Consciousness

[Truly Enlightened]

According to you, your brain creates your reality, including who you are, right? So, essentially, you are your brain. Is that correct?

It is this sort of nonsense that keeps my inside the cave. Do you really think that the physical brain can create reality? I want you to think real hard(even meditate real hard). I want you to try to mentally create an apple. Do you think you can do that, or would you need to start with something a little easier first? The physical brain creates nothing. It can only represent to the conscious mind sensory inputs from its connected sense organs. It can't create its own signals. It would be more fair to interpret "self" as the result of genetic and allele expression and repression, depending on the environment. Why would you think that someone could be their brain? Why could they not be their heart, their liver, or their lungs? All are organ systems within the body.

 

[godnotgod]

It is this sort of nonsense that keeps my inside the cave. Do you really think that the physical brain can create reality? I want you to think real hard(even meditate real hard). I want you to try to mentally create an apple. Do you think you can do that, or would you need to start with something a little easier first? The physical brain creates nothing. It can only represent to the conscious mind sensory inputs from its connected sense organs. It can't create its own signals. It would be more fair to interpret "self" as the result of genetic and allele expression and repression, depending on the environment. Why would you think that someone could be their brain? Why could they not be their heart, their liver, or their lungs? All are organ systems within the body.

I did not say the brain creates physical reality; I said it creates YOUR reality, ie; the idea of who and what you are. And that is exactly why atanu asked if he was insulting your brain.

Why do you allow nonsense to dictate that you stay inside your cave? But at least we now know that you admit to being in the cave, while refusing to allow for any other possible experience, maybe one that is much larger in scope than those dancing cave wall shadows you call 'reality'. More like 'through a glass darkly'. Know that the mystic regards this 'material' world as a world of shadows and appearances, and those who cling to it as reality have been bamboozled. So why would he say that? In the same sense that, when you awaken from a dream, your 'awakened' mind tells you immediately that the nature of the dream world is illusory. So, too, when you experience a higher awakening (ie; one outside the cave) will you see that what you only perceived as 'material reality' is a dream of a higher caliber. But your science itself is already telling you something to that effect. Quantum Physics says that what you think to be a 'material world' is actually a 'superposition of possibilities'. Add to this the view of some cutting edge scientists who are saying that all particles in the universe are standing waves. However, even Quantum physicists don't get that yet, still being firmly attached to the old materialist paradigm as they are. Newtonian billiard ball mechanics has been overturned.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

I did not say the brain creates physical reality; I said it creates YOUR reality, ie; the idea of who and what you are. And that is exactly why atanu asked if he was insulting your brain.

Why do you allow nonsense to dictate that you stay inside your cave? But at least we now know that you admit to being in the cave, while refusing to allow for any other possible experience, maybe one that is much larger in scope than those dancing cave wall shadows you call 'reality'. More like 'through a glass darkly'. Know that the mystic regards this 'material' world as a world of shadows and appearances, and those who cling to it as reality have been bamboozled. So why would he say that? In the same sense that, when you awaken from a dream, your 'awakened' mind tells you immediately that the nature of the dream world is illusory. So, too, when you experience a higher awakening (ie; one outside the cave) will you see that what you only perceived as 'material reality' is a dream of a higher caliber. But your science itself is already telling you something to that effect. Quantum Physics says that what you think to be a 'material world' is actually a 'superposition of possibilities'. Add to this the view of some cutting edge scientists who are saying that all particles in the universe are standing waves. However, even Quantum physicists don't get that yet, still being firmly attached to the old materialist paradigm as they are. Newtonian billiard ball mechanics has been overturned.

Stop making up BS. Newtonian Physics simply don't apply to quantum particles because of the uncertainty principle and gravity. But the Laws of Quantum Mechanics do apply. Basically there is empty space between subatomic particles, but there are some subtleties you forgot to mention. Since the electron or photons exhibit wavelike properties, this space is not exactly empty(s-orbital). In the quantum field theory we would say that these particles are constantly exchanging photons (in electromagnetic force), or heavy gauge bosons (in the weak force), or gluons(in the strong nuclear force). Therefore you might say that the otherwise "empty space" between the electrons and nucleus is filled with these quanta carrying forces. What exactly are you trying to say? You keep parroting "empty space", and "standing waves". So what?

I do not literally live in a real cave. It was meant to be an analogy to represents choice. I choose science, logic, intuition, facts and the evidence. You claim that these are all just shadows on the cave wall, and holding me back from accepting another reality. You offer me word salad, fallacious arguments, subjective experiences, testimonials, misrepresentations, intellectual dishonesty, unsupported truth claims, and no objective evidence of any kind. Just a simple carrot on a stick, saying "try it, you'll like it". I couldn't care less what any mystic says, any more than that special person trying to save my soul at the subway station. Maybe we all should get our drugs from an addict, and not from a chemist(pharmacists)? Which do you think will give out the best advice?

