Could Jesus have been wrong?

[1robin]

I'm asking this question to Christians, and others who might wish to reply. There are those of the Christian faith, most I tend to think, who would say Jesus knew everything there was to know because he was the Son of God. But it is possible someone could recognize that he was in fact ignorant of a great many things, wrong in a lot of cases, yet it not diminish his standing as a spiritual teacher, or to be called the Son of God? Is in necessary for the Enlightened ones to be beyond anything earthly, like making mistakes?

Let me expand that a little to say must he have not had any flaws? No personality quirks? No fearful responses? No anger? Not hurting others through his own processes of figuring out who he was as a person? No errors he later corrected on a path of growth, like any one of us? Did he somehow escape all that? Was he "perfect" beyond any and all human struggles? Is this how you see Jesus? Please share.

I'm curious to hear mostly Christians reply to this, but others are welcome as well.

This question has an elegant answer. Jesus' resurrection was God's stamp of approval on what Christ had been claiming. Do you think that if Jesus showed up on Earth and just decided to make up a bunch of lies about God and faith that God would bring him back to life? Even if he did wouldn't you think he would go through the same amount of time and trouble to straighten out the lies as he put in to sending Christ in the first place. Another aspect of this is that all the NT authors and many of the OT authors were all making the same claims Christ did. If Christ was wrong there is absolutely no evidence of it. Every single way his message should have been confirmed was provided for us.

BTW A point of order. Yes Jesus knows everything in general but while here on this earth his divine power was mysteriously shrouded for purposes I don't yet understand. For example he said while on this earth that even he did not know the date of the final judgment.

 

[Windwalker]

This question has an elegant answer. Jesus' resurrection was God's stamp of approval on what Christ had been claiming. Do you think that if Jesus showed up on Earth and just decided to make up a bunch of lies about God and faith that God would bring him back to life?

Do you say of yourself that when you stumble and bumble your way through your life, making errors through which you later learn and grow through them, that you were "making up a bunch of lies"?

I'm not talking about being deceptive to others. I'm talking about making sincere mistakes as a human being, not being a sociopath or a conman. Is it possible, Jesus was human, like the rest of us, learning and growing through his own genuine errors just like the rest of us? That is the question here, not if he was a liar intent on the deception of others when he knew better.

Another aspect of this is that all the NT authors and many of the OT authors were all making the same claims Christ did.

Did Jesus ever claim, "I've never made a mistake in my life"? Did Jesus never make a social blunder? Did Jesus never fall in love with some young woman and say something stupid and embarrassing and go home berating himself on his foolishness in that situation? Did Jesus get to bypass normal puberty?

Was Jesus not a real human being? That is what this question is about. Was Jesus an actual human being, rather than some transcendent being just wearing human skin to look like us, but was not anything like us at all, because he was a fully mature human from birth, perfect in everything? Did Jesus never say any words wrong when he was learning language, for instance? Did he never throw a temper tantrum? Did he never do something his parents needed to correct him about?

If so to any of the above mistakes all humans make, then how did he grow? Was he a Divine Adult, when he was three? Furthermore, how could anyone human who has ever lived relate to that?

BTW A point of order. Yes Jesus knows everything in general but while here on this earth his divine power was mysteriously shrouded for purposes I don't yet understand.

I think this thread is to help maybe give some perspective to the problem that is created by imagining Jesus never made any mistakes on anything and was never in the wrong, thus making him not a human like any of us. If he was not like us, then how can he meditate between the Divine and human when he never was really human to begin with?

 

[tayla]

But it is possible someone could recognize that he was in fact ignorant of a great many things, wrong in a lot of cases, yet it not diminish his standing as a spiritual teacher, or to be called the Son of God?

I used to be a Christian but noticed the inconsistencies in the Biblical accounts. This led me to finally see Christianity as fiction. From this vantage point, your question needs no answer; there is no need to analyze why fiction has flaws, except maybe from an artistic point of view.

 

[Windwalker]

I used to be a Christian but noticed the inconsistencies in the Biblical accounts. This led me to finally see Christianity as fiction. From this vantage point, your question needs no answer; there is no need to analyze why fiction has flaws, except maybe from an artistic point of view.

Seeing it as fiction throws the baby out with the bathwater. Something does not have to be factually true, such as turning water to wine, in order to be true on a different level. I can see why some need to believe these things literally, as facts as a believer, or not-facts as a skeptic. But that misses the point of them. It doesn't see any deeper meaning, from either perspective, as believer or skeptic.

Symbolically true, has much more meaning and depth and relevance, than being factually true. Such things speak to the human condition, to desires for peace, hope, and so forth. Nurturing those parts of ourselves can be very much more important than getting the facts right. Getting the facts right give you knowledge. Growing depth gives you wisdom. Data and facts do not inspire the soul to become its further reaches. Symbolism does.

 

[74x12]

I'm asking this question to Christians, and others who might wish to reply. There are those of the Christian faith, most I tend to think, who would say Jesus knew everything there was to know because he was the Son of God. But it is possible someone could recognize that he was in fact ignorant of a great many things, wrong in a lot of cases, yet it not diminish his standing as a spiritual teacher, or to be called the Son of God? Is in necessary for the Enlightened ones to be beyond anything earthly, like making mistakes?

Let me expand that a little to say must he have not had any flaws? No personality quirks? No fearful responses? No anger? Not hurting others through his own processes of figuring out who he was as a person? No errors he later corrected on a path of growth, like any one of us? Did he somehow escape all that? Was he "perfect" beyond any and all human struggles? Is this how you see Jesus? Please share.

