Bible, why the similarites?

[amorphous_constellation]

I have read the bible, and now I have read much of norse mythology.. In doing this, I feel compelled to point out the strange places where the two systems converge.. though I can't think of any reason why they should, besides some idea that there was a so-called 'indo-european' religion that once existed, and formed an underlay, mutating across the thousands of miles from uppsala to israel? The examples I have found, when one thinks about them, seem too creative to be the products of 'theological surgery'

Now I'm going to add to this thread in sections, due to energy, focus, and time constraints

1. Cain and Abel

"Now it is to be told that, on a time, Sigi fared to the hunting of the deer, and the thrall with him; and they hunted deer day-long till the evening; and when they gathered together their prey in the evening, lo, greater and more by far was that which Bredi had slain than Sigi's prey; and this thing he much misliked, and he said that great wonder it was that a very thrall should out-do him in the hunting of deer: so he fell on him and slew him, and buried the body of him thereafter in a snow-drift." (1)

"Thus it is well seen that Sigi has slain the thrall and murdered him; so he is given forth to be a wolf in holy places, and may no more abide in the land with his father; therewith Odin bare him fellowship from the land, so long a way, that right long it was, and made no stay till he brought him to certain war-ships." (2)

That is the story of cain and abel, only it is an alternate version. Sigi, the direct son of odin, and a man high up the social hierarchy, is outdone by a 'thrall.' To my mind, this story might be giving out more moral stipulations than the cain and abel story: cain and abel start out on an equal footing in life, but sigi and bredi do not. Bredi is representative of abel, only more so, because he was working his way up from the bottom of the social pyramid, until sigi becomes jealous. Odin exiles sigi even though he seemingly had power and social status, so even the powerful are not free of judgement. Similarly, cain is also exiled, though he started out more like the bredi character, and so god flees from him as if he was a beast.

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(1) Charles, Eliot, LL. D., editor. Epic and Saga: Beowulf: The Song of Roland; The Destruction of Dá Derga’s Hostel; The Story of the Volsungs and Niblungs; with Introductions, Notes and Illustrations. Translated by Francis Gummere et al., P.F. Collier & Son, 1910, p. 275.

(2)
Charles, Eliot, LL. D., editor. Epic and Saga: Beowulf: The Song of Roland; The Destruction of Dá Derga’s Hostel; The Story of the Volsungs and Niblungs; with Introductions, Notes and Illustrations. Translated by Francis Gummere et al., P.F. Collier & Son, 1910, p. 276.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

though I can't think of any reason why they should,

Well, they were written down and collected by Christians. The Norse weren't into writing like the Greeks, Romans, Hindus, Persians, etc. so we have very little primary sources for them. Some think that various concepts such as Ragnarok, the idea of punishment in a hellish realm (being devoured or tormented by Níðhöggr) and even Loki himself stemmed from Christian influences since they are not documented in any other branch of Germanic paganism, with Norse religion being a later development.

 

[The Hammer]

I have read the bible, and now I have read much of norse mythology.. In doing this, I feel compelled to point out the strange places where the two systems converge.. though I can't think of any reason why they should, besides some idea that there was a so-called 'indo-european' religion that once existed, and formed an underlay, mutating across the thousands of miles from uppsala to israel? The examples I have found, when one thinks about them, seem too creative to be the products of 'theological surgery'

Now I'm going to add to this thread in sections, due to energy, focus, and time constraints

1. Cain and Abel

"Now it is to be told that, on a time, Sigi fared to the hunting of the deer, and the thrall with him; and they hunted deer day-long till the evening; and when they gathered together their prey in the evening, lo, greater and more by far was that which Bredi had slain than Sigi's prey; and this thing he much misliked, and he said that great wonder it was that a very thrall should out-do him in the hunting of deer: so he fell on him and slew him, and buried the body of him thereafter in a snow-drift." (1)

"Thus it is well seen that Sigi has slain the thrall and murdered him; so he is given forth to be a wolf in holy places, and may no more abide in the land with his father; therewith Odin bare him fellowship from the land, so long a way, that right long it was, and made no stay till he brought him to certain war-ships." (2)

That is the story of cain and abel, only it is an alternate version. Sigi, the direct son of odin, and a man high up the social hierarchy, is outdone by a 'thrall.' To my mind, this story might be giving out more moral stipulations than the cain and abel story: cain and abel start out on an equal footing in life, but sigi and bredi do not. Bredi is representative of abel, only more so, because he was working his way up from the bottom of the social pyramid, until sigi becomes jealous. Odin exiles sigi even though he seemingly had power and social status, so even the powerful are not free of judgement. Similarly, cain is also exiled, though he started out more like the bredi character, and so god flees from him as if he was a beast.

