Convince me government is moral.

[an anarchist]

TLDR: convince me a government could be a moral system.

Government is immoral. Anarchism is the only moral system. I'm sure about this. My religious beliefs fluctuate. My political beliefs have too, but from a super statist (republican) to a mild statist (Libertarian) and then finally to an anarchist. My political beliefs evolved away from statism.

To be a statist is to hold a view of any government system as legitimate.

So essentially everyone on this site except @Heyo and @syo (your an anarchist, right syo? I think I remember right). Any other anarchists here?

Don't get me wrong, anarchism isn't some small movement. The government would like you to think the anarchist movement is small, and don't even want you to know about it.

Anywho it seems like 99% of the world are statists. Every single government indoctrinates their populace to be statists. An obvious example is the pledge of allegiance every day in public school.

So, I am in the minority here. I'm open to being wrong. I really am. So, convince me that a form of government could be a moral system.

I say it is immoral because the existence of a state entails people having control over me and my property. No one, even if they claim to be a state, has a right over my body or property. A state is merely individuals, bandits if you will.

And, by the way, all goods and services can be provided in the absence of a state. There would still be roads and firemen. That's a tangent though.

 

[SomeRandom]

TLDR: convince me a government could be a moral system.

Government is immoral. Anarchism is the only moral system. I'm sure about this. My religious beliefs fluctuate. My political beliefs have too, but from a super statist (republican) to a mild statist (Libertarian) and then finally to an anarchist. My political beliefs evolved away from statism.

To be a statist is to hold a view of any government system as legitimate.

So essentially everyone on this site except @Heyo and @syo (your an anarchist, right syo? I think I remember right). Any other anarchists here?

Don't get me wrong, anarchism isn't some small movement. The government would like you to think the anarchist movement is small, and don't even want you to know about it.

Anywho it seems like 99% of the world are statists. Every single government indoctrinates their populace to be statists. An obvious example is the pledge of allegiance every day in public school.

So, I am in the minority here. I'm open to being wrong. I really am. So, convince me that a form of government could be a moral system.

I say it is immoral because the existence of a state entails people having control over me and my property. No one, even if they claim to be a state, has a right over my body or property. A state is merely individuals, bandits if you will.

And, by the way, all goods and services can be provided in the absence of a state. There would still be roads and firemen. That's a tangent though.

I’ll admit that Anarchism genuinely appeals to me.
I even follow some anarchist channels online. (Maybe just a consequence of being in the “LeftTube community.” But still.)
I just don’t fully understand how it can “work” without a state. By that I mean how would one own property and be able to prove it, without some kind of neutral authority to appeal to? Just as an example

Granted I’m not well versed on political theory or economy. So I might well be an Anarchist if I bothered to actually do my homework lol

Though I think the government is neutral, I think it can be “immoral” in many ways. Corruption being an obvious example. But we have it for a reason, don’t we?

Unrelated but I never had to do any sort of pledge of allegiance. That’s a US specific thing and honestly sounds like a very 1984 thing to enforce to my eyes. Big Brother much? Yikes!

 

[Viker]

I'm a minimalist. A neo-Jeffersonian of sorts.

Government is generally amoral. It doesn't need be one or the other. It just needs to govern. Hopefully it does so sufficiently. I'm not an anarchist because I do not trust the human race to be without governance. I'm not a knee jerk statist for the same reason. Government is inevitable because people make it so. It's unavoidable and comes natural as people interact with each other. Even the rules of this forum are a form of governance. A government is like our mods and admins. No difference.

Really? Do you trust 8billion people with your life? So much so that you dream of the removal of governance? Oftentimes, I don't think anarchists truly understand what government actually is and how wrapped up in government they truly are.

 

[exchemist]

TLDR: convince me a government could be a moral system.

Government is immoral. Anarchism is the only moral system. I'm sure about this. My religious beliefs fluctuate. My political beliefs have too, but from a super statist (republican) to a mild statist (Libertarian) and then finally to an anarchist. My political beliefs evolved away from statism.

To be a statist is to hold a view of any government system as legitimate.

So essentially everyone on this site except @Heyo and @syo (your an anarchist, right syo? I think I remember right). Any other anarchists here?

Don't get me wrong, anarchism isn't some small movement. The government would like you to think the anarchist movement is small, and don't even want you to know about it.

Anywho it seems like 99% of the world are statists. Every single government indoctrinates their populace to be statists. An obvious example is the pledge of allegiance every day in public school.

So, I am in the minority here. I'm open to being wrong. I really am. So, convince me that a form of government could be a moral system.

I say it is immoral because the existence of a state entails people having control over me and my property. No one, even if they claim to be a state, has a right over my body or property. A state is merely individuals, bandits if you will.

And, by the way, all goods and services can be provided in the absence of a state. There would still be roads and firemen. That's a tangent though.

The roads, firemen and, most important of all, the rule of law, are not tangential. They are at the heart of the reasons for government. Any club or society, of whatever kind, needs rules. Think about it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

It's no moral or immoral or amoral inherently on it's own. It's how it's ran that counts.
But with anarchy, it's more prone to might is right, more prone to inconsistency, and there are no official means of reproach.
It can work just fine for smaller societies, but as a society grows in size and complexity so does the need to formally organize society.

