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Concerning Noah's ark

FSM-follower

New Member
Assuming the bible is literally true, not metaphorical, but literally true. In Genesis 6-10, the story of Noah's ark, I have a few questions that would need a pretty good explanation for me to consider it true or even possible. But really I am more curious about just two specifically.

1. Where did all the rain come from?

2. Where did the water recede to?

Assuming everyone is familiar with the water cycle (evaporation, formation of clouds, precipitaion, rinse and repeat) I'm curious as to how it would be literally possible. Since the rain must come from the surface of Earth (evaporation) how could there be enough rain to cover the highest mountain peak(s)? For reference Mount Everest has the claim of #1 at over 29,000 ft (8,848 Meters).
 
A

angellous_evangellous

Guest
I congratulate you on the originality of these questions.

No Christian has ever heard of nor addressed anything like this before.

In light of your penetrating insight, I would have to say that it's not literally possible. But I await Christians smarter than I.
 
I am most likely not smarter than angellous_evangellous, but...

I'd reccommend looking into the "canopy theory." Among other things, it provides an explaination as to how the volume of water required to produce a world wide flood that covered the peaks of the highest mountains can have existed. Perhaps ask in one of the scientific sub-forums.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
i am more curious about just two specifically.

1. Where did all the rain come from?

in the creation account, moses described two different waters...one above the expanse and one below the expanse....the expanse was the atmosphere we breath and birds were said to fly in.
So it was this watery canopy surrounding the earth that the Creator collapsed back to the earth to engulf the earth in water. If you are wondering if its possible, then yes it is. Regarding the possibility the book The Genesis Flood (1961), by John C. Whitcomb, Jr., and Henry M. Morris, observes:

“The region above about 80 miles is very hot, over 100° F and possibly rising to 3000° F, and is in fact called the thermosphere for this reason. High temperature, of course, is the chief requisite for retaining a large quantity of water vapor. Furthermore, it is known that water vapor is substantially lighter than air and most of the other gases making up the atmosphere. There is thus nothing physically impossible about the concept of a vast thermal vapor blanket once existing in the upper atmosphere.”

And the apostle Peter also described this 2nd area of water in 2Peter 3:5 “There were heavens from of old and an earth standing compactly out of water and in the midst of water by the word of God.”—2 Peter 3:5


2. Where did the water recede to?
It drained off into the oceans. There is physical evidence of river beds far below the current ocean level and this proves that at one time in the recent past, the oceans were much lower. Also the crust of the earth is quite thin and under the weight of such an immense force a lot of shifting and buckling of the crust would likely have occurred so that mountains became higher and oceans deepened. I know my explanation lacks a lot of detail, but that would explain how the water was able to drain into the oceans.

There is also the points about precipitation you mention... i wonder how much water is always in the skys as clouds? surely the cloud cover is also much of the water that inundated the earth. So some of it filled up the oceans, some precipitated to become clouds and some froze in the northern and sourthern poles.


Assuming everyone is familiar with the water cycle (evaporation, formation of clouds, precipitaion, rinse and repeat) I'm curious as to how it would be literally possible. Since the rain must come from the surface of Earth (evaporation) how could there be enough rain to cover the highest mountain peak(s)? For reference Mount Everest has the claim of #1 at over 29,000 ft (8,848 Meters).

basing ones opinion on what our climate is today doesnt really work for the reason that the pre-flood world was said to be quite different...one big difference is that the bible says that there was no rain before the flood...the first time anyone saw rain was in the flood episode. So obviously this indicates a vastly different climate back then. And if the earth was surrounded by a water canopy, then it would have produced a greenhouse effect and the land below would have been much warmer. There is evidence of a warmer climate (obviously scientists say this was a lot longer ago then 5,000 odd years ago) Antarctic was once a warm lush green land with at least 60 different kinds of plants.
 