This is becoming pointless, since you refuse to answer any of my questions, and will use anything I say as a platform to editorialize. You provide zero evidence to support your "higher awakening", or anything metaphysical. If you enjoy experiencing only how the brain responds using the body's own natural law of compensation, then enjoy yourself. It's none of my business. Although I personally prefer to read a good book and cuddle up with "Jack", for my escapism and introspection. As I've said before, whatever works for you!

 

[godnotgod]

Stop making up BS. Newtonian Physics simply don't apply to quantum particles because of the uncertainty principle and gravity. But the Laws of Quantum Mechanics do apply. Basically there is empty space between subatomic particles, but there are some subtleties you forgot to mention. Since the electron or photons exhibit wavelike properties, this space is not exactly empty(s-orbital). In the quantum field theory we would say that these particles are constantly exchanging photons (in electromagnetic force), or heavy gauge bosons (in the weak force), or gluons(in the strong nuclear force). Therefore you might say that the otherwise "empty space" between the electrons and nucleus is filled with these quanta carrying forces. What exactly are you trying to say? You keep parroting "empty space", and "standing waves". So what?

I do not literally live in a real cave. It was meant to be an analogy to represents choice. I choose science, logic, intuition, facts and the evidence. You claim that these are all just shadows on the cave wall, and holding me back from accepting another reality. You offer me word salad, fallacious arguments, subjective experiences, testimonials, misrepresentations, intellectual dishonesty, unsupported truth claims, and no objective evidence of any kind. Just a simple carrot on a stick, saying "try it, you'll like it". I couldn't care less what any mystic says, any more than that special person trying to save my soul at the subway station. Maybe we all should get our drugs from an addict, and not from a chemist(pharmacists)? Which do you think will give out the best advice?

Excuse me, but unlike the guy at the subway station, the mystic is not interested in converting you to any doctrine. What the mystic points to is like a cool refreshing mountain spring. You can partake of its waters or simply travel on. The spring just continues to bubble forth its waters. But I was simply trying to illustrate to you why the mystic regards this 'material' world as illusion. Most people would be interested, but your attitude points to some kind of anger within you. "I could care less, and blah blah, blah!"

No, the cave wall shadows are not holding you back; YOU are, because you cling to them as if they are the only kind of valid knowledge. They are shadows and appearances because they are all about what you call 'material' reality, which is not so 'material' after all. Perceptual reality is faulty and limited. These scratchings upon the surface of Reality are only about descriptions and concepts. I am not saying they're wrong; but they provide an incorrect view of the whole as to the nature of the whole. Descriptions of Reality are not That which they are attempting to describe.

Of course I know you don't literally live in a cave. But you do live inside the mental cave of Logic, Reason, and Analysis, and just like the prisoners in Plato's Cave, think them to represent the true nature of Reality. They represent a highly conditioned view of unconditioned Reality, and as such, only create paradox, since nature itself is non-rational. IOW, there is nothing to figure out, though men try and try and try.

So what? Once again: 'All known particles in the universe are standing waves.' There are no material particles. It only appears that there are. The material world is an illusion. This is what the realized mystic has been telling us for over 4000 years. The only true Reality is CONSCIOUSNESS, out of which the illusion of a material reality is being manifested.

I post here the quote from Einstein re: the point particle once again for your consideration:

Unknown to many of us, it is a fact that Einstein rejected the discrete point particle and stated that matter must be spherical entities extended in space. He writes:

"Physical objects are not in space, but these objects are spatially extended. In this way the concept "empty space" loses its meaning. Since the theory of general relativity implies the representation of physical reality by a continuous field, the concept of particles or material points cannot play a fundamental part, nor can the concept of motion. The particle can only appear as a limited region in space in which the field strength or the energy density are particularly high."

http://www.blazelabs.com/f-p-flaw.asp

Like the surrounding field which is the source of the 'particle', so too, we are the result of a surrounding field, which we move about in every moment of the day and night. Our existence; our being, is all about the surrounding field, but the ego thinks IT is the primary mover. That would be like the ocean wave, were it capable of thought, to claim that IT is the source of its 'waving', or the snowflake asserting that it is the source of it's existence.

Newtonian physics represented the world in terms of how billiard balls behave, hence: 'billiard ball mechanics':

"I was born long after quantum physics, yet what I was taught in school was still essentially the world according to Isaac Newton, who died in the 17th century. It was a beautiful world of baby billiard balls, joined together like tinker toys by gravitational and electromagnetic forces at every level. From the configurations of atoms and their molecules, to the bonds of chemistry, to the arrangement of stars and planets. But as well as it all works, it turns out that classical physics does a great job describing the way things generally work, just not how--or why--they are the way they are. That's deeper stuff.


The Field of Emergent Human Consciousness is a Quantum Field

The reliable, life-sized surface of Newton's world has left us with the tradition of scientific materialism, which is the idea that consciousness spontaneously arose from the complexities of simple matter. But the incredibly reliable, unimaginably minute world of quantum mechanics has demonstrated that the opposite is true--that matter is really waves of energy, bound in fields, awaiting consciousness to collapse it into its many forms. In this sense, the precision of quantum physics demonstrates that consciousness is a fundamental, preexisting process in the universe, and matter like ourselves, our Earth and heavens, are just forms generating its expression."