 

[Viker]

An obvious example is the pledge of allegiance every day in public school

By the way, that hasn't been around since I was a little kid.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Really? Do you trust 8billion people with your life? So much so that you dream of the removal of governance? Oftentimes, I don't think anarchists truly understand what government actually is and how wrapped up in government they truly are.

I do strongly agree with that.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

By the way, that hasn't been around since I was a little kid.

I had daily recitals as a kid.

 

[an anarchist]

I just don’t fully understand how it can “work” without a state. By that I mean how would one own property and be able to prove it, without some kind of neutral authority to appeal to? Just as an example

I can't elaborate to well on it I'm not the best educated in anarchist economics haha though I preach it alot. In Austrian economics (Anarcho capitalist economics) contract law is central. There would be competing arbiters that both parties can agree to go to in the case of a dispute through a contract. Private judges, police, and private laws, try to wrap your head around that! I'm still trying to.

 

[an anarchist]

The roads, firemen and, most important of all, the rule of law, are not tangential. They are at the heart of the reasons for government. Any club or society, of whatever kind, needs rules. Think about it.

I have thought about it. There are rules in an anarchist society. Government isn't a necessary prerequisite. And roads and firemen would still exist, as well as all other essential services. The government monopolizes essential services and creates the illusion that the services would not exist without a state.

 

[an anarchist]

By the way, that hasn't been around since I was a little kid.

Well I was in school less than a decade ago and it's still a thing.

 

[Viker]

I can't elaborate to well on it I'm not the best educated in anarchist economics haha though I preach it alot. In Austrian economics (Anarcho capitalist economics) contract law is central. There would be competing arbiters that both parties can agree to go to in the case of a dispute through a contract. Private judges, police, and private laws, try to wrap your head around that! I'm still trying to.

I don't consider that anarchism. It is not. It's government via micromanagement. An illusion for alleged anarchists to swim in. It's still governance, hence a government, hence a state. As I said, inevitable and unavoidable.

 

[Viker]

Well I was in school less than a decade ago and it's still a thing.

It's not mandatory. Unless that came back since I've been away (graduated in 88)

 

[an anarchist]

A government is like our mods and admins. No difference.

Huge difference. We freely associate here and agree to the rules. A government uses compulsion. I didn't choose to be a citizen of my country. I haven't agreed to the laws or rules. It is tyranny.

 

[an anarchist]

It's not mandatory. Unless that came back since I've been away (graduated in 88)

Well some teachers made it mandatory would throw a fit and make you stand up if you refused. My senior year teacher was chill about me remaining seated though. I guess it just depends, but it is definitely encouraged.

 

[Viker]

I have thought about it. There are rules in an anarchist society. Government isn't a necessary prerequisite. And roads and firemen would still exist, as well as all other essential services. The government monopolizes essential services and creates the illusion that the services would not exist without a state.

All anarchists can manage to do is reinvent the wheel and call it something else.

What you're talking about is authoritarian overreaching. That is only one way of government. And one I despise.

 

[Spirit of Light]

TLDR: convince me a government could be a moral system.

Government is immoral. Anarchism is the only moral system. I'm sure about this. My religious beliefs fluctuate. My political beliefs have too, but from a super statist (republican) to a mild statist (Libertarian) and then finally to an anarchist. My political beliefs evolved away from statism.

To be a statist is to hold a view of any government system as legitimate.

So essentially everyone on this site except @Heyo and @syo (your an anarchist, right syo? I think I remember right). Any other anarchists here?

Don't get me wrong, anarchism isn't some small movement. The government would like you to think the anarchist movement is small, and don't even want you to know about it.

Anywho it seems like 99% of the world are statists. Every single government indoctrinates their populace to be statists. An obvious example is the pledge of allegiance every day in public school.

So, I am in the minority here. I'm open to being wrong. I really am. So, convince me that a form of government could be a moral system.

I say it is immoral because the existence of a state entails people having control over me and my property. No one, even if they claim to be a state, has a right over my body or property. A state is merely individuals, bandits if you will.

And, by the way, all goods and services can be provided in the absence of a state. There would still be roads and firemen. That's a tangent though.

Yes most Governments are in some way immoral, and I do not trust leaders in Governments.
But I don't think anarchism is the right way either both lead to chaos

 

[Viker]

Huge difference. We freely associate here and agree to the rules. A government uses compulsion. I didn't choose to be a citizen of my country. I haven't agreed to the laws or rules. It is tyranny.

You agree by not actively opposing any deemed imposition. Challenge the status quo. Stick it to the man. Go off grid. Don't let them take taxes.

 

[an anarchist]

All anarchists can manage to do is reinvent the wheel and call it something else.

What you're talking about is authoritarian overreaching. That is only one way of government. And one I despise.

I have seen this assertion that a free market society is an authoritarian state. This does not make sense to me. Society would be based on freedom of association. I dont see where I'm talking about authoritarian overreaching, I'm talking about the complete opposite. Enlighten me

 

[an anarchist]

You agree by not actively opposing any deemed imposition. Challenge the status quo. Stick it to the man. Go off grid. Don't let them take taxes.

Oh god I'm not a true anarchist. I wish. A true anarchist goes off the grid and gardens and stuff. I get food stamps haha. A bit hypocritical, but a mans gotta eat.
I don't agree by not actively opposing. What am I to do, overthrow the government? If I oppose them, they will send men with guns after me to put me in a cage, and if I resist I will be killed.