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FSM-follower

New Member
Thanks for pointing out how unoriginal my questions are. I would not claim them to be original seeing as how children could (and do) ask questions like this. Anyhow I did a little reading into the water canopy theory and it doesn't hold much water. I enjoyed this (fsteiger.com/canopy.htm)article on the math the most. It's a very interesting read and I would recommend it to anyone as unfamiliar as I was about the theory. A little paragraph that stands out the most to me follows:

"At 77 degrees F. the amount of water vapor in air at 100% humidity is 23 grams per cubic meter. A cubic meter of liquid water contains 1,000,000 grams. These figures are equivalent to 0.043 cubic meters per gram of water vapor, and 0.000001 cubic meters per gram of liquid water. Therefore the volume ratio of water vapor to liquid water is 0.043/0.000001 = 43,000. If all of the moisture in air at 77 degrees F. and 100% relative humidity were converted to liquid water one mile deep, it would require an atmosphere 43,000 miles in thickness to hold that amount of water!"

Then I looked to see come of the creationists side to the canopy theory though all I found were articles essentially saying that it is an argument that Christians should no longer use. That can be found here (hccp://creation.com/arguments-we-think-creationists-should-not-use). And a little more can be found here (godandscience.org/youngearth/canopy.htm)

If we can agree that it is literally impossible could we not just then dismiss it? Or do you think it did happen? You never said you believed you did or didn't, you just agreed you thought it was literally impossible. I and many others agree with you there.

Edit- Could not post hyperlinks due to my lack of posts. So I posted the url in parenthesis instead. Hopefully the sloppiness will not deter you from checking out the information I found, just replace cc with tt for the second link. In the first and third links you'll have to manually add the http www thing.
 
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FSM-follower

New Member
Quote:
1. Where did all the rain come from?
God turned on the faucet.

Quote:
2. Where did the water recede to?
Down the drain.

Where could the faucet and drain be found?

some preachers were claiming that the flood was only concentrated in noahs palce...

Then it's not really wiping out all of humanity then, is it? Why not just leave to a different area instead of spending all those years building an ark?
 

Thesavorofpan

Is not going to save you.
Assuming the bible is literally true, not metaphorical, but literally true. In Genesis 6-10, the story of Noah's ark, I have a few questions that would need a pretty good explanation for me to consider it true or even possible. But really I am more curious about just two specifically.

1. Where did all the rain come from?

2. Where did the water recede to?

Assuming everyone is familiar with the water cycle (evaporation, formation of clouds, precipitaion, rinse and repeat) I'm curious as to how it would be literally possible. Since the rain must come from the surface of Earth (evaporation) how could there be enough rain to cover the highest mountain peak(s)? For reference Mount Everest has the claim of #1 at over 29,000 ft (8,848 Meters).

I'm going to swing for the fences here.

1. He created it.

2. Maybe the oceans weren't as deep as they are now back then.
 

tomarnold

Member
The Bible also reveals to us that God "opened up the wells of the deep"- literally split the earth which contained an unspecified amount of water- in addition to any rain.
 

KnightOwl

Member
There is an additional problem for young earth creationists -- The Egyptians.

I'm going from memory here so if I get the numbers wrong, the basic concept I checked out pretty well back when I saw this a few years ago... I believe YEC folk place the Noahic flood to be about 4500 years ago, right? So how do they explain that the Egyptians have a relatively uninterupted written history that goes further back?
 

tomarnold

Member
I couldnt give you an exact date, Im sure it calculates to around 4500-5000 years ago approx. And we don't have any historical evidences from before then, do some research on the problems with the dating methods used to determine such things.

There is actually over 100 seperate flood accounts from different cultures and slightly different perspectives worldwide. Do you know why? There was a flood.


THE IDEA that every culture that is not our own is stupid and cannot record real history but instead primarily myth is INSANE. Yet we have become the stupidest educated people in history, and this is what many believe.
 

kylixguru

Well-Known Member
It is true there was a natural deluge of massive proportions in our planet's recent history. We have the ice age coming to an end about 12,000 years ago. It is reported that ocean levels raised about 400ft worldwide. It is estimated that what used to be among the world's best arable land about the size of Europe and China combined, is now under water. The vast majority of the world's population was wiped out. It was a massive catastrophe. But, it was not anything of the order that is reported to have happened in Noah's day. However, I'm sure there were many who wouldn't have known the difference and if those souls are still among us they certainly carry with them buried in their consciousness a recollection of their experience.

