• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Conscience: Simple, Powerful, Infallible

joe1776

Well-Known Member
If a Loving Creator exists, and if it wanted us to have freewill along with moral guidance, we would have a simple-to-use, cross-cultural, internal moral guidance system. It's very likely that conscience is exactly that.

A bias is any preexisting belief capable of sending a judgment off its correct course. Even when we want to do the right thing morally our judgment can be thrown off course by a bias. Because of biases, the simple and powerful nature of conscience isn't obvious.

When we read the facts in a case of cold-blooded murder, we immediately feel moral outrage. That's a signal from our conscience that the act is wrong. We have to regard that judgment as infallible because conscience is the only moral authority we have.

When we write criminal laws to prohibit murder, they are unnecessary at best and biases at their worst because human acts happen in an almost infinite variety, moral situations are not an exception. Conscience is equipped to deal with those variations, the reasoning function of our brains cannot. It's not possible to write the perfect law on murder or any other kind of act.

The very same killing might be justifiable in several states in the USA but not in others. And, we're talking about laws that have a history of a thousand years, going back to English common law. The collective conscience of unbiased juries, after hearing all the facts, and unhindered by laws, would offer the best judgments on such cases.

The reasoning function of our brains is the wrong tool for dealing with moral judgments. In addition to criminal laws, interpretation of religious texts and self-made moral rules, also products of reasoning, often create biases.

The laws in the USA have been heavily influenced by interpretations of scripture from the Christian Bible. Many of those laws were and still are immoral. As we examine our conscience, issue by issue, we are getting rid of the immoral laws such as those that allowed slavery and those that deprived women, minorities and homosexuals of their equal rights.

Criminal laws could be replaced by a simple mission statement to establish the state's obligation to protect innocent citizens from serious harm. Conscience has taught us that it is wrong to intentionally harm or endanger an innocent person. That's enough to guide unbiased juries.

Conscience alone isn't compelling evidence that a Loving Creator exists, but once we understand its simple and powerful nature, it should create the suspicion.

Comments or questions?
 
Last edited:

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Conscience alone isn't compelling evidence that a Loving Creator exists, but once we understand its simple and powerful nature, it should create the suspicion.

Comments or questions?
I believe in God, and a greater consciousness, but I fully realize the limits of the objective evidence to justify this belief. I would most definitely avoid creating suspicions!!!
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
I believe in God, and a greater consciousness, but I fully realize the limits of the objective evidence to justify this belief. I would most definitely avoid creating suspicions!!!
If I'm wrong, please correct me. Isn't the goal of your Baha'i Faith global harmony? If we humans learned to use conscience as a moral guide rather than scripture, global harmony would be inevitable, in my opinion.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
My conscience doesn't enter the picture, or come into the foreground very often, simply because my actions are largely quite deliberate. I think about things, analyze the possible outcomes and then, after weighing the possible outcomes, proceed. It's very rare when I need to second guess my overall decisions though I admit I am endlessly tweaking, especially when in largely unknown country, as it were.

That said, I also don't get too bogged down in morality. It is very rarely ever a consideration. I realize that morality is a variable from person to person but that does not mean that I don't have a well developed sense of right and wrong. I just don't tend to lord my sense of morality over others, as it occupies such a small area in my thinking.

So, though I do agree that conscience is a self-correcting aspect of consciousness, that arises when we are thoughtless of our actions and really wish we have thought things out better to begin with, I do not see that it lends itself as being any evidence of some so-called "Creator" above and beyond ourselves.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
If I'm wrong, please correct me. Isn't the goal of your Baha'i Faith global harmony? If we humans learned to use conscience as a moral guide rather than scripture, global harmony would be inevitable, in my opinion.
Perhaps, but we all have different senses of what is permissible and what is not. I'd say that it would be an equally chaotic system.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
If I'm wrong, please correct me. Isn't the goal of your Baha'i Faith global harmony? If we humans learned to use conscience as a moral guide rather than scripture, global harmony would be inevitable, in my opinion.

