Countries banning of kosher meats are forcing "expulsion" of Jews

[Subduction Zone]

Hmmm...prove it.

Sorry, you have failed far too often in the past. Until you prove some of your claims then you can make this demand. If others ask I will provide evidence.

 

[Subduction Zone]

just a side note (though it isn't specifically the topic of this thread), the reason for kosher slaughter isn't because the method ensures proper exsanguination.

That is nice to hear since regular butchery appears to have the same result.

 

[rosends]

Really? Please explain.

The method is designed to sever the trachea and esophagus and major arteries as simultaneously as possible and as quickly as possible. While removing the blood (and burying it) is essential, I don't know it as the driving reason behind a method of slaughter.

 

[Subduction Zone]

The method is designed to sever the trachea and esophagus and major arteries as simultaneously as possible and as quickly as possible. While removing the blood (and burying it) is essential, I don't know it as the driving reason behind a method of slaughter.

I think that the original purpose was largely to be as painless and humane as possible. The heart is going to pump out less than half of the blood before the animal dies, and a rapid death only means that even less blood will be pumped out. Regular butchering removes the blood as well so that should not be a concern

The problem arises when a false religious value is placed upon a practical act that was meant to be humane. An even more humane method should be switched to instead of relying upon a tradition that could be kinder.

 

[rosends]

I think that the original purpose was largely to be as painless and humane as possible. The heart is going to pump out less than half of the blood before the animal dies, and a rapid death only means that even less blood will be pumped out. Regular butchering removes the blood as well so that should not be a concern

The problem arises when a false religious value is placed upon a practical act that was meant to be humane. An even more humane method should be switched to instead of relying upon a tradition that could be kinder.

This requires that we assign our understanding onto the methodology. Religious ritual often is predicated on faith in the command even when given without explanation. When the faithful start replacing God's (unstated) reasoning with their own (which might shift, era to era) the religion stops begin about a relationship with the divine and starts being dependent on the thinking of people.

 

[Subduction Zone]

This requires that we assign our understanding onto the methodology. Religious ritual often is predicated on faith in the command even when given without explanation. When the faithful start replacing God's (unstated) reasoning with their own (which might shift, era to era) the religion stops begin about a relationship with the divine and starts being dependent on the thinking of people.

The problem is that this should not have been a religious ritual in the first place. If one fully understands one's religion in Ben it becomes clear it is not a way of worshiping God but of simply being a decent human being. A good person does not inflict pain unnecessarily on other people or animals. That is all that kosher or halal butchery is. Adding a mystery to it that does not belong only means that there will be resistance when a better method is found.

 

[viole]

The United States envoy against anti-Semitism has condemned the spread of legislation in Europe that limits the slaughter of animals according to Jewish religious tradition as “disgraceful” and “intolerable,” claiming such laws are forcing the expulsion of Jewish communities.
Countries banning kosher meat are forcing “expulsion” of Jews, says U.S. anti-Semitism envoy

In order to avoid that, I suggest you guys stop practicing barbaric procedures that might have been applicable in the bronze age, but have no place in a modern and secular society.

Suppose I make up, like everybody did, a religion that requires animals to be badly tortured before being eating, and that they should be eaten alive because my made up God says so; do you think I would be justified to accuse people to impinge on my religious rights and accuse them of racism or some other ism?

Ciao

- viole

 

[BSM1]

Sorry, you have failed far too often in the past. Until you prove some of your claims then you can make this demand. If others ask I will provide evidence.

Wasn't asked. I guess hyperbole is always 20/20, but doesn't it invalidate any further claims you may have?

 

[sooda]

The method is designed to sever the trachea and esophagus and major arteries as simultaneously as possible and as quickly as possible. While removing the blood (and burying it) is essential, I don't know it as the driving reason behind a method of slaughter.

In Halal they severed the trachea and esophagus instantly.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Wasn't asked. I guess hyperbole is always 20/20, but doesn't it invalidate any further claims you may have?

No.

 

[Subduction Zone]

In Halal they severed the trachea and esophagus instantly.

I will grant that it is very quick, but the animal still suffers.

 

[sooda]

In order to avoid that, I suggest you guys stop practicing barbaric procedures that might have been applicable in the bronze age, but have no place in a modern and secular society.

Suppose I make up, like everybody did, a religion that requires animals to be badly tortured before being eating, and that they should be eaten alive because my made up God says so; do you think I would be justified to accuse people to impinge on my religious rights and accuse them of racism or some other ism?

Ciao

- viole

Are you saying that Halal and/or Kosher are barbaric?

 

[sooda]

I will grant that it is very quick, but the animal still suffers.

I can't say. I have seen Halal.. I have never seen Kosher and when my grandparents slaughtered I wasn't allowed out of the house until the meat was dressed.

 

[rosends]

The problem is that this should not have been a religious ritual in the first place. If one fully understands one's religion in Ben it becomes clear it is not a way of worshiping God but of simply being a decent human being. A good person does not inflict pain unnecessarily on other people or animals. That is all that kosher or halal butchery is. Adding a mystery to it that does not belong only means that there will be resistance when a better method is found.

That's your assessment of religion with man at the center. It isn't how many people view religion as a function of a strong faith. It is not up to man to decide what should or should not be part of the religion if the religion is deemed to be divine in origin.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I can't say. I have seen Halal.. I have never seen Kosher and when my grandparents slaughtered I wasn't allowed out of the house until the meat was dressed.

The videos I saw on YouTube were of halal butchers. It was quick, but the point is that stunning is quicker. Stunning, if all goes well, does not torture the animal, just as halal butchery is relatively quick if done right. But less pain is better that is why it is keeping in the spirit of halal to use a better technique when one comes along.

 

[Subduction Zone]

That's your assessment of religion with man at the center. It isn't how many people view religion as a function of a strong faith. It is not up to man to decide what should or should not be part of the religion if the religion is deemed to be divine in origin.

Try to reason logically. If your God is a loving God that would apply to animals as well. Kosher butchery appears to use a technique that minimizes pain for the animal. Something that a loving God would want. If a technique improves upon that a loving God would approve. Ask yourself why would God want unnecessary suffering of an animal when you are already ordered to act in a way that minimizes pain? It does not eliminate it, but it is far less cruel than how some dogs are supposedly tortured first to make their meat more tender in other communities.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Are you saying that Halal and/or Kosher are barbaric?

I think that point is that they are not perfect. Neither is stunning, but it is kinder. Now a supersonic guillotine might be the ultimate, but until then . . .

 

[sooda]

The videos I saw on YouTube were of halal butchers. It was quick, but the point is that stunning is quicker. Stunning, if all goes well, does not torture the animal, just as halal butchery is relatively quick if done right. But less pain is better that is why it is keeping in the spirit of halal to use a better technique when one comes along.

Well, it also has to do with skill.. Not every Muslim is skilled in slaughtering properly. Even so.. I'm not going to judge their ways... BECAUSE they do not intend to cause the animal pain or fear. That much I'm sure of.

 

[David1967]

And? So the animal is dead, so what. It's dead, then drain the blood.

Right, any hunter knows this. I don't know anyone who's ever gone up to a deer, put their arm around it's neck, whispered calming words into it's ear while softly stroking its fur,,,,and then slit its throat. That would not work. Its shot, given a few minutes to die then approached and then cut it's throat and gut it and carry the meat home. Savage yes. But that is the natural state of man as the hunter. Whispering sweet nothings to the animal while cutting its throat just seems weird.

 

[viole]

Are you saying that Halal and/or Kosher are barbaric?

Yes. And that is why Europe should ban it. Globally. In Switzerland we have even import ban from country practicing that.

Ciao

- viole