Creation vs evolution

[`mud]

Like I said.....and then some.

 

[Faithofchristian]

So we've been in the "last days" for 2000 years? Well, isn't that convenient. Or made up.

But wait, you specifically said that all of these things are going on NOW, as if that were significant in some way:

"All These Peophecy's are taking place now, and people don't even realize it."

So if they've always been going on, what difference does it make if it's specifically happening NOW? It would seem to me that if it's been going on for all this time, the supposed fact that it's happening NOW becomes unimportant and irrelevant. It just makes it the normal way of things. That's some wacky plan your God has - to make it appear that the "last days" are always just around the corner, without actually ever getting there.


You really don't think there were wars rumours of wars, deceivers, sorrow, lusts, deceitfulness of riches, etc. BEFORE Jesus showed up?

I didn't say, they were always going on, not like they are now. You really think they had rumours of wars, and wars, that could destroy the earth like they could now ?

Well it's evidence that you don't know your actually fulfilling Prophecy. And you don't even realize it.

Let's see, according to the book of Revelation, there are 7 seals, 7 Trump's,
7 Vials.
And we are right now standing in the
4th seal, 4th trump, 4th vial, which means we have only 3 more to go. Then this world as we know it, comes to it's end.
And the way things are going, we will be entering the 5th seal, 5th trump, 5th vial. Real soon. Which means, then we have only 2 more to go.
You probably didn't even realize just how close we are to the end of this world.

You know, Jesus did give Prophecy, how people back at the time of Noah, how they didn't even realize how close they were to the flood of Noah's, until the flood was right upon them.
In the same like manner people to day, scoffing and mocking, but yet the people don't even realize how close they are to the coming of the end of this world is upon them.
For each time I look around and in the news, and see in the way things are going, just how close we are to the end of this world. But yet people carrying on business as usual. Not even realizing where they are standing, in the end of this world.

But go ahead with your scoffing and mockery, it doesn't bother me. All because I know where I stand, but do You ?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I didn't say, they were always going on, not like they are now. You really think they had rumours of wars, and wars, that could destroy the earth like they could now ?

You said, "We have been in the last days, since the time of Christ Jesus." That's it.

Yes, I really think they had rumours of wars, and wars long before Jesus ever came along. Now I see you're trying to re-write those verses to make it fit the mistake you've just made.

Well it's evidence that you don't know your actually fulfilling Prophecy. And you don't even realize it.

That doesn't make sense.

Let's see, according to the book of Revelation, there are 7 seals, 7 Trump's,
7 Vials.
And we are right now standing in the
4th seal, 4th trump, 4th vial, which means we have only 3 more to go. Then this world as we know it, comes to it's end.
And the way things are going, we will be entering the 5th seal, 5th trump, 5th vial. Real soon. Which means, then we have only 2 more to go.
You probably didn't even realize just how close we are to the end of this world.

So you say. I see no reason why I should accept that what you say as accurate.

People have been unsuccessfully making end times claims for the last 2000 years. I'm not sure how you would be the one who has finally got it figured out. But I'm going to have to give your claims just as much credence as all the other failed claims that have come and gone over the years.

You know, Jesus did give Prophecy, how people back at the time of Noah, how they didn't even realize how close they were to the flood of Noah's, until the flood was right upon them.
In the same like manner people to day, scoffing and mocking, but yet the people don't even realize how close they are to the coming of the end of this world is upon them.

There is no evidence indicating that the Noah's Ark story ever took place.

For each time I look around and in the news, and see in the way things are going, just how close we are to the end of this world. But yet people carrying on business as usual. Not even realizing where they are standing, in the end of this world.

Sure, sure.

But go ahead with your scoffing and mockery, it doesn't bother me. All because I know where I stand, but do You ?

I'm not mocking you; I'm countering claims you are making on an internet debate forum. Claims you cannot back up.

 

[Faithofchristian]

You said, "We have been in the last days, since the time of Christ Jesus." That's it.

Yes, I really think they had rumours of wars, and wars long before Jesus ever came along. Now I see you're trying to re-write those verses to make it fit the mistake you've just made.


That doesn't make sense.



So you say. I see no reason why I should accept that what you say as accurate.

