Consciousness in Cavemen? A Debate.

[mickiel]

Could you atleast give me a post number so i could go back and have a look?

-Q

Thats like giving a blind man a map to a city and expecting him to drive there. It can be plastered all in front of your face, but your consciousness is preconditioned not to see it, I already know this. The critical problem with Atheist is that they look at these studies and decide before hand to automatically find discrepencys, they are naturally imperceptible to this truth, they think they are after solution learning, but they are really after the suppression of this truth in their minds, even though their mouths ask for evidence, really expecting no evidence to penertrate them. And I am not one to force feed.

Consciousness is the governor of behavior, thats WHY conscious humans change so often and grow. For millions of years primordal man didNOT ever change, they literally stayed the same, thats evidence right there of no Consciousness. Good greif man, I could use your own theory of Emergent Evolution to prove that primordal man had no consciousness, because inherent in your belief , new emergent properties form new relations and emerge with them and bring about new change! Even your own beliefs , in my view, supply evidence that primordal man never did this in all those years of living. They stayed the same.

Now this is pure reason, but I know your mind is incapable of " Seeing this Evidence." So when the blindman continues to ask me for a map, I already know its useless to give it to him. I have given you maps in the past, you did nothing with them then, you'll do nothing with them now. THATS why I basically just overlook your request for evidence.

Peace.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

I heard a wonderful argument concerning the evolution of consciousness in humans, if anyone is interested in looking more into this...

The argument is that the earliest signs of consciousness that can be found in the archaeological record are the earliest human-like statues.

Humans then could imagine themselves and recreate an image of themselves, recognizing their individuality and place in this world.

Interesting.

As far as I can tell, this post has been ignored.

 

[mickiel]

As far as I can tell, this post has been ignored.

Well I can agree that humans errecting statues is a definte sign of Consciousness, they imagine and recreate images of themselves or " Their gods." I agree with this, yes. It is also evidence that primordal man had no consciousness, because they errected no primoirdal statues, absoluetly no evidence of primordal statues have ever been found, none from that period.

Peace.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Well I can agree that humans errecting statues is a definte sign of Consciousness, they imagine and recreate images of themselves or " Their gods." I agree with this, yes. It is also evidence that primordal man had no consciousness, because they errected no primoirdal statues, absoluetly no evidence of primordal statues have ever been found, none from that period.

Peace.

What do you think that a primordial statue would look like?

[BTW, the earliest human statues date at 250,000 years ago]

 

[mickiel]

What do you think that a primordial statue would look like?

[BTW, the earliest human statues date at 250,000 years ago]

Well they would look like they look. However, I dispute your estimate of the earliest human statue being dated at 250,000 years old, I would like to see your source on that. The earliest find I am aware of is the " Ica Age goddess " found in the Swabian Alb Mountians here recently, its been said to be the oldest found and its only 35,000 years old.

Peace.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Well they would look like they look. However, I dispute your estimate of the earliest human statue being dated at 250,000 years old, I would like to see your source on that. The earliest find I am aware of is the " Ica Age goddess " found in the Swabian Alb Mountians here recently, its been said to be the oldest found and its only 35,000 years old.

Peace.

I would, too.

Like I said, I heard it on NPR when they were interviewing an archaeologist.

250,000 yrs ago would be right at the dawn of homo sapiens.

 

[mickiel]

I would, too.

Like I said, I heard it on NPR when they were interviewing an archaeologist.

250,000 yrs ago would be right at the dawn of homo sapiens.

Well no, you didnot say that at first. The statue found in Germany is a known factual find, nothing I heard. The woman is carved out of Ivory, with extra large breast and hips, and is 35,000 years old.

Peace.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Well no, you didnot say that at first. The statue found in Germany is a known factual find, nothing I heard. The woman is carved out of Ivory, with extra large breast and hips, and is 35,000 years old.

Peace.

hahaha

Well I said "I heard" not "I read."

 

[mickiel]

hahaha

Well I said "I heard" not "I read."