Yes, as I said I believe in God, and I will add that yes, I believe in the Baha'i Faith, universal consciousness, and the long term goals of the Baha'i Faith.

I also keep both feet on the ground and do not try to manipulate the objective evidence to justify my beliefs.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Criminal laws could be replaced by a simple mission statement to establish the state's obligation to protect innocent citizens from serious harm. Conscience has taught us that it is wrong to intentionally harm or endanger an innocent person. That's enough to guide unbiased juries.

Maybe in simple cases. But most "law" exists around the delicate boundaries of what's fair and what's not.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
So, though I do agree that conscience is a self-correcting aspect of consciousness, that arises when we are thoughtless of our actions and really wish we have thought things out better to begin with, I do not see that it lends itself as being any evidence of some so-called "Creator" above and beyond ourselves.
You don't accept that conscience is a simple, powerful, infallible tool for moral guidance, and you minimize the importance of moral guidance, so of course you don't see the conscience I describe as evidence anything.
 
Last edited:

joe1776

Well-Known Member
Maybe in simple cases. But most "law" exists around the delicate boundaries of what's fair and what's not.
That's true, but my point is that justice would be served better by giving all the facts of a case to an unbiased jury unhindered by law because those laws represent an attempt to micromanage future decisions while having none of the facts of the cases at hand.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
That's true, but my point is that justice would be served better by giving all the facts of a case to an unbiased jury unhindered by law because those laws represent an attempt to micromanage future decision while having none of the facts of the cases at hand.

There is no doubt that bodies of law are imperfect. That said, much of our bodies of law represent millions of years of collective thinking. Your suggestion would lead us to inconsistent and relatively ill conceived judgments, especially for cases with any subtlety or complexity.
 
Conscience suggests fear of consequences. Better than nothing, but only a step towards the direct connection: Intuition.
Intuition is more than simply a largely misunderstood word. It bypasses the mind, and reveals the Way.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
There is no doubt that bodies of law are imperfect. That said, much of our bodies of law represent millions of years of collective thinking. Your suggestion would lead us to inconsistent and relatively ill conceived judgments, especially for cases with any subtlety or complexity.
My argument is that the conscience of an unbiased jury is better equipped to deal with that subtlety and complexity than the reasoning minds of lawmakers who have none of the facts of case when they wrote the law.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Conscience suggests fear of consequences. Better than nothing, but only a step towards the direct connection: Intuition.
Intuition is more than simply a largely misunderstood word. It bypasses the mind, and reveals the Way.

Hey, we almost agree on something! Cognitive science tells us that a mind has both an explicit aspect and an implicit aspect. I would restate your last sentence a bit and say: "Expert intuition is more than simply a largely misunderstood phrase. It bypasses the explicit mind and is the seat of much of our capabilities."
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
Conscience suggests fear of consequences. Better than nothing, but only a step towards the direct connection: Intuition.
Intuition is more than simply a largely misunderstood word. It bypasses the mind, and reveals the Way.
Conscience IS intuitive. It derives from the subconscious which might well be in touch with a greater reality.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
My argument is that the conscience of an unbiased jury is better equipped to deal with that subtlety and complexity than the reasoning minds of lawmakers who have none of the facts of case when they wrote the law.

To me this is yet another example of an orientation that dismisses expertise.
 
Conscience IS intuitive. It derives from the subconscious which might well be in touch with a greater reality.
Different words for different things. They are related, but not synonymous.
Conscience warns, then provides regret if the warning is unheeded.
Intuition guides the steps, that one does not make a misstep.
 

joe1776

Well-Known Member
Different words for different things. They are related, but not synonymous.
Conscience warns, then provides regret if the warning is unheeded.
Intuition guides the steps, that one does not make a misstep.
I have no problem with that explanation.
 
Top