Part Two: “The Force” is Awake – Global Consciousness, We Are

Q: Since what we call 'the atom' is over 99.9999....% 'empty space', has the possibility ever occurred to you that maybe...just maybe...the source of the rest of the atom is that very empty space itself, considering that it is the overwhelming major makeup of the entire atom? We DO know that particles are created by fluctuations in the surrounding fields, and that means that it is the FIELD that is all important in terms of the existence of the 'particle'.

 

[godnotgod]

 

[Truly Enlightened]

Excuse me, but unlike the guy at the subway station, the mystic is not interested in converting you to any doctrine. What the mystic points to is like a cool refreshing mountain spring. You can partake of its waters or simply travel on. The spring just continues to bubble forth its waters. But I was simply trying to illustrate to you why the mystic regards this 'material' world as illusion. Most people would be interested, but your attitude points to some kind of anger within you. "I could care less, and blah blah, blah!"

No, the cave wall shadows are not holding you back; YOU are, because you cling to them as if they are the only kind of valid knowledge. They are shadows and appearances because they are all about what you call 'material' reality, which is not so 'material' after all. Perceptual reality is faulty and limited. These scratchings upon the surface of Reality are only about descriptions and concepts. I am not saying they're wrong; but they provide an incorrect view of the whole as to the nature of the whole. Descriptions of Reality are not That which they are attempting to describe.

Of course I know you don't literally live in a cave. But you do live inside the mental cave of Logic, Reason, and Analysis, and just like the prisoners in Plato's Cave, think them to represent the true nature of Reality. They represent a highly conditioned view of unconditioned Reality, and as such, only create paradox, since nature itself is non-rational. IOW, there is nothing to figure out, though men try and try and try.

So what? Once again: 'All known particles in the universe are standing waves.' There are no material particles. It only appears that there are. The material world is an illusion. This is what the realized mystic has been telling us for over 4000 years. The only true Reality is CONSCIOUSNESS, out of which the illusion of a material reality is being manifested.

I post here the quote from Einstein re: the point particle once again for your consideration:

Unknown to many of us, it is a fact that Einstein rejected the discrete point particle and stated that matter must be spherical entities extended in space. He writes:

"Physical objects are not in space, but these objects are spatially extended. In this way the concept "empty space" loses its meaning. Since the theory of general relativity implies the representation of physical reality by a continuous field, the concept of particles or material points cannot play a fundamental part, nor can the concept of motion. The particle can only appear as a limited region in space in which the field strength or the energy density are particularly high."

http://www.blazelabs.com/f-p-flaw.asp

Like the surrounding field which is the source of the 'particle', so too, we are the result of a surrounding field, which we move about in every moment of the day and night. Our existence; our being, is all about the surrounding field, but the ego thinks IT is the primary mover. That would be like the ocean wave, were it capable of thought, to claim that IT is the source of its 'waving', or the snowflake asserting that it is the source of it's existence.

Newtonian physics represented the world in terms of how billiard balls behave, hence: 'billiard ball mechanics':

"I was born long after quantum physics, yet what I was taught in school was still essentially the world according to Isaac Newton, who died in the 17th century. It was a beautiful world of baby billiard balls, joined together like tinker toys by gravitational and electromagnetic forces at every level. From the configurations of atoms and their molecules, to the bonds of chemistry, to the arrangement of stars and planets. But as well as it all works, it turns out that classical physics does a great job describing the way things generally work, just not how--or why--they are the way they are. That's deeper stuff.


The Field of Emergent Human Consciousness is a Quantum Field

The reliable, life-sized surface of Newton's world has left us with the tradition of scientific materialism, which is the idea that consciousness spontaneously arose from the complexities of simple matter. But the incredibly reliable, unimaginably minute world of quantum mechanics has demonstrated that the opposite is true--that matter is really waves of energy, bound in fields, awaiting consciousness to collapse it into its many forms. In this sense, the precision of quantum physics demonstrates that consciousness is a fundamental, preexisting process in the universe, and matter like ourselves, our Earth and heavens, are just forms generating its expression."

Part Two: “The Force” is Awake – Global Consciousness, We Are

Q: Since what we call 'the atom' is over 99.9999....% 'empty space', has the possibility ever occurred to you that maybe...just maybe...the source of the rest of the atom is that very empty space itself, considering that it is the overwhelming major makeup of the entire atom? We DO know that particles are created by fluctuations in the surrounding fields, and that means that it is the FIELD that is all important in terms of the existence of the 'particle'.

Might I suggest that you first finish Uni. Preferably in any science field. Then do your post-grad or some research work in Neural Anatomy, Neurology, Neuro Physiology, Physics, Biochemistry, or even an entry level course in Quantum Mechanics. Then submit at least one research paper for peer review. Since you have not answered any of my concerns, I assume you haven't done any of these things. Other than the ability to cut, copy, or paste from Google U. Unfortunately, few can objectively distinguish between what information is true, false, or just an opinion. Prior knowledge and understanding of the sciences is a very valuable prerequisite.