I'm curious to hear mostly Christians reply to this, but others are welcome as well.

No. Jesus as the Messiah did not even begin His ministry until about 30 years old. He had already learned everything necessary to successfully complete His mission by then. All He really needed to learn was discernment. That is right from wrong. If you really want to listen to the holy Spirit; then you must learn discernment of spirits. Otherwise you don't know what spirit you are actually listening to. Jesus likely learned this very early.(Isaiah 7:14-16) How do you learn discernment? Jesus simply tested all things by the Torah. So when the evil spirit Satan came to test Him: Jesus replied with scriptures. This proved that Jesus had fully learned discernment and was ready to be the Messiah indeed; besides just being so in promise. By continually walking in the Spirit and continually denying the flesh; Jesus remained in perfect harmony with the will of God at all times. (John 8:29, Isaiah 50:5) Because the Spirit was given to Him without measure. (John 3:34)

However the scripture does indicate that Jesus learned obedience through experience which ultimately led to His death. (Hebrews 5:7-9) So His whole life was a learning experience in a way. Not that He ever disobeyed. But He had to actually taste of the consequences of obedience. That means He tasted death etc. All in His effort to obey God to the "bitter end". That's the difference between theory and practice for you. Or the difference between knowledge and wisdom. Wisdom is knowledge applied. Whereas knowledge alone is just knowledge. A man can be very knowledgeable but still unwise. Jesus was wise.

So if we compared Jesus to any previous prophet there would be no comparison. The Spirit was given to all of them by a set measure. Any vessel can contain only a set amount of liquid for example. But Jesus had the Spirit without any limit. So any power of the previous prophets was potentially available to Him.

Essentially, it was easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one single word of Jesus to fail. (Matthew 24:35)

 

[1robin]

Do you say of yourself that when you stumble and bumble your way through your life, making errors through which you later learn and grow through them, that you were "making up a bunch of lies"?

Of course I have committed all those errors of which you say I am guilty but then God has not publicly resurrected me putting a stamp of approval on my life's work and claims. And the authors of the bible condemn rather that approve my conduct. I have often been at odds with the bible's message where as Christ was perfectly consistent with it in every record of him we have that is reliable. Of course I have led a life of trial and error, I am not a deity. You do realize Jesus existed for eternity before popping down to earth for a few short years?

I'm not talking about being deceptive to others. I'm talking about making sincere mistakes as a human being, not being a sociopath or a conman. Is it possible, Jesus was human, like the rest of us, learning and growing through his own genuine errors just like the rest of us? That is the question here, not if he was a liar intent on the deception of others when he knew better.

By far it is the bible which provides the greatest resource on Christ's life and it does not show us a record of a stumbling bumbling but well meaning child learning as he grows. No it show Jesus as a 12 year old out debating priests holding a discussion on theological matters. If Jesus committed a single error there is no reliable record on it.

Did Jesus ever claim, "I've never made a mistake in my life"? Did Jesus never make a social blunder? Did Jesus never fall in love with some young woman and say something stupid and embarrassing and go home berating himself on his foolishness in that situation? Did Jesus get to bypass normal puberty?

He went even further. He claimed to be the truth it's self. In other words, to behold him was to behold truth in it's perfect form. Again if Jesus ever committed a mistake there is no record in it in any reliable source. I am really not sure where your trying to go with this. Take the famous words of C.S. Lewis on this matter:

“I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept his claim to be God. That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool, you can spit at him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God, but let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.”
Quote by C.S. Lewis: “I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the r...”

Was Jesus not a real human being? That is what this question is about. Was Jesus an actual human being, rather than some transcendent being just wearing human skin to look like us, but was not anything like us at all, because he was a fully mature human from birth, perfect in everything? Did Jesus never say any words wrong when he was learning language, for instance? Did he never throw a temper tantrum? Did he never do something his parents needed to correct him about?

Jesus was a perfect divine being who for a very short time took on the form of human flesh to carry out a 3 year ministry that changed the world more than any similar event in the entire history of humanity.

If so to any of the above mistakes all humans make, then how did he grow? Was he a Divine Adult, when he was three? Furthermore, how could anyone human who has ever lived relate to that?

It is hard to answer very specific questions about Jesus childhood since the bible does not really cover it but there is no record of him being mistaken about any issue or action.

I think this thread is to help maybe give some perspective to the problem that is created by imagining Jesus never made any mistakes on anything and was never in the wrong, thus making him not a human like any of us. If he was not like us, then how can he meditate between the Divine and human when he never was really human to begin with?

Jesus can mediate between humans and the divine whether he was ever human at all (he is God and God is capable of all logical actions) but the official doctrine of the church states that while on earth he was fully human and fully divine. It is a hard thing to imagine and that is why it's officially referred to as one of the mysteries of the bible. Again there is no record of Jesus's making the same mistakes we frail mortals are guilty of but I think this thread is more about Jesus ministry than his early childhood since it is predominately his ministry that we have a record of and is of import to us. I don't think it really matters (nor do people in this thread care) whether Jesus put his shoes on the wrong feet at age 5. I think they are more concerned with the lofty claims he made during his ministry (which we do have record of). I really think you barking up the wrong tree here.

 

[metis]

Personally, I have no problem accepting the concept that Jesus could be wrong because, after all, he was human. However, I separate that from his basic teachings.