Creation vs magic

[Thief]

Draw a line and see if it holds.....

Magic as slight of hand....optical illusion...
Creation....power of mind over substance...

That's how I draw the line.

any dispute?

(Can you change stone to bread?......water into wine?)

 

[Willamena]

On the other hand...
Magic as the power of mind over substance.

 

[Thief]

On the other hand...
Magic as the power of mind over substance.

no,no,no

If you are able to transform substance.....that's creation.

 

[Gary Sheldrake]

Draw a line and see if it holds.....

Magic as slight of hand....optical illusion...
Creation....power of mind over substance...

That's how I draw the line.

any dispute?

(Can you change stone to bread?......water into wine?)

What about when you create illusion through slight of hand or optical illusion? Is that not creation? When you do magic, you create an effect. I think that when I look at the sky, I create an effect with the instrumentation available to me.

 

[Bird123]

How does one create an IDEA??? Is an Idea substance? The problem with labels is that they can rarely cover it all.

Now, as for changing stone to bread or water to wine, you must surely widen your view to reality and the true possibilities. Since all matter is energy, then there must be a method of conversion. Convert the stone and water to pure energy then convert that energy into other forms such as bread and water. I must admit my experiments aren't going too well. I'm afraid there is more I do not know than I have discovered. On the other hand, I am heading in the right direction when I keep my mind open to all possibilities.

 

[Jumi]

no,no,no

If you are able to transform substance.....that's creation.

So you believe matter existed before "creation"?

 

[idav]

no,no,no

If you are able to transform substance.....that's creation.

No thats change and manipulation.

 

[Thief]

So you believe matter existed before "creation"?

I cannot affirm existence prior to the creation.
I more than suspect....Spirit first

So I am inclined to say energy without form.

That substance DID form would be the creation.
and the form has design and firmness.

I have no argument against Genesis....but I do read it differently than most people.

I would not say the creation is magic.
It came of intention.
Let there be light ....is a profound statement.

 

[Thief]

No thats change and manipulation.

Did someone say water into wine?

That's not a simple trick.
The story goes.....
six water pots of stone, filled to the brim....
the servants were told to draw and bear it to the governor of the feast.

and the governor said to the bridegroom....
You have saved the best for last!

You can't fool people with grape juice.
It was wine....with alcohol content.

For this to happen, the substance need be more than manipulated.
The content would need change at the atomic level.
Then, at molecular level.

Water is no more than two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen.
Wine is far more complex.

If this was done by the will of Spirit.....
then there is Spirit that someday we must all reckon with.

That hour is pending.

 

[A Vestigial Mote]

Now, as for changing stone to bread or water to wine, you must surely widen your view to reality and the true possibilities. Since all matter is energy, then there must be a method of conversion.

This is true - take the substances of the universe down to their most fundamental constituent parts and "reformat". At that level of manipulation you can "create" any complex object or substance known to man.

Pretend that there is a sub-atomic "printer" - it can take "raw" electrons, protons and neutrons and bind them in relationships that craft them into specific elements and then the elements into molecules. If you could also "scan" at the sub-atomic, or atomic level you could, in essence, "print" anything. A cheeseburger, for instance - anyone would have to admit that at one of its base forms it is composed entirely of sub-atomic particles. It takes formatting the sub-atomic particles in the right way and BOOM! - cheeseburgers for dinner. With advanced enough technology something like this could be possible. It's not magic - nor is it, admittedly, "creation" - seeing as how one could not "print" sub-atomic particles - i.e. cannot fabricate the basest layer - whatever that layer ends up being. But from the standpoint of your "water to wine" example - something like that would become entirely doable.

 

[Thief]

shades of Star Trek and replicators....

 

[idav]

This is true - take the substances of the universe down to their most fundamental constituent parts and "reformat". At that level of manipulation you can "create" any complex object or substance known to man.