Maybe then you would know why and how Einstein quantum ideas were wrong? Maybe then you would know why sciences progresses off the backs of Giants. What we thought years ago, is not as relevant today. Maybe then you could explain what "matter" and wave mechanics have in common? Maybe then you can demonstrate a direct link between consciousness(human) and Quantum Mechanics? So what if atoms are mostly space? Do you even understand the importance of the strong nuclear force, or the atomic orbitals? Maybe you can explain the electro-chemical nature of a nerve impulse, and how the brain compartmentalize these signals. Don't worry, I really don't expect any answers from you, just more of the same silly unfounded assertions, based only on ignorance.

It is frustration and amazement that I feel, not anger. The more you talk, the more similar your rhetoric is to Creationism. They also look for gaps in scientific understandings to cherry-pick, and deposit their truth claims. They also stand on the heads of all things unfalsifiable. They also create their own logic and language to support their position. They also provide zero evidence, other than "you must believe or experience it first". They also are unaware of the obvious fallacies that they all commit. It is becoming quite clear, that there is no hope of having a rational argument here. Belief will always be the antithesis of facts and reason. It is like trying to get Sye Ten Bruggencant to stop parroting set phrases and fixed idioms. Obviously your belief is fixed, cognizant, and beyond reason. Therefore, I support whatever helps you to sleep well at night, or make you a better person.

 

[godnotgod]

Maybe then you would know why and how Einstein quantum ideas were wrong?

The quote from Einstein I provided actually supports cutting edge Quantum Physics re: particles as standing waves.
According to your science, do you think material particles actually exist as the basis for a real material world, or are what we are calling 'particles' actually energy waves appearing as material particles?

I referenced a link to Blaze Labs re: particles. Is their research not science?

 

[godnotgod]

Might I suggest that you first finish Uni. Preferably in any science field. Then do your post-grad or some research work in Neural Anatomy, Neurology, Neuro Physiology, Physics, Biochemistry, or even an entry level course in Quantum Mechanics. Then submit at least one research paper for peer review. Since you have not answered any of my concerns, I assume you haven't done any of these things. Other than the ability to cut, copy, or paste from Google U. Unfortunately, few can objectively distinguish between what information is true, false, or just an opinion. Prior knowledge and understanding of the sciences is a very valuable prerequisite.

Maybe then you would know why and how Einstein quantum ideas were wrong? Maybe then you would know why sciences progresses off the backs of Giants. What we thought years ago, is not as relevant today. Maybe then you could explain what "matter" and wave mechanics have in common? Maybe then you can demonstrate a direct link between consciousness(human) and Quantum Mechanics? So what if atoms are mostly space? Do you even understand the importance of the strong nuclear force, or the atomic orbitals? Maybe you can explain the electro-chemical nature of a nerve impulse, and how the brain compartmentalize these signals. Don't worry, I really don't expect any answers from you, just more of the same silly unfounded assertions, based only on ignorance.

Unfortunately, the scientific world is not as 'scientific' as you might wish it to be.

"...The most efficient tool for perpetuating the current paradigm and for avoiding any change, has been the so-called peer review system. Originally peer review procedure was aimed to ensure consistent high quality of published papers, but more often than not, the review procedure is in effect dumping the work of those scientists that do not concord with the current paradigms, and thus effectively prevents change and progress in science. Luckily, the exchange of information through the internet is helping to overcome the information exchange bottleneck created by the peer review scientific press. I hope this page may also contribute to open some minds to the fact that sometimes there is a need to disregard present paradigms and start thinking all over from a new point of view. My aim is thus to provide you with new raw ideas & experimental proof of new fundamentals, thus initiating your thinking process, and where possible setting up small experiments for anyone to replicate the results."

ZPEnergy.com - Blaze Labs Research

 

[Truly Enlightened]

The quote from Einstein I provided actually supports cutting edge Quantum Physics re: particles as standing waves.
According to your science, do you think material particles actually exist as the basis for a real material world, or are what we are calling 'particles' actually energy waves appearing as material particles?

I referenced a link to Blaze Labs re: particles. Is their research not science?

Let me help you out, before to put more words into my mouth, and argue as though I said them. are particles standing waves - Norton Safe Search (5th video down). Einstein has made a contribution to Quantum Mechanics(special relativity), albeit indirectly. He didn't think much of quantum tunneling, superposition, gravitational lensing, and quantum entanglement, although they were all predicted in his Theory. He knew that Quantum Mechanics was correct, but he just couldn't explain why the results were so correct. This of course left a gap in understanding for people like you to deposit their own self-serving factless ideas. The difference being that the predicted results were experimentally verified and peer reviewed. These results have led to many practical applications of Quantum Mechanics, including computer science, information technology, microscopy, cesium clocks, the electromagnetic field and microwave technology. What practical applications, peer reviewed papers, or experimental validations, can I associate with a universal consciousness, unconsciousness, empty space, realms of existence, or anything metaphysical? I didn't think so.

