Countries banning of kosher meats are forcing "expulsion" of Jews

[Subduction Zone]

Not according to everyone. There is a range of understanding within Jewish law about vegetarianism. Some say it is preferable, some say that it is forbidden. Some say it is acceptable. Some say it isn't.

I am seriously interested, how does one justify that a person must eat meat? I am not saying that those are your beliefs, but I am curious.

 

[rosends]

My my my, you do love to project. I am not the one that decides. But yes, there are clear parts of the Bible or Torah that are mythical.

So you don't decide but some are clearly mythical. Got it.

Again not mine, but I never claimed that the presuppositions are objective. I said that it results in an objectively superior morality, something that you will fail at since a literal interpretation of the Torah results in a rather terrible morality that no one follows.

So because you don't understand how Jewish law and textual understanding works you come to false conclusions. You should probably start by trying to learn instead of assuming you know. Phrases like "literal interpretation of the Torah" betray a severely limited exposure to Jewish thinking. Come on over to the Orthodox DIR and ask questions.

You would have to justify that claim. It fails when tested.

That is certainly your position, yes.

I never said that the premises that I follow were everyone's. They just lead to a superior morality.

Again, presuming the morality and its superiority. Have fun with that.

 

[rosends]

I am seriously interested, how does one justify that a person must eat meat? I am not saying that those are your beliefs, but I am curious.

If there are commandments which demand that people eat meat (as in, for example the Paschal sacrifice in which all Jews are commanded to participate) then some people say that this shows that not eating meat cannot be the expected behavior.

 

[Ellen Brown]

No one is forcing them to give up meat. If one's superstitious, oops II mean religious, beliefs say that one needs to unnecessarily torture the animals that one eats, then that is their fault.

I have never noticed blood in the meat I buy. And cutting an animal's throat will cause some blood to drain, but there will still be a significant amount in it when its heart stops.

If one is worried about blood one could do the final cleansing again at home.

I've seen steaks soaked in salt water to get rid of the blood.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

I am no expert but as I said in the Bedouin camp it was so quick with the head pulled back so far as to break all the vertebra instantly.

If they're wanting to break the neck, a strong cut with a heavy blade to the back of the neck would be better. Beheading the animal, essentially. I don't care what you claim to have seen, no one is going to be able to break a cows neck so easily by just pulling back on the head really really fast. Neither will slitting the throat aid in that.

 

[Ellen Brown]

Are you proposing that there should be no regulations on how animals are slaughtered for food so anyone can choose to do it however they personally prefer or are you proposing that we keep the existing laws and regulations but grant special exemptions for Muslims and Jews to break them? If it is the latter, do you extend this principle to any other laws or regulations and any other religious religions or beliefs?

I propose only that people have the freedom to live according to their beliefs.

This subject started out as inane, and has grown tiresome. I am finished with it.

 

[rosends]

I've seen steaks soaked in salt water to get rid of the blood.

Kosher meat (most of the time) requires washing, salting and rinsing to remove blood. There are many laws.

I'm off to go buy some meat and get ready for the Sabbath. Have a good day.

 

[Subduction Zone]

So you don't decide but some are clearly mythical. Got it.

Correct, the evidence proves it beyond a reasonable doubt.

So because you don't understand how Jewish law and textual understanding works you come to false conclusions. You should probably start by trying to learn instead of assuming you know. Phrases like "literal interpretation of the Torah" betray a severely limited exposure to Jewish thinking. Come on over to the Orthodox DIR and ask questions.

Now that is a non sequitur. And I am sorry, but it is a DIR. You appear to be very literal in aspects of your interpretation.

That is certainly your position, yes.

And that of any rational thinker.

Again, presuming the morality and its superiority. Have fun with that.

No, we could leave it up for judgement. You have to go with your literal interpretation and I will base mine on rational thought.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Just out of curiosity...
What's Wrong with Stunning?

I read it, and it was almost comical how they simply nay-sayed any other methods, and yet provided absolutely no details of their own. I was glad to see one of the commenters captured my thoughts exactly:

How exactly does shechita stun the animal, it doesn't really become clear from this article.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I propose only that people have the freedom to live according to their beliefs.