Pretend that there is a sub-atomic "printer" - it can take "raw" electrons, protons and neutrons and bind them in relationships that craft them into specific elements and then the elements into molecules. If you could also "scan" at the sub-atomic, or atomic level you could, in essence, "print" anything. A cheeseburger, for instance - anyone would have to admit that at one of its base forms it is composed entirely of sub-atomic particles. It takes formatting the sub-atomic particles in the right way and BOOM! - cheeseburgers for dinner. With advanced enough technology something like this could be possible. It's not magic - nor is it, admittedly, "creation" - seeing as how one could not "print" sub-atomic particles - i.e. cannot fabricate the basest layer - whatever that layer ends up being. But from the standpoint of your "water to wine" example - something like that would become entirely doable.

Reminds me of those making the prescription printer that can print any chemical needed.

 

[Thief]

shall we move to introduce ...willfulness....into the action dealt

 

[Muffled]

Draw a line and see if it holds.....

Magic as slight of hand....optical illusion...
Creation....power of mind over substance...

That's how I draw the line.

any dispute?

(Can you change stone to bread?......water into wine?)

I believe actual magic as opposed to prestidigitation works by incantation or physical practice. Notice that the Egyptian sorcerers (magicians) cast down their rods and their rods became serpents. Moses used magic as well by casting down his rod but it was the power of God that caused Moses serpents to eat the magicians' serpents.

 

[Thief]

I believe actual magic as opposed to prestidigitation works by incantation or physical practice. Notice that the Egyptian sorcerers (magicians) cast down their rods and their rods became serpents. Moses used magic as well by casting down his rod but it was the power of God that caused Moses serpents to eat the magicians' serpents.

ok....we might be on to something!

How about walking on water?
I ever I might see Man do so.....I would not let Him out of my sight!
He would have to throw stones to keep me at distance!

 

[Akivah]

The word 'magic' has multiple meanings. It can defined as 'that which we do not understand'. It can be defined as 'sleight of hand or optical illusion'. It can be defined using role playing definitions which break magic down into specific schools. They differ by play system, but most generally include: Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, Transmutation, and Summoning. Abjuration are protection magic. Conjuration is the creation of objects or creatures. Divination is to learn information or predict the future. Enchantment is to control the minds of others. Evocation is the manipulation of existing energy. Illusion is to deceive the minds of others. Necromancy is to control the dead. Transmutation is the change the physical properties of existing people or objects. Summoning is to bring objects or beings to you.

G-d's Creation can be defined as conjuration or simply 'that which we do not understand'.

 

[Muffled]

ok....we might be on to something!

How about walking on water?
I ever I might see Man do so.....I would not let Him out of my sight!
He would have to throw stones to keep me at distance!

I believe walking on water is not magic but the power of God at work. Jesus displays that power many times and one instance of magic I recall is spitting in mud and putting it over a blind man's eyes. He could have just declared the man receiving his eyesight but I believe some people need the magic in order to believe and a contrary belief can block healing.

 

[Thief]

I believe walking on water is not magic but the power of God at work. Jesus displays that power many times and one instance of magic I recall is spitting in mud and putting it over a blind man's eyes. He could have just declared the man receiving his eyesight but I believe some people need the magic in order to believe and a contrary belief can block healing.

and I've seen another account....
He did no great work among them for their lack of belief....
(I don't remember the name of the place.....ooops!)

and btw.....healing was dealt in a number of ways!

 

[Thief]

The word 'magic' has multiple meanings. It can defined as 'that which we do not understand'. It can be defined as 'sleight of hand or optical illusion'. It can be defined using role playing definitions which break magic down into specific schools. They differ by play system, but most generally include: Abjuration, Conjuration, Divination, Enchantment, Evocation, Illusion, Necromancy, Transmutation, and Summoning. Abjuration are protection magic. Conjuration is the creation of objects or creatures. Divination is to learn information or predict the future. Enchantment is to control the minds of others. Evocation is the manipulation of existing energy. Illusion is to deceive the minds of others. Necromancy is to control the dead. Transmutation is the change the physical properties of existing people or objects. Summoning is to bring objects or beings to you.

G-d's Creation can be defined as conjuration or simply 'that which we do not understand'.

in this I see the potential for mishap

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

If magic is real it must comply with the universal laws. This does not mean it is impossible.

Creation starts with a clean slate with no such restrictions but institutes them.

This Universe may not have been established by either process. but by a process and laws applicable to all universes.
This neither confirms nor denies the existence of God.