-----

(1) Charles, Eliot, LL. D., editor. Epic and Saga: Beowulf: The Song of Roland; The Destruction of Dá Derga’s Hostel; The Story of the Volsungs and Niblungs; with Introductions, Notes and Illustrations. Translated by Francis Gummere et al., P.F. Collier & Son, 1910, p. 275.

(2)
Charles, Eliot, LL. D., editor. Epic and Saga: Beowulf: The Song of Roland; The Destruction of Dá Derga’s Hostel; The Story of the Volsungs and Niblungs; with Introductions, Notes and Illustrations. Translated by Francis Gummere et al., P.F. Collier & Son, 1910, p. 276.

A lot of the stories between religions have been shared back and forth well before it was ever written down, and probably comes from the same Proto-Indo-European root Mythology which has been lost to time.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Well, they were written down and collected by Christians. The Norse weren't into writing like the Greeks, Romans, Hindus, Persians, etc. so we have very little primary sources for them. Some think that various concepts such as Ragnarok, the idea of punishment in a hellish realm (being devoured or tormented by Níðhöggr) and even Loki himself stemmed from Christian influences since they are not documented in any other branch of Germanic paganism, with Norse religion being a later development.

That's where you might look at archaeology right... like how do you explain all of the figures on the ramsund carving for example, or other numerous archeological pieces that seem to have symbology or figures that are taken from the myths.. even just a couple square inches of a helmet are covered in this stuff, or even little amulets etc. People tie that to these myths too, don't they

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

That's where you might look at archaeology right... like you explain all of the figures on the ramsund carving for example, or other numerous things that seem to have symbology or figures that are taken from the myths

Yeah, but this discussion is about the myths. A lot of those artefacts, we're not sure what they mean but have good guesses at times. Like I said, the Norse didn't write that much so it's a matter of trying to decipher things.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Yeah, but this discussion is about the myths. A lot of those artefacts, we're not sure what they mean but have good guesses at times. Like I said, the Norse didn't write that much so it's a matter of trying to decipher things.

You know what, I actually think it's very interesting either way.. In any case, I will continue the comparisons, whatever be the nature of their origination. But, I feel like I tilt toward the pre-religion religion idea.. Just because I think it is too creative for it to be just editing.. they would have had to invent too many connections, to my mind

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

You know what, I actually think it's very interesting either way.. In any case, I will continue the comparisons, whatever be the nature of their origination. But, I feel like I tilt toward the pre-religion religion idea.. Just because I think it is too creative for it to be just editing.. they would have had to invent too many connections, to my mind

I think the explanation is more practical, like how it was Christians who wrote those myths down (like Snorri).

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well, they were written down and collected by Christians. The Norse weren't into writing like the Greeks, Romans, Hindus, Persians, etc. so we have very little primary sources for them. Some think that various concepts such as Ragnarok, the idea of punishment in a hellish realm (being devoured or tormented by Níðhöggr) and even Loki himself stemmed from Christian influences since they are not documented in any other branch of Germanic paganism, with Norse religion being a later development.

Not much else to add. It seems that what little we have did undergo a Christianizing, probably as happened to the version of Beowulf that was eventually written down.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

2. Giants among humans

"Now when he was fully come to man's estate, Hrimnir the giant sends to him Ljod his daughter; she of whom the tale told, that she brought the apple to Rerir, Volsung's father. So Volsung weds her withal; and long they abode together with good hap and great love. They had ten sons and one daughter, and their eldest son was hight Sigmund, and their daughter Signy ; and these two were twins, and in all wise the foremost and the fairest of the children of Volsung the king, and mighty, as all his seed was; even as has been long told from ancient days, and in tales of long ago, with the greatest fame of all men, how that the Volsungs have been great men and high-minded and far above the most of men both in cunning and in prowess and all things high and mighty." - Charles, Eliot, LL. D., editor. Epic and Saga: Beowulf: The Song of Roland; The Destruction of Dá Derga’s Hostel; The Story of the Volsungs and Niblungs; with Introductions, Notes and Illustrations. Translated by Francis Gummere et al., P.F. Collier & Son, 1910, p. 278.