If there was a flood based on H2O I am in favor of drawing on the distinction of earth vs. planet. It could have been a localized flood. There is evidence in Arizona at well over 5,000 ft elevation of vast amounts of water carried debris that is now fossilized. There had to have been a massive tsunami that went to great heights with great force and volume to have carried that material and deposit it where it did.

However, as I read the bible I have come to see a metaphoric key that acts as a decoder for what is written in the pre-Abrahamic timeframe. When the people and "creatures" were spoken of it is said "wherein dwells the breath of life". This looks innocent enough on the surface but there are linking keys that lets you know a different kind of life than we normally think of is what is being referred to.

This "life" could be thought of as a certain level of knowledge or spiritual enlightenment that distinguishes a person who is a living soul in God's eyes and who is just a zombie in God's eyes.

Take notice of Adam. He was created from the dust of the ground and then God put into him his "breath of life". That act turned Adam into a living soul. (Gen 2:7) If we want to know more precisely how this happened to Adam, we can look at what Jesus did to his disciples in John 20:22. Jesus breathed upon them and commanded them "receive ye the Holy Ghost". At that time his disciples were brought from a state of spiritual death to a state of spiritual life. They were brought back into the presense of God because the Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead and now it dwelt in them. Their separation from God was healed. Death is separation and resurrection is reunion.

Thus, as far as I'm concerned, the most important resurrection Jesus brought and instituted is the bestowal of the Gift of the Holy Ghost, which was a new ordinance the Jews did not have because they rejected the higher laws under the Melchizedek Priesthood level of things. As a people, they were under the Aaronic level that dealt only with the carnal commandments. They were not functioning on the higher level of the laws. Thus, Jesus came to raise them up to spiritual life, the kind of life Adam had, but they rejected it. Thus, they remain spiritually dead to this day. But, I digress.

Thus, Adam being the first "living soul" does not necessarily require him to be the first man alive on the planet as we would normally think. This planet could be full of people who are physically alive and well but all spiritually dead as a doornail. If God selects a man, a fleck of dust, and puts into him the "breath of life", which is the "Holy Ghost", then that man who was physically living now also becomes spiritually living.

So, I posit, the flood that took place in the days of Noah was a kind of flood that drowned out the "breath of life" from all those upon the earth. Thus, it didn't kill their physical bodies at all. It simply drove out of them their level of enlightment due to having the Holy Ghost driven out of them. They were flooded out by the philosophies of men and reduced themselves to zombies in God's eyes.

Now, as for the ark and all the animals. The ark floated up above the flood of man's garbage thinking. It was an ideological boat that kept them from drowning. Also, the animals coming in two by two wasn't actually animals in the literal sense. These were animals as can be understood from the metaphor of the creation account. They were all representative of various classes of people at different stages of enlightenment. Christians are at the "fish" level in the evolutionary rung of things so all of these individuals who avoided the flood were a cut above this class of people. They were the caliber of people such as the founding fathers of the USA, who had a realatively high degree of enlightenment but they were not the full stature of Adam or Noah himself. It became the duty of these individuals to attempt to seed enlightenment back into the civilizations of the world that had all become zombies as far as God was concerned.
 
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diosangpastol

Dios - ang - Pastol
NoahsArk1.jpg
 

KnightOwl

Member
I couldnt give you an exact date, Im sure it calculates to around 4500-5000 years ago approx. And we don't have any historical evidences from before then, do some research on the problems with the dating methods used to determine such things.

There is actually over 100 seperate flood accounts from different cultures and slightly different perspectives worldwide. Do you know why? There was a flood.

THE IDEA that every culture that is not our own is stupid and cannot record real history but instead primarily myth is INSANE. Yet we have become the stupidest educated people in history, and this is what many believe.

Actually we DO have historical evidence from before that. I didn't just make this up. I spoke with someone whose job is Egyptian archeology. They have written accounts dating quite a bit further back than the date range for the flood if you follow YEC dating methods using the Bible. Now if you don't believe Adam and Eve can be dated back to 6000-6500 years ago using the Bible as your guide, then you're probably not going to be able to correlate the flood and Egyptian written history. If memory serves the Egyptian written history goes back to about 3000 BC. I could be wrong.

Do you know why there are so many different flood accounts worldwide? Because floods are a relatively common event. I never said anything about anyone being stupid.
 
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