This subject started out as inane, and has grown tiresome. I am finished with it.

The problem is when one's beliefs affect others or other beings. I am not going to call kosher butchery barbaric, but let's take an extreme example. If my religion includes torturing a dog to death is that okay as long as I buy the dog?

 

[sooda]

View attachment 29126

If they're wanting to break the neck, a strong cut with a heavy blade to the back of the neck would be better. Beheading the animal, essentially. I don't care what you claim to have seen, no one is going to be able to break a cows neck so easily by just pulling back on the head really really fast. Neither will slitting the throat aid in that.

You ever spent an evening in a Bedu camp in Arabia as a dinner guest? where did you get the idea they raise cows in arabia?

 

[Subduction Zone]

If there are commandments which demand that people eat meat (as in, for example the Paschal sacrifice in which all Jews are commanded to participate) then some people say that this shows that not eating meat cannot be the expected behavior.

Thanks for a clear example. I was thinking about that after I posted.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You ever spent an evening in a Bedu camp in Arabia as a dinner guest?

I could see that being done with a goat or sheep even, cows, not so much. I would not think that beef was a very common meal among the Bedu.

Hmm, though they do eat camel meat at times:

Bedouin - Wikipedia

 

[Subduction Zone]

I've seen steaks soaked in salt water to get rid of the blood.

I have never seen a steak with significant blood in them. Sometimes people conflate the red juices that come out of a rare to medium rate steak with blood. It isn't:

https://nypost.com/2017/05/18/that-red-juice-oozing-out-of-your-steak-isnt-blood/

So a "bloody steak" is not bloody after all, just rare and juicy. Yum!

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Even with a goat, that's going to be very hard. Their bones are quite dense, to allow them to butt heads as they do.

Again, sooda, I don't care what you claim to have seen. Unless you can show some pretty strong science behind it, it's not as easy as you make it seem. It would involve forcing muscle, tendons, and then the bones themselves in a way that wouldn't so much break the neck with that motion, but tear - not sever - the spinal cord and those muscles and tendons. Not an easy thing to do, no matter how fast and hard you do it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

This might need to be taken down. The video shows what happens to a cow when it is stunned, the results are instantaneous, and what happens in halal butchery. I have seen other videos and they are not much better:

I am sorry, but we can do much better than that today. There is no need for such suffering.

EDIT: I am thinking now that I have to agree with @viole

 

[Wandering Monk]

No one is forcing them to give up meat. If one's superstitious, oops II mean religious, beliefs say that one needs to unnecessarily torture the animals that one eats, then that is their fault.

I have never noticed blood in the meat I buy. And cutting an animal's throat will cause some blood to drain, but there will still be a significant amount in it when its heart stops.

If one is worried about blood one could do the final cleansing again at home.

They do. The meat is soaked then salted to draw out any remaining blood.

 

[Wandering Monk]

To be perfectly graphic... The throat was slashed deeply and the head was pulled back completely .. It appeared to be instant to me.. but I have nothing to compare it to except "hog killing" on my grandparent's farm.

.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Also the reason for doing it appears to be bogus. It is supposedly done to get rid of the blood from flesh. This method gets rid of less than half of an animal's blood. It will die before then. Humans did after they have lost a third to forty percent of their blood. Other .animals would not be terribly different:

Breaking Point: How Much Blood Can The Human Body Lose?

After the heart has pumped out as much as possible, the animal is hung so that most of the rest drains by gravity. Even after it is all cut and packaged, it is still treated in the home to remove as much blood as possible.

 

[Wandering Monk]

Banning kosher meat should be the rule in all civilised countries as it is unnecessarily cruel to livestock.

In what way. The animal passes out and dies. This is less cruel than having a spike driven into its head.

Kosher slaughtering knives are sharpened after nearly every slaughter. The blade has be be sharp enough and without nicks so that when it is drawn across a fingernail

If you want to read up on kosher slaughter and some of the controversy, here:

Shechita - Wikipedia