Consciousness in Cavemen? A Debate.

[mickiel]

This is a well-documented, established, scientific fact. If you do not accept it, you are denying reality.

I do not accept that these are examples of evolution currently occuring in humanity. I view evolution in the same vein as pupi to butterfy, total change in species. There is no total change in humanity, we are not evolving, we are not changing, we stay the same.

If humanity last another 10,000 years, there will be no change, as there has been none in the last 10,000 years. There exist nothing in this world of knowledge that you can produce to change these facts.

But you think there is. I think not. Why frustrate yourself with how I think? Take your thoughts, embrace them, and deal with others who view it as you do.

I walk alone, think alone, and will trust only my thoughts as we embrace the comming future.

And there is absolutely nothing you can do about this.

Peace.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I do not accept that these are examples of evolution currently occuring in humanity. I view evolution in the same vein as pupi to butterfy, total change in species. There is no total change in humanity, we are not evolving, we are not changing, we stay the same.

Then your view of evolution is also wrong.

What we observe in humanity is exactly the same as what we observe in every other animal in the animal kingdom: slight genetic variation from generation to generation which add up to larger changes in populations over time.

It's really very simple: all evolution takes to occur is genetic mutation and environmental attrition. Humans are subject to genetic mutation, fact. Humans are also subject to environmental attrition, fact. What is it that you propose stops evolution from occuring, if all it takes is these two things for evolution to occur.

See, what you expect is for human populations to entirely change species, but evolution occurs - particularly in species such as humans which reproduce relatively slowly - over many, many, many years. What we would expect to find, instead, is slight genetic variation in humans that is passed throughout populations. And this is what we observe and, regardless of whatever skewed definition of evolution you go by, it is the very process of evolution.

Humans evolve. This is a fact.

If humanity last another 10,000 years, there will be no change, as there has been none in the last 10,000 years. There exist nothing in this world of knowledge that you can produce to change these facts.

Maybe, but when you go back more than 10,000 years you'll find that humanity has changed quite a great deal. The only issue here is not with the evidence - it's the limited scope that you apply to it.

But you think there is. I think not. Why frustrate yourself with how I think? Take your thoughts, embrace them, and deal with others who view it as you do.

Because I happen to think it's important that what people accept is true. What's more, you've made a series of patently false claims (such as "there is no genetic variation in humans") which show a near pathological denial of reality in favor of personal delusion. I don't think that's healthy, so I'm making an attempt to educate you.

I walk alone, think alone, and will trust only my thoughts as we embrace the comming future.

Then you are blind.

And there is absolutely nothing you can do about this.

Translation: "I don't care if I'm right or wrong, I will continue doing and saying what I like and denying anything that says differently - regardless of whether or not they are correct".

You just admitted that you do not accept reality. If this really is the case, then you're right. It's meaningless trying to debate you before you finally realize your own delusion and begin to accept reality.

 

[mickiel]

I do not need your education, I am satisfied with mine. I am sure there are others here you can teach, but my path does not have room for teachers, I walk alone, study alone, and will come to the knowledge of the truth, alone.

And would have it no other way. I want no interference from humans in my mind.

One day I am to know God, destined to know him, just not today. And when that time comes, I want no human meddling within my mind.

My mind tells me that you are wrong, yours tells you that I am wrong,

Just go your way in Peace. I go my way in Peace with you also.

I have enjoyed the conversation and debate.

Peace.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I do not need your education, I am satisfied with mine. I am sure there are others here you can teach, but my path does not have room for teachers, I walk alone, study alone, and will come to the knowledge of the truth, alone.

And would have it no other way. I want no interference from humans in my mind.

Well, your journey has lead to you believing that there is no genetic variation in humans - something which is demonstrably false.

Perhaps you should take a different path. Try listening to people - especially people who know more about a subject than you do. That's how people learn.

One day I am to know God, destined to know him, just not today. And when that time comes, I want no human meddling within my mind.

My mind tells me that you are wrong, yours tells you that I am wrong,

Not just my mind - reality tells you that you are wrong.

Why is it so hard for you to admit that?

Just go your way in Peace. I go my way in Peace with you also.

I have enjoyed the conversation and debate.

It's pretty difficult for you to come off as sincere right now when you're the one who started this thread about debating consciousness in cavemen. Yet now you're saying that you won't let anyone teach you anything, you refuse to listen to anything anyone says, and that you wish to simply "walk your path in peace".

If you didn't want a debate, don't start a debate thread on a debate forum. Quite clearly what has happened here is that you made a series of unsupported claims, we demonstrated that they were false, and now you're simply playing deaf, blind and dumb rather than accept the truth.