You are no different than any other "snake-oil" salesman, trying to exploit gaps in our current scientific understanding, and then calling it deceptively as just a new way of thinking. For those of us who have sacrificed 35 years searching for answers that are consistent with the data, the idea of metaphysical explanations can only create more questions than answers.

You are correct. There will always be a percentage of people who will easily succumb to the mystique and language of your fallacy-riddled logic. To many if it sounds good, then it must be true. Science just doesn't work that way. If I understand how 90% of something works, why would I invoke the metaphysical to fill in the other 10%? What's wrong with "I just don't know". Why should I listen to you? What evidence have you presented? What practical application does any altered state of consciousness/mind produce? What is the end goal for breaking the shackles of a limited perceptual reality? What is your evidence that the material world is all just an illusion(other than mystics say so)? Again, I don't expect any answers, since your special brand of pseudo-sophistry can only appeal to intuition(a fallacy), not science.

 

[ajay0]

What practical application does any altered state of consciousness/mind produce? What is the end goal for breaking the shackles of a limited perceptual reality?

A higher state of consciousness is considered in ancient eastern philosophy and psychology to be associated with nonreactivity, compassion, harmony, mental equanimity and positivity while a lower state of consciousness is charecterised by reactivity, agitated mindset, depression , despair, conflict and other issues.

We in other countries keep reading regularly about young or old americans going berserk with their guns and shooting down total strangers and even family members for no apparent or conceivable reason whatsoever and used to wonder a lot about it! Apparently the issue is something to do with the state of consciousness, frankly speaking.

Perhaps meditation by 'altering the state of consciousness/mind' as you put it, can create a more peaceful, mentally equanimous and nonreactive culture or atmosphere over there.

Considering the fact that the west uses presently the Indian numeral system and mathematics for their scientific or material needs without any issues about its origin, they can do the same with respect to meditation as well for their own needs profitably.

 

[atanu]

So, is being facetious and flippant the only way you can avoid responding to my concerns? Or, do you really believe that a physical brain can be insulted? I'm certain that you know exactly what the "whom" is that is being insulted, no matter how desperately you try to conflate the obvious with your "rabbit-hole" pseudo-sophistry. If your experiences makes you feel good, enjoy it and share it with others. Just don't sell it as science.

No. Be a bit genuine. I asked you "To whom is the insult?". You may please answer that.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

No. Be a bit genuine. I asked you "To whom is the insult?". You may please answer that.

I am sorry, I thought you were just being facetious. I didn't think anyone would believe that any internal organ could be insulted, or even feel insulted. I was obviously wrong. When your child or loved one comes to you for advice and guidance because they feel hurt, are you going to ask them "is it their physical brain that feels hurt"? What do you think feels grief, anger, love, patience, pity, sorrow, etc.? The physical brain is just an organ. It is what it does that is important. It represents to what we call self("I", "consciousness", or whatever term you want to make up), a close approximation of what our outside environment really looks like. It also regulates our internal environment. Our emotions, personalities, intelligence, or beliefs, are controlled by our genes. Therefore, it is my genes that have made my conscious self("I") interpret your language, to mean that you are either being facetious or just insulting to my common sense.

So, instead of being esoteric and abstruse, Try being intellectually honest and genuine. What or whom did you think was being insulted by your question? My liver, my heart, my physical brain, or my self? Since you avoided again responding to any of my concerns, I can assume that I am correct about everything else.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

A higher state of consciousness is considered in ancient eastern philosophy and psychology to be associated with nonreactivity, compassion, harmony, mental equanimity and positivity while a lower state of consciousness is charecterised by reactivity, agitated mindset, depression , despair, conflict and other issues.

We in other countries keep reading regularly about young or old americans going berserk with their guns and shooting down total strangers and even family members for no apparent or conceivable reason whatsoever and used to wonder a lot about it! Apparently the issue is something to do with the state of consciousness, frankly speaking.

Perhaps meditation by 'altering the state of consciousness/mind' as you put it, can create a more peaceful, mentally equanimous and nonreactive culture or atmosphere over there.

Considering the fact that the west uses presently the Indian numeral system and mathematics for their scientific or material needs without any issues about its origin, they can do the same with respect to meditation as well for their own needs profitably.

I have never argued against the positive effects of meditation. These effects have been clearly documented. A Neuroscientist Explains What Happens To Your Brain When You Meditate . It is science in the since that it is just another stimulus to reshape the brain because of its "neuroplasticity". But so does any other behavior we chose to do(sleeping, drinking, running, smoking, eating disorders, etc.). Focusing the mind on part of the whole, or becoming the whole itself, is a subjective experience and can't be shared objectively. Although I do agree with the positive benefits of meditation, I still prefer Jack, Jim, and my old Jobey.