People have been unsuccessfully making end times claims for the last 2000 years. I'm not sure how you would be the one who has finally got it figured out. But I'm going to have to give your claims just as much credence as all the other failed claims that have come and gone over the years.


There is no evidence indicating that the Noah's Ark story ever took place.



Sure, sure.


I'm not mocking you; I'm countering claims you are making on an internet debate forum. Claims you cannot back up.

I can back them up, but you can not handle them, as you just showed yourself as doing.

The rumours of war that people had back the are not the same they are now,

When Jesus was in the speaking of rumours of war, This is when all Nations of the world, hears of a rumour of a war in this place and that place in the world.

Look take what was happening between North korea and the U.S.And people were spreading rumours how the U.S and North Korea, could be at war. So there was rumours of war,

 

[SkepticThinker]

I can back them up, but you can not handle them, as you just showed yourself as doing.

You've already demonstrated that you cannot. If can you, I'd love to see it. But I haven't seen it yet. I can certainly handle it, I assure you.

The rumours of war that people had back the are not the same they are now

In what way?

When Jesus was in the speaking of rumours of war, This is when all Nations of the world, hears of a rumour of a war in this place and that place in the world.

Pardon? We hear about wars all over the world, and rumours of wars all over the world all the time. There's a war going on in Syria right now. Have you heard about it?

Look take what was happening between North korea and the U.S.And people were spreading rumours how the U.S and North Korea, could be at war. So there was rumours of war,

You really think this is a new thing?

 

[Faithofchristian]

You've already demonstrated that you cannot. If can you, I'd love to see it. But I haven't seen it yet. I can certainly handle it, I assure you.


In what way?


Pardon? We hear about wars all over the world, and rumours of wars all over the world all the time. There's a war going on in Syria right now. Have you heard about it?



You really think this is a new thing?

I will a sure you will not accept it. Once I go to the Bible to prove my point, you will not accept it. Go Figure

 

[SkepticThinker]

I will a sure you will not accept it. Once I go to the Bible to prove my point, you will not accept it. Go Figure

You could address what I said. That would be neat-o.

 

[`mud]

On this point.....I'm with Faith...I think !?!
The mustachedillo properly will attempt to foster the beginning of major mid-east multi-country collapse of all governments!

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Given that this forum is a 'creation vs. evolution' forum...I'm interested in what non-theists think about theistic evolution—


I guess I'm inclined to think about that as being incidental. The main thrust (as I see it) of Genesis 1 and 2 is to say that there is this being God that created the universe and is actively involved with it and cares for it. Indeed, the metaphor of the 'spirit hovering over the waters' invokes an image of a mother hen resting over her chicks. It's quite poetic and profound. Though I'm sure my non-theist friends may see it differently.

Yes, for a book to be able to resonate over millennia, continents, cultures, levels of scientific understanding.. it has to be open to some interpretation.

People did not comprehend concepts like space or even 'air 'not so long ago, so hovering over deep dark waters... it's hard to think of a better description of a large dark lifeless void, under the control of someone who transcended it all, even gravity.

The heavens are also described as fabric unfolding as a curtain or tent, to create space within, a remarkably elegant way to describe the otherwise abstract concept of unfolding dimensions

 

[ArtieE]

The heavens are also described as fabric unfolding as a curtain or tent, to create space within, a remarkably elegant way to describe the otherwise abstract concept of unfolding dimensions

Heh... What was the ancient biblical cosmology?

 

[`mud]

The Earth is an accident........get over it !
See you in Cosmos, maybe !
Just get over it !

 

[`mud]

Ohhh....Idols in the sky...HUH !
And a throne, and trumpets blaring !
WOW !
I want to catch an angle

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Heh... What was the ancient biblical cosmology?