 

[JustWondering2]

Immortallflame:
Exactly what I was thinking! Why start a debate, unless your goal in doing so was to stip up trouble. I wise man continues to learn all his life, a fool refuses to listen to reason. In other words don't ask a question and for others opinion, knowing your mind is already made up and that you are going to ignore the advice given!
Sound like he knows he is out gunned and is just going to walk away rather than defend his position.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

Wait for it.

This is where Mick will come back with his "this evidence is only for me defense".

You're new you havent seen Mick's "Proof of God" threads.

They eventually got condensed into one because there was so many of them. Then that one got closed down because no one would agree with him and he started getting abusive.

-Q

 

[mickiel]

If you didn't want a debate, don't start a debate thread on a debate forum. Quite clearly what has happened here is that you made a series of unsupported claims, we demonstrated that they were false, and now you're simply playing deaf, blind and dumb rather than accept the truth.

Oh I like debate, when it makes sense. Its just sad to see you try to fit circles into squares, swing at knats, and then claim mutation is proof of evolution. I just grow tired of such efforts in uselessness and quickly loose intrest.

The debate is already started, I just am no longer interested in whats being bantered forth in front of me, so I will continue in a different direction. And talk to myself for a bit, thats always interesting.

Peace.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

The debate is already started, I just am no longer interested in whats being bantered forth in front of me, so I will continue in a different direction. And talk to myself for a bit, thats always interesting.

I've said it before and i'll say it again

So his new defense mechanism is to change the views that people have refuted. I'm going to call this the "i'm losing so i'm gonna change my ideas" defense.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Oh I like debate, when it makes sense. Its just sad to see you try to fit circles into squares, swing at knats, and then claim mutation is proof of evolution. I just grow tired of such efforts in uselessness and quickly loose intrest.

In other words, you're not interested in hearing opinions that differ from your own.

Also, I never once used the word "proof" or "prove". My issue this whole time has been with your lack of understanding of evolution and your denial of a very basic fact of modern genetics that I have already demonstrated to you.

The debate is already started, I just am no longer interested in whats being bantered forth in front of me, so I will continue in a different direction. And talk to myself for a bit, thats always interesting.

Well, talking to yourself is all you ever seem capable of doing.

 

[JustWondering2]

Talking to himself. That way he doesn't loose the arguement!! Maybe.

 

[mickiel]

I've said it before and i'll say it again

I do change my ideas when I understand them as being wrong, but I have to understand that first.

Once I understand my views are wrong, I like to change for the better.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

In other words, you're not interested in hearing opinions that differ from your own.

Also, I never once used the word "proof" or "prove". My issue this whole time has been with your lack of understanding of evolution and your denial of a very basic fact of modern genetics that I have already demonstrated to you.


Well, talking to yourself is all you ever seem capable of doing.

I saw what you demonstrated, and I never denied the things you showed, I learned them, but simply do not consider them as evolution of our species. They are mutations, yes, but evolution, no, I don't view mutation as evolution. Variation is not evolution, its mutated variety. I agree that its a true thing, you have shown that to my satisfaction, but not evidence that our species is currently evolving into a new species.

In my view, to show evolution of humans, a much larger gap must be displayed, we have to make a bigger jump in change, than miniscue advancements.

In example; If a whole group of humans went to sleep and woke up the next day with ingrown wings, without any added interference to cause it, well now THATS evolution.

I have never seen this kind of development in my lifetime, nor in the past.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

Wait for it.

This is where Mick will come back with his "this evidence is only for me defense".

You're new you havent seen Mick's "Proof of God" threads.

They eventually got condensed into one because there was so many of them. Then that one got closed down because no one would agree with him and he started getting abusive.

-Q

That thread was a classic, in my view. And many have emailed me saying so. But I admit to being upset with others, as they came at me over and over again. I don't know why they closed it, never asked, and never will.

But I will take the blame for it, I must learn not to attack, in response to those who attack me.

Thats hard for me to do, but I am improving.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

The whole panoramic view of curious humanity, was preset to be thrown offbase , judging by the creation of Primordal man. Why start humanity off like that. Why does God begin his Great creation of humanity, with simple minded unconscious men? This question baffles me with no end in sight! Why? I mean what common sense can we glean from this?

And I want to get into what sense we can make of it.

Peace.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

That thread was a classic, in my view. And many have emailed me saying so. But I admit to being upset with others, as they came at me over and over again. I don't know why they closed it, never asked, and never will.

But I will take the blame for it, I must learn not to attack, in response to those who attack me.

Thats hard for me to do, but I am improving.

Peace.

it could be said you're evolving

hehehe

 

[The Neo Nerd]

The whole panoramic view of curious humanity, was preset to be thrown offbase , judging by the creation of Primordal man. Why start humanity off like that. Why does God begin his Great creation of humanity, with simple minded unconscious men? This question baffles me with no end in sight! Why? I mean what common sense can we glean from this?