Genesis 6:4 - There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. - KJV

The giants/nephilim are of course, alive and well in norse mythology, and are mentioned here and there in the early parts of the bible, such as with 'Og king of bashan,' and probably Goliath. And so with this passage, we see that these giant figures are said to reproduce with people, and also produce some ancient line of 'mighty men.'

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Not much else to add. It seems that what little we have did undergo a Christianizing, probably as happened to the version of Beowulf that was eventually written down.

I at least found my read of the sagas and eddas to be an extensive enough project.. I think there's probably plenty to say about it, though I haven't been thinking about what they mean for too long myself

 

[Rival]

2. Giants among humans

"Now when he was fully come to man's estate, Hrimnir the giant sends to him Ljod his daughter; she of whom the tale told, that she brought the apple to Rerir, Volsung's father. So Volsung weds her withal; and long they abode together with good hap and great love. They had ten sons and one daughter, and their eldest son was hight Sigmund, and their daughter Signy ; and these two were twins, and in all wise the foremost and the fairest of the children of Volsung the king, and mighty, as all his seed was; even as has been long told from ancient days, and in tales of long ago, with the greatest fame of all men, how that the Volsungs have been great men and high-minded and far above the most of men both in cunning and in prowess and all things high and mighty." - Charles, Eliot, LL. D., editor. Epic and Saga: Beowulf: The Song of Roland; The Destruction of Dá Derga’s Hostel; The Story of the Volsungs and Niblungs; with Introductions, Notes and Illustrations. Translated by Francis Gummere et al., P.F. Collier & Son, 1910, p. 278.

Genesis 6:4 - There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. - KJV

The giants/nephilim are of course, alive and well in norse mythology, and are mentioned here and there in the early parts of the bible, such as with 'Og king of bashan,' and probably Goliath. And so with this passage, we see that these giant figures are said to reproduce with people, and also produce some ancient line of 'mighty men.'

Giants seem to be in most mythology. It's like having spirits or such. I'm not sure how much comparison can be made here.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

Giants seem to be in most mythology. It's like having spirits or such. I'm not sure how much comparison can be made here.

I tend to think that idea of a spirit is at least that, but the idea of a Giant, and what that means, is at least slightly more specific. In any case, your post speaks to my thesis point. That is, that the similarity ends up breaking the barrier of comparison and converges. Case and point, let's say we could get a Jew and a Norseman around a coffee table around 600 or 700 A.D., or maybe even far earlier. Neither had heard much about the spirituality of the other: however, when the conversation turns to the content of Genesis 6:4, they suddenly have a vibrant conversation, and have more to say about it than any pairing of modern people would.

Now when it comes to modern people, we literally have nothing to say about Genesis 6:4. We don't really know what bible means by valorizing giants, as if were a footnote. Maybe early biblical followers did have more insights about it - but the sagas and eddas will, in any case, expand on the verse for you, and take you down that road, which genesis only hints at.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

3. The fruit of knowledge

"Now crept the worm down to his place of watering, and the earth shook all about him, and he snorted forth venom on all the way before him as he went; but Sigurd neither trembled nor was adrad at the roaring of him. So whenas the worm crept over the pits, Sigurd thrust his sword under his left shoulder, so that it sank in up to the hilts, then up leapt Sigurd from the pit and drew the sword back again unto him, and therewith was his arm all bloody, up to the very shoulder." - Charles, Eliot, LL. D., editor. Epic and Saga: Beowulf: The Song of Roland; The Destruction of Dá Derga’s Hostel; The Story of the Volsungs and Niblungs; with Introductions, Notes and Illustrations. Translated by Francis Gummere et al., P.F. Collier & Son, 1910, pp. 313

"Then Sigurd went his ways and roasted it on a rod; and when the blood bubbled out he laid his finger thereon to essay it, if it were fully done ; and then he set his finger in his mouth, and lo, when the heart-blood of the worm touched his tongue, straightway he knew the voice of all fowls, and heard withal how the wood-peckers chattered in the brake beside him — "There sittest thou, Sigurd, roasting Fafnir's heart for another, that thou shouldest eat thine ownself, and then thou shouldest become the wisest of all men."" - Charles, Eliot, LL. D., editor. Epic and Saga: Beowulf: The Song of Roland; The Destruction of Dá Derga’s Hostel; The Story of the Volsungs and Niblungs; with Introductions, Notes and Illustrations. Translated by Francis Gummere et al., P.F. Collier & Son, 1910, pp. 316-317.