What I disagree with, is your alarmist false equivocation, and faulty conclusion. I don't believe that by altering the state of consciousness through meditation, would in some way reduce or eliminate these violent atrocities committed in our schools. You are just another victim of the media's violence image hype. If there were only ONE school shooting everyday for a year, that would be 365 school shootings in a year. People hearing this everyday for a year, in other countries might think America was certainly not a safe place to send children to school. Right? Now let's put this in perspective. There are over 230,000 schools, in over 20,000 cities in the US alone. The US has a population of over 330 Million people. Doing some very simple probability calculations, you have roughly a 0.0000036% chance of being at the wrong place at the wrong time. This means that 99.999964 people will not be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Therefore, the US is a very safe place to send your kids to school(regarding school shootings). It is much, much more likely that you would be killed by a terrorist, hit by an asteroid, die from chronic constipation, hit by lightning, or have a great white knock on you front door and attack your first born, then for you to be involved in a school shooting. So these events fall squarely within the realm of extremely isolated events. It would be like saying that if everyone meditated, there would be no traffic accident or fatalities. By taking these rare events out of perspective, you ignore other causal links that are attributable.

Not sure what the Hindu/Arabic numeral system have to do with meditation and the metaphysical. We use many different numerical systems today(binary, decimal, metric, ternary, hexadecimal, Roman, and even the Chinese numbering system). My point was the practicality of the metaphysical or any other subjective experience. What is its objective applications? In other words, what predictions can we make? What evidence can we look at? What mechanics of the metaphysical can we explain? And, what natural phenomenon can we cite or recognize as being related to the metaphysical? What is its logical purpose? As I've said before, whatever works for you.

 

[atanu]

I am sorry, I thought you were just being facetious. ....
The physical brain is just an organ. It is what it does that is important. It represents to what we call self("I", "consciousness", or whatever term you want to make up), a close approximation of what our outside environment really looks like. It also regulates our internal environment. Our emotions, personalities, intelligence, or beliefs, are controlled by our genes. Therefore, it is my genes that have made my conscious self("I") interpret your language, to mean that you are either being facetious or just insulting to my common sense.

I am not sure that I understand you.

Are you saying that it is our genes that make our ‘self’? Or do you mean that ‘self’ is an entity that is controlled by genes? Or something else....?

The question however remains. What feels insulted? If the self feels insulted then what is self?

Many however aver that there is no self but only chemical interactions in brain. I thought that you subscribed to this notion. So, I asked as to who feels ‘insult’ etc.?

 

[Truly Enlightened]

I am not sure that I understand you.

Are you saying that it is our genes that make our ‘self’? Or do you mean that ‘self’ is an entity that is controlled by genes? Or something else....?

The question however remains. What feels insulted? If the self feels insulted then what is self?

Many however aver that there is no self but only chemical interactions in brain. I thought that you subscribed to this notion. So, I asked as to who feels ‘insult’ etc.?

I gave you my answer twice. I have no idea why you keep asking the same silly question. Unless you're just hoping for a different answer. It's like asking what was the universe before time began? What was reality before there was reality? What did the Universe expand into? These are nonsense questions. What do you think "self" is? Is it not the subject that is being insulted? Do you think that it is not created by neurochemical processes within a physical brain? Who is the "You" that I am referring to when I ask "you" to stop and think? I take it that you were just being facetious, because you couldn't be serious.

What you and other of similar mind-sets can't seem to understand is that we are all human organisms. We are not greater than the sum of our parts. We are the total expression of billions of mini-organism(cells, organs, systems, organism). We were created from the union of two cells. We then grew to billions of cells, and eventually lose cells and die. Just like all other organism. We can never see ourselves in the objective, or through the eyes of another organism. We are truly trapped within our own subjective perspective, no matter how much we think we're not.

Our personality traits are controlled by our genes and hormones(Endocrine system). There are 5 basic traits in humans(openness, conscientiousness, extraversion, agreeableness, and neuroticism). Each of us fall somewhere along the continuum, stretching between the five sets of opposing human qualities and attributes. That is between; extraversion and introversion; emotional stability and neuroticism; conscientiousness and impulsivity; agreeableness and hostility; and open-mindedness and close-mindedness. It is how these inherited genes and alleles are expressed or repressed, that determines what our behavior and personality will become. Or did you think that our DNA codes only for our physical features?

So if all you're going to do is deflect my statement by playing terminology games, then you are embarrassing yourself and certainly insulting "me".

 

[godnotgod]

A higher state of consciousness is considered in ancient eastern philosophy and psychology to be associated with nonreactivity, compassion, harmony, mental equanimity and positivity while a lower state of consciousness is charecterised by reactivity, agitated mindset, depression , despair, conflict and other issues.

We in other countries keep reading regularly about young or old americans going berserk with their guns and shooting down total strangers and even family members for no apparent or conceivable reason whatsoever and used to wonder a lot about it! Apparently the issue is something to do with the state of consciousness, frankly speaking.

Perhaps meditation by 'altering the state of consciousness/mind' as you put it, can create a more peaceful, mentally equanimous and nonreactive culture or atmosphere over there.

Considering the fact that the west uses presently the Indian numeral system and mathematics for their scientific or material needs without any issues about its origin, they can do the same with respect to meditation as well for their own needs profitably.