Well anyhow, the 35,000 year old statue shows human Consciousness at that time, but its no where even near the oldest fossils found. A skull in Chad that is at least 6 million years old and fossils in Ethopias Afar desert were 4.4 million years old. These are the primordal humans I have spoken of that had no Consciousness.

Peace.

 

[David69]

a million years ago even, man had the biggest ever communication tool! They didnt need to speak at all with voice! throughout our own evolution we need this tool less as we no longer live so far apart from each other. We made radio, telephone, internet etc! our tool is shrinking!
we no longer communicate on higherlevels of consciousness! (my pinial is the size of a plumb btw

 

[mickiel]

a million years ago even, man had the biggest ever communication tool! They didnt need to speak at all with voice! throughout our own evolution we need this tool less as we no longer live so far apart from each other. We made radio, telephone, internet etc! our tool is shrinking!
we no longer communicate on higherlevels of consciousness! (my pinial is the size of a plumb btw

I would be interested in knowing what a " Natural Lucifarian" is, if you would explain. Its orgin, its beliefs, ect...

Peace.

 

[David69]

Mickiel...

I would be interested in knowing what a " Natural Lucifarian" is, if you would explain. Its orgin, its beliefs, ect...

someone who has awakened to the knowledge from within. They experience the supernatural and seek out what it all means! They communicate on higher levels! If they are aware of it or not.
Natural Lucifarians know no books but know knowledge from the Higherself or the real you, that most intelligent part. I beleive that a lot of it is passed on through d.n.a.
The origin/sourse! Hmmm maybe the first mind that realised that the mind manifests will and intent etc the one who realised subconscious communication... Lucifer 9.. is this thing a God... alot to do with our subconscious manifests Gods etc but we are our own God and is our aim to become as one with the real us... to attain our FULL potential.

Hope this helps.
Power to your dreams m8.
David69

ps... the black pantha resinates with me in a big way!!!
Why did you choose this avatar?

 

[The Neo Nerd]

You're deflecting again. Here we have the "'I've already posted it" defense followed by the "You're just not able to understand my genius" defense.

The proof is in the pudding I have already been serving, you just refuse to eat it. Its too hard for you to digest.

Followed closely by the "You're just not able to understand my genius" defense AGAIN.

Thats like giving a blind man a map to a city and expecting him to drive there. It can be plastered all in front of your face, but your consciousness is preconditioned not to see it, I already know this. The critical problem with Atheist is that they look at these studies and decide before hand to automatically find discrepencys, they are naturally imperceptible to this truth, they think they are after solution learning, but they are really after the suppression of this truth in their minds, even though their mouths ask for evidence, really expecting no evidence to penertrate them. And I am not one to force feed.

I've been following this thread closely. All i've seen is personal opinion which let's face it, when it's all boiled down, is an incredibly lame attempt to fit the FACTS supporting an evolving human race into your own personal mythology.

Perhaps i should have added a qualifier to my question.

Do you have any evidence to back up your assertions in this thread, that don't come from your own mind?

 

[Valjean]

Mickiel, your contention is that conscious minds inevitably produce civilizations and, hence, an uncivillized society is clear evidence its members lack consciousness.

How then do you explain the fact that anthropoligists have examined hundreds of primative, uncivilized societies, many which have existed unchanged for centuries or even millenia, and in no case have they encountered unconscious automatons?
These 'stone age' peoples are just as conscious and intelligent as your average New Yorker or Muscovite.

 

[Baydwin]

Mickiel, your contention is that conscious minds inevitably produce civilizations and, hence, an uncivillized society is clear evidence its members lack consciousness.

How then do you explain the fact that anthropoligists have examined hundreds of primative, uncivilized societies, many which have existed unchanged for centuries or even millenia, and in no case have they encountered unconscious automatons?
These 'stone age' peoples are just as conscious and intelligent as your average New Yorker or Muscovite.

Nicely worded post. Though from the look of this thread, you might as well be trying to explain the internal combustion engine to a wombat.

 

[Amill]

Neanderthals and Cromagnon humans were automotons basically, with highly developed instincts. They never established civilization, because Civilization is a result of Consciousness. They had no Agriculture, no Wars, no schools or educational systems, no transportation, no religion, no Government, no Language, because all those things are the result of Consciousness. God didnot want those things developed in Primordal man, because they were the " Breeding ground and forerunners OF those things to come."