"Sigurd gave of the serpent's heart to Gudrun, and she ate thereof, and became greater-hearted, and wiser than ere before: and the son of these twain was called Sigmund." - Charles, Eliot, LL. D., editor. Epic and Saga: Beowulf: The Song of Roland; The Destruction of Dá Derga’s Hostel; The Story of the Volsungs and Niblungs; with Introductions, Notes and Illustrations. Translated by Francis Gummere et al., P.F. Collier & Son, 1910, pp. 335-336.

The fruit of knowledge is attained, whereby adam eats the heart of the snake, and himself gives a piece of it to eve (gudrun). These passages and the overall story of sigurd's adventure seem to comprise the original, forgotten western dragon myth. In it, a wholly different set of characteristics are given to the Adam & Eve archetype, namely that the characters start out as being wise and competent, and the interaction with the snake is so that they might polish these qualities even more, through conquering the snake itself.

I am uncertain that any kind of 'sin' seems to enter the picture, via the consumption of the fruit. Though perhaps, a sort of common sense conclusion might be that one could engage in general moral risk, by integrating the snake archetype into their body/mind.

Also, I am reminded of Matthew 15:11. That is to say, that a man should be able to morally a master the information he imbibes, even if it be concentrated in a dragon's heart

 

[amorphous_constellation]

4. Adam & Eve

"17. Until there came three mighty and benevolent Aesir to the world from their assembly. They found on earth, nearly powerless, Ask and Embla, void of destiny.
18. Spirit they possessed not, sense they had not, blood nor motive powers, nor goodly colour. Spirit gave Odin, sense gave Hoenir, blood gave Lodur, and goodly colour." - Anderson, Rasmus, LL. D., and J. W. Buel Ph. D., editors. The Elder Eddas of Saemund Sigfusson; and the Younger Eddas of Snorre Sturleson. Translated by Benjamin Thorpe and I.A. Blackwell, Norroena Society, 1907, p. 3.

""One day." replied Har, "as the sons of Bor were walking along the sea-beach they found two stems of wood, out of which they shaped a man and a woman. The first (Odin) infused into them life and spirit; the second (Vili) endowed them with reason and the power of motion; the third (Ve) gave them speech and features, hearing and vision. The man they called Ask, and the woman, Embla. From these two descend the whole human race whose assigned dwelling was within Midgard." - Anderson, Rasmus, LL. D., and J. W. Buel Ph. D., editors. The Elder Eddas of Saemund Sigfusson; and the Younger Eddas of Snorre Sturleson. Translated by Benjamin Thorpe and I.A. Blackwell, Norroena Society, 1907, p. 265.

Like with Sigurd and Gudrun, who in my opinion, are also Adam & Eve figures, the eddas also have the figures of Ask and Embla. As with Sigurd and Gudrun, this tale seems to use the same shuffled 'biblical devices.' The gods give 'adam and eve' their senses, unlike in genesis where they get that quality from a tree, but just like in genesis, trees are still made central, because apparently people are trees. And as well, these two people, people the earth. Notice that the two accounts in these passages vary slightly: to me, this signals that a more organic, cultural foundation may have been carrying the stories. For why would Christian writers give variance to the general account in this fashion? Such variance is likely more often the result of the organic mutability of a story, varying here and there from each place it is collected

 

[Brickjectivity]

I have read the bible, and now I have read much of norse mythology.. In doing this, I feel compelled to point out the strange places where the two systems converge.. though I can't think of any reason why they should,...

There is evidence that Egyptian myths are much older than stories in the bible and also that the story of Gilgamesh is older than the story of Noah. Both the Egyptian language and the story of Gilgamesh were lost for long periods before being rediscovered only in recent centuries by Archeology. In addition the bible does not seem to copy older stories but to pointedly repurpose them. How does one get people to read something? One makes something similar to what they like, because readers want more of what they like. Star Wars fans want more Star Wars stories. Jane Austin fans want more Pride & Prejudice stories. Fans of myths want: more myths.