And I want to get into what sense we can make of it.

Peace.

If you are indeed correct, and I'm not willing to say you are until I see some evidence, but for the sake of this argument let's just assume that 'cavemen' had no consciousness. Then you are correct it does not make any sense.

However considering the scriptural evidence so does your theory that god created two sets of humans. Considering god is all knowing he would have made them right the first time.

So the 'logical' conclusion is that bible is incorrect or there was no creation event.

And I would really really like to go into this discrepancy.

-q

 

[mickiel]

If you are indeed correct, and I'm not willing to say you are until I see some evidence, but for the sake of this argument let's just assume that 'cavemen' had no consciousness. Then you are correct it does not make any sense.

However considering the scriptural evidence so does your theory that god created two sets of humans. Considering god is all knowing he would have made them right the first time.

So the 'logical' conclusion is that bible is incorrect or there was no creation event.

And I would really really like to go into this discrepancy.

-q

Well actually there are two creations of humans recorded in Genesis. The first in Gen. 1:27, the second in Gen. 2:7. I am confused by this, because those in 2:7 are most likely Primordal man, just physical beings formed from dust. The one in 1:27, was made in Gods image, which means they were given consciousness. Really, these two are backwards, 2:7, should have been created first, and then those in 1:27 much later. But I can't figure it out.

I think it was mistranslated, those created from the dust, I think were Primordal. And I think the creation days, were not literal days as we measure them, but actually lasted thousands of years inbetween each other.

I don't know though, its quite confusing, but I am looking at it each day.

Peace.

 

[mickiel]

It is possible that God created Primordal man first, during one of his creation efforts, and they were actually living on earth BEFORE God finished his creation of the earth and the Universe. I think the creation " Days", actually lasted hundreds of thousands of " Earth Years", as we measure them. Yet to God, it was not a matter of " Time", it is said in the bible that 1,000 years is like a day to him. Or really he is not limited by a measurement of time. So each creation day, could have lasted millions of our years.

As far as God being " All Knowing", I don't think he was interested in his creation of humanity to be " Perfect from its conception", so he created them at a level he wanted them at. Case in point; when he created animals, he brought each of them to Adam, to see what Adam would call them. God could have named them himself, but he was more interested in what Adam would name them.

As I think he was interested in how Primordal man would carrty himself during those long years of their existence, then he learned from that how they would be before he gave out Consciousness, which gave him a much better understanding of how we would handle Consciousness.

But again, I can only speculate on it.

Peace.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

I saw what you demonstrated, and I never denied the things you showed, I learned them, but simply do not consider them as evolution of our species. They are mutations, yes, but evolution, no, I don't view mutation as evolution. Variation is not evolution, its mutated variety. I agree that its a true thing, you have shown that to my satisfaction, but not evidence that our species is currently evolving into a new species.

In my view, to show evolution of humans, a much larger gap must be displayed, we have to make a bigger jump in change, than miniscue advancements.

Then obviously you do not understand evolution.

I have already demonstrated to you that humans are subject to genetic mutation and variation, as well as environmental attrition. This variation has also been shown to you to cause populations to develop unique genetic traits over time. Now, whether or not you count this as evolution - it is undeniably evolution, since no other process can produce these effects. These are all things that we have also observed in animals that have evolved above the species barrier.

So, since we humans are subject to all the exact same forces and changes that cause all other living things to evolve: can you give me one good reason why humans do not evolve? In other words, since humans are subject to all of the things that cause evolution, what, in your opinion, prevents it?

In example; If a whole group of humans went to sleep and woke up the next day with ingrown wings, without any added interference to cause it, well now THATS evolution.

No, that would be a hugely bizarre event that flies in the face of biology - that would certainly NOT be evolution. Again, you clearly do not understand even the basic facts of evolution.

I have told you this dozens of times now, but it bears repeating: evolution is a very slow process of mutations in the genetic code (mutations that we know occur in humans) adding up through generation after generation until it results in populations sharing and developing unique genetic traits (again, this is known to occur in humans). Over especially long periods of time, this can lead to populations changing so much that they can be classed as a separate species to their ancestors (once again, this is known to occur in the human fossil record).

Now, considering all of the above, what evidence would it take to convince you that evolution does occur?

 

[The Neo Nerd]

I think your problem with genetic mutations be the mechanism of evolution is the time it happened.

If you look at the classical 6000 year creation then there is no time for evolution to have happened. But the scientific evidence points a much much older earth. In this time frame evolution is more probable.

And also please note that evolution in no way disproves the existence nor does it try to and a lot of theists have been told that it does and can't get it out of their head. It is a theory based on a vast amount of information And I know you're smart enough to understand this difference and can approach the subject with an open intelligent mind.