Well said, ajay0. My brother, who did a lot of meditation practice, summed up the situation in a very Zen-like manner by stating that what we are witnessing in the gun-addicted West is akin to 'Big Monkeys with Big Toys' running around. Americans simply lack the psychological, emotional, and spiritual maturity to handle the technology they have devised. We are sold a bill of goods that makes us think that there is this wonderful exploration of space going on in the name of science, not realizing that the ultimate goal is the militarization of space, which is being directed by reptilian-brained madmen, who see the world in dead mechanistic terms ala machine that they can bulldoze around to suit their selfish materialistic agendas, which is simply 19th century colonialism on steroids.

 

[godnotgod]

Our personality traits are controlled by our genes and hormones..... It is how these inherited genes and alleles are expressed or repressed, that determines what our behavior and personality will become. Or did you think that our DNA codes only for our physical features?

Oh, BTW, did I forget to mention that who you really are is not determined by your biology OR your social indoctrination, but is transcendent of them. Your personality; your identity, is a fraud. Life is fiction. But you can only know that for certain via a radical transformation of consciousness; an awakening into a new world via Higher Consciousness.

 

[Truly Enlightened]

Oh, BTW, did I forget to mention that who you really are is not determined by your biology OR your social indoctrination, but is transcendent of them. Your personality; your identity, is a fraud. Life is fiction. But you can only know that for certain via a radical transformation of consciousness; an awakening into a new world via Higher Consciousness.

Riiiight!

 

[godnotgod]

Let me help you out, before to put more words into my mouth, and argue as though I said them. are particles standing waves - Norton Safe Search (5th video down).

The video you provided just confirms what I said: that particles, in this case, electrons, are, in reality, standing waves. In fact, it even stated that the electron cannot be a solid particle, as it would collide with the nucleus if it were.

Einstein has made a contribution to Quantum Mechanics(special relativity), albeit indirectly. He didn't think much of quantum tunneling, superposition, gravitational lensing, and quantum entanglement, although they were all predicted in his Theory. He knew that Quantum Mechanics was correct, but he just couldn't explain why the results were so correct.

Weyl, Clifford, Einstein, and Schroedinger agreed that the puzzle of matter would be found in the structure of space, not in point-like bits of matter. They speculated, "What we observe as material bodies and forces are nothing but shapes and variations in the structure of space. The complexity of physics and cosmology is just a special geometry." Perhaps it is about time we take such thoughts more seriously....Schrödinger assumed that the electron's behavior could be described by a three dimensional standing wave.

So Einstein and Schroedinger already really knew that there were no solid 'particles'. So what do I mean by making a point of this? Simply that the notion of solid particles is an illusion, which is what the East has told us for over 4000 years. It's called 'maya'.

The difference being that the predicted results were experimentally verified and peer reviewed.

Duh! The difference being that the East already knew centuries ago what science is just finding out, which is still just scratching the surface of Reality. And as I previously pointed out, such 'peer-reviewed' papers deliberately omit papers that do not fit into the current scientific paradigm, which, at the moment, is scientific materialism.

These results have led to many practical applications of Quantum Mechanics, including computer science, information technology, microscopy, cesium clocks, the electromagnetic field and microwave technology. What practical applications, peer reviewed papers, or experimental validations, can I associate with a universal consciousness, unconsciousness, empty space, realms of existence, or anything metaphysical? I didn't think so.

Try discovering all those applications without first having consciousness in place. Once again, to reiterate Planck: 'consciousness is the fundamental reality'.

Yes, science has great utility, but still completely fails to have a real understanding as to the true nature of Reality. The more it tries, the more paradox it creates for itself and the public. It knows what nature does and how to make predictions, but it does not have a clue as to what nature actually IS.

"We create a certain [scientific] theory and then there is the honeymoon with the theory. For a few years things go perfectly well. Then reality asserts itself. Reality brings up a few things and the theory gets into difficulty because we had excluded a few facts. Those facts will protest, they will sabotage your theory, they will assert themselves. In the eighteenth century science was absolutely certain, now it is certain no more. Now a new theory has come: the theory of uncertainty.

Just a hundred and fifty years ago Immanuel Kant came across this fact in Germany. He said that reason is very limited; it sees only a certain part of reality and starts believing 'that this is the whole. This has been the trouble. Sooner or later we discover further realities and the old whole is in conflict with the new vision. Immanuel Kant attempted to show that there were ineluctable limits to reason, that reason is very limited. But nobody seems to have heard, nobody has cared about Immanuel Kant. Nobody cares much about philosophers.

But science in this century has at last caught up with Kant. Now Heisenberg, in physics, and Godel, in mathematics, have shown ineluctable limits to human reason. They open up to us a glimpse of a nature which is irrational and paradoxical to the very core. Whatsoever we have been saying about nature has all gone wrong. All principles go wrong because nature is not synonymous with reason, nature is bigger than reason."