And I want to go into that.

Peace.

So they had "instincts" that told them how to build tools, "instincts" that told them to bury their dead and place objects in their graves with them, "instincts" told them to build fires....ect? You claimed to someone else that you had given proof of these things, but it's just circular reasoning.
Your posts go basically like this:
Cavemen didn't have consciousness, because they had no civilization. They had no civilization because they had no consciousness.
You don't actually go into detail or provide proof that they didn't have "civilizations". You give us characteristics of what being civilized would mean(religion, government) but where is your proof that they had none of these things? If they had a leader of their group, does that not count as government? How could we know if they had language or not, or had a social structure? You just assume because they didn't have large societies or structures that they must have not had consciousness. Many people in this thread have even given you examples of socieities in this day and age that do not have some of those things you mentioned. There is a village that has no religion, others that don't have wars or schools, ect. Are these people not conscious humans?

 

[mickiel]

Mickiel...


someone who has awakened to the knowledge from within. They experience the supernatural and seek out what it all means! They communicate on higher levels! If they are aware of it or not.
Natural Lucifarians know no books but know knowledge from the Higherself or the real you, that most intelligent part. I beleive that a lot of it is passed on through d.n.a.
The origin/sourse! Hmmm maybe the first mind that realised that the mind manifests will and intent etc the one who realised subconscious communication... Lucifer 9.. is this thing a God... alot to do with our subconscious manifests Gods etc but we are our own God and is our aim to become as one with the real us... to attain our FULL potential.

Hope this helps.
Power to your dreams m8.
David69

ps... the black pantha resinates with me in a big way!!!
Why did you choose this avatar?

Because I am Black.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

Mickiel, your contention is that conscious minds inevitably produce civilizations and, hence, an uncivillized society is clear evidence its members lack consciousness.

How then do you explain the fact that anthropoligists have examined hundreds of primative, uncivilized societies, many which have existed unchanged for centuries or even millenia, and in no case have they encountered unconscious automatons?
These 'stone age' peoples are just as conscious and intelligent as your average New Yorker or Muscovite.

Well your point is well taken, and I agree. I mean a " Wide scope of Civilization" comes from Consciousness, not to exclude the uncivilized peoples. But they have Agriculture of some type, which is Consciousness, they have Language at some level, which is Consciousness, they have many levels of medicines which is Consciousness and they have wars and tribal disputes, which is Consciousness, Primordal man had none of these.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

So they had "instincts" that told them how to build tools, "instincts" that told them to bury their dead and place objects in their graves with them, "instincts" told them to build fires....ect? You claimed to someone else that you had given proof of these things, but it's just circular reasoning.
Your posts go basically like this:
Cavemen didn't have consciousness, because they had no civilization. They had no civilization because they had no consciousness.
You don't actually go into detail or provide proof that they didn't have "civilizations". You give us characteristics of what being civilized would mean(religion, government) but where is your proof that they had none of these things? If they had a leader of their group, does that not count as government? How could we know if they had language or not, or had a social structure? You just assume because they didn't have large societies or structures that they must have not had consciousness. Many people in this thread have even given you examples of socieities in this day and age that do not have some of those things you mentioned. There is a village that has no religion, others that don't have wars or schools, ect. Are these people not conscious humans?[/quote

Well I understand you, but I have listed the proofs time and time again, you just do not accept them at face value. It is said that you are innocent until proven quilty, in my view, Primordal man was not Conscious, until proven otherwise. Digging graves is an instinct, in my view, animals do it. But when we unearth a grave that has Pots and pans, Jewelry, Chariots, money and written tablets within it, to me, those are signs of Consciousness, the graves of Primordal man had no such things included. The lack of these things, is evidence and proof of no Consciousness.

Just evidence that you cannot comprehend or accept.

Peace.

 

[David69]

Because I am Black.

Peace.

I might change my avatar to an ice cream because I am white

I might of been impressed if you had of said that the black pantha is your guide or something!