That there was a beginning to the entire universe, a specific creation event, which atheist mocked as 'Big Bang' not so long ago

 

[`mud]

"specific creation event" THAT'S NEAT
which atheist mocked as 'Big Bang' not so long ago what is 'mocking' ?
How does one `mock` ? like: there wasn't a "Big Bang" ever, and `GOD` didn't cause it.
`it` didn't occur.....there wasn't any big or little bang....we evoluted...with the Earth.
And the Cosmos goes on forever to infinity, and propably beyond, melding into the void.
Boy...that `melding` would be something else from everything to nothing,
or the other way around, but it didn't bang, and it's still expanding.
NuffStuff

 

[ArtieE]

That there was a beginning to the entire universe, a specific creation event, which atheist mocked as 'Big Bang' not so long ago

Now, look everybody how Guy is first saying that "there was a beginning" and then says "a specific creation event" as if that's the same thing. Now see what Father George Lemaître says (I have bolded important sentences). So not even a priest and the father of the theory calls it a "creation". Now, is there a particular reason for Guy trying to equate the two? Is it deliberate deception or just ignorance? You be the judge. Remember, Guy is a "Non atheist".

"We may speak of this event as of a beginning. I do not say a creation. Physically it is a beginning in the sense that if something happened before, it has no observable influence on the behavior of our universe, as any feature of matter before this beginning has been completely lost by the extreme contraction at the theoretical zero. Any preexistence of the universe has a metaphysical character. Physically, everything happens as if the theoretical zero was really a beginning. The question if it was really a beginning or rather a creation, something started from nothing, is a philosophical question which cannot be settled by physical or astronomical considerations.23"
Library : The Faith and Reason of Father George Lemaître

 

[Subduction Zone]

That there was a beginning to the entire universe, a specific creation event, which atheist mocked as 'Big Bang' not so long ago

It would be more accurate to state that there was a beginning to the universe as we know it. We do not know if that was the beginning to "the entire universe" yet. Do you understand the difference? There may have been a "before the Big Bang". That concept is being heavily debated in the world of physics today.

The math of all models breaks down before the Big Bang itself. At best astrophysicists can calculate back to what happened a fraction of a second after the start of the expansion began.

 

[Guy Threepwood]

Now, look everybody how Guy is first saying that "there was a beginning" and then says "a specific creation event" as if that's the same thing. Now see what Father George Lemaître says (I have bolded important sentences). So not even a priest and the father of the theory calls it a "creation". Now, is there a particular reason for Guy trying to equate the two? Is it deliberate deception or just ignorance? You be the judge. Remember, Guy is a "Non atheist".

"We may speak of this event as of a beginning. I do not say a creation. Physically it is a beginning in the sense that if something happened before, it has no observable influence on the behavior of our universe, as any feature of matter before this beginning has been completely lost by the extreme contraction at the theoretical zero. Any preexistence of the universe has a metaphysical character. Physically, everything happens as if the theoretical zero was really a beginning. The question if it was really a beginning or rather a creation, something started from nothing, is a philosophical question which cannot be settled by physical or astronomical considerations.23"
Library : The Faith and Reason of Father George Lemaître

As above, the theory Lemaitre had dedicated himself to, was subject to a lot of hostility for the overt theistic implications atheists saw in it- being a priest complicated this

In the 1920s and 1930s almost every major cosmologist preferred an eternal steady state universe, and several complained that the beginning of time implied by the Big Bang imported religious concepts into physics; this objection was later repeated by supporters of the steady state theory.[47]

Hoyle disagreed on its interpretation. He found the idea that the universe had a beginning to be pseudoscience, resembling arguments for a creator, "for it's an irrational process, and can't be described in scientific terms" (see Kalam cosmological argument).[21]

So it was atheists explicitly making the connection between a beginning and a creator. Preferring the opposite argument- no beginning= no creation = no creator.

Lemaitre had to do everything he could to disassociate the theory with any theistic implications, even telling the Pope to quit gloating.


creation v beginning is a largely semantic question though. If you create a work of art, you are using pre-existing materials

 

[`mud]

Geeee....Isn't the cup upside down !

 

[`mud]

OHHHHH...Isn't that the mirrors ?
and backwards also !

 

[JustWondering]

Well first, you have to understand, That naked has a two folded meaning ?

So if someone is taking a bath naked, and
For say, if someone stands naked before God, What does that mean ?

I have no interest in contorting logic and common sense to fit some ancient creation myth. I told you already that you are not preaching to the choir. If what's in the bible doesn't conform to reality and common sense I'm going to hold it to the same standards I hold anything else up to. The bible makes claims that are not supported by what is simply observable all around us on a daily basis.