OSHO on Truth, Awareness and Enlightenment - Page 87 - David Icke's Official Forums

You are no different than any other "snake-oil" salesman, trying to exploit gaps in our current scientific understanding, and then calling it deceptively as just a new way of thinking. For those of us who have sacrificed 35 years searching for answers that are consistent with the data, the idea of metaphysical explanations can only create more questions than answers.

ha ha ha. A mere 35 years? You are like little children playing with toys in comparison to the great mystics who have been looking at human consciousness over and over again for over 4000 years, many of who have sacrificed everything in pursuit of the highest form of knowledge that man can possibly attain to. But you are completely wrong about higher consciousness: once it nails something down, that's it, and that is because what it has nailed down is a universal principle, in comparison to the shifting sands of science, where what is 'true' today, is replaced by a new theory tomorrow. Now THAT is what creates paradox. Actually, it is because nature is not based upon Reason that paradox is created.

You are correct. There will always be a percentage of people who will easily succumb to the mystique and language of your fallacy-riddled logic. To many if it sounds good, then it must be true. Science just doesn't work that way. If I understand how 90% of something works, why would I invoke the metaphysical to fill in the other 10%? What's wrong with "I just don't know". Why should I listen to you? What evidence have you presented? What practical application does any altered state of consciousness/mind produce? What is the end goal for breaking the shackles of a limited perceptual reality? What is your evidence that the material world is all just an illusion(other than mystics say so)? Again, I don't expect any answers, since your special brand of pseudo-sophistry can only appeal to intuition(a fallacy), not science.

Would you like to go outside your thumb-sucking comfort-cave and catch a glimpse of the glorious Sun? You're looking a bit anemic, I am afraid, filling your head with all those equations, mistaking them for reality. Sure, they SOUND good, which is why most people accept what science says without question. After all, it IS the Gold Standard of Knowledge, is it not?

 

[Truly Enlightened]

The video you provided just confirms what I said: that particles, in this case, electrons, are, in reality, standing waves. In fact, it even stated that the electron cannot be a solid particle, as it would collide with the nucleus if it were.



Weyl, Clifford, Einstein, and Schroedinger agreed that the puzzle of matter would be found in the structure of space, not in point-like bits of matter. They speculated, "What we observe as material bodies and forces are nothing but shapes and variations in the structure of space. The complexity of physics and cosmology is just a special geometry." Perhaps it is about time we take such thoughts more seriously....Schrödinger assumed that the electron's behavior could be described by a three dimensional standing wave.

So Einstein and Schroedinger already really knew that there were no solid 'particles'. So what do I mean by making a point of this? Simply that the notion of solid particles is an illusion, which is what the East has told us for over 4000 years. It's called 'maya'.



Duh! The difference being that the East already knew centuries ago what science is just finding out, which is still just scratching the surface of Reality. And as I previously pointed out, such 'peer-reviewed' papers deliberately omit papers that do not fit into the current scientific paradigm, which, at the moment, is scientific materialism.



Try discovering all those applications without first having consciousness in place. Once again, to reiterate Planck: 'consciousness is the fundamental reality'.

Yes, science has great utility, but still completely fails to have a real understanding as to the true nature of Reality. The more it tries, the more paradox it creates for itself and the public. It knows what nature does and how to make predictions, but it does not have a clue as to what nature actually IS.

"We create a certain [scientific] theory and then there is the honeymoon with the theory. For a few years things go perfectly well. Then reality asserts itself. Reality brings up a few things and the theory gets into difficulty because we had excluded a few facts. Those facts will protest, they will sabotage your theory, they will assert themselves. In the eighteenth century science was absolutely certain, now it is certain no more. Now a new theory has come: the theory of uncertainty.

Just a hundred and fifty years ago Immanuel Kant came across this fact in Germany. He said that reason is very limited; it sees only a certain part of reality and starts believing 'that this is the whole. This has been the trouble. Sooner or later we discover further realities and the old whole is in conflict with the new vision. Immanuel Kant attempted to show that there were ineluctable limits to reason, that reason is very limited. But nobody seems to have heard, nobody has cared about Immanuel Kant. Nobody cares much about philosophers.

But science in this century has at last caught up with Kant. Now Heisenberg, in physics, and Godel, in mathematics, have shown ineluctable limits to human reason. They open up to us a glimpse of a nature which is irrational and paradoxical to the very core. Whatsoever we have been saying about nature has all gone wrong. All principles go wrong because nature is not synonymous with reason, nature is bigger than reason."

OSHO on Truth, Awareness and Enlightenment - Page 87 - David Icke's Official Forums



ha ha ha. A mere 35 years? You are like little children playing with toys in comparison to the great mystics who have been looking at human consciousness over and over again for over 4000 years, many of who have sacrificed everything in pursuit of the highest form of knowledge that man can possibly attain to. But you are completely wrong about higher consciousness: once it nails something down, that's it, and that is because what it has nailed down is a universal principle, in comparison to the shifting sands of science, where what is 'true' today, is replaced by a new theory tomorrow. Now THAT is what creates paradox. Actually, it is because nature is not based upon Reason that paradox is created.



Would you like to go outside your thumb-sucking comfort-cave and catch a glimpse of the glorious Sun? You're looking a bit anemic, I am afraid, filling your head with all those equations, mistaking them for reality. Sure, they SOUND good, which is why most people accept what science says without question. After all, it IS the Gold Standard of Knowledge, is it not?

Riiight!