Creation

[Charzhino]

''There was neither non-existence nor existence then.
There was neither the realm of space nor the sky which is beyond.
What stirred?
Where?
In whose protection?
Was there water, bottlemlessly deep?

There was neither death nor immortality then.
There was no distinguishing sign of night nor of day.
That One breathed, windless, by its own impulse.
Other than that there was nothing beyond.

Darkness was hidden by darkness in the beginning,
with no distinguishing sign, all this was water.
The life force that was covered with emptiness,
that One arose through the power of heat.

Desire came upon that One in the beginning,
that was the first seed of mind.
Poets seeking in their heart with wisdom
found the bond of existence and non-existence.

Their cord was extended across.
Was there below?
Was there above?
There were seed-placers, there were powers.
There was impulse beneath, there was giving forth above.

Who really knows?
Who will here proclaim it?
Whence was it produced?
Whence is this creation?
The gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.
Who then knows whence it has arisen?

Whence this creation has arisen
- perhaps it formed itself, or perhaps it did not -
the One who looks down on it,
in the highest heaven, only He knows
or perhaps even He does not know'' -Rig Veda 10. 129

Im interested in people's opinions on the last stanza and especially the last line, what do you think it means and its implications?

 

[Onkara]

Sat sri akal Charzhino
For me this last line is a conclusion of the previous thought. The answer still remains:

Who really knows?
Who will here proclaim it?

There is still wisdom in this conclusion, despite it appearing to be ambiguous in the Veda. The reason for this ambiguity was captured by a great saint:

ਜੇ ਕੋ ਆਖੈ ਬੋਲੁਵਿਗਾੜੁ ॥
जे को आखै बोलुविगाड़ु ॥
Je ko ākẖai boluvigāṛ.
If anyone presumes to describe God,

ਤਾ ਲਿਖੀਐ ਸਿਰਿ ਗਾਵਾਰਾ ਗਾਵਾਰੁ ॥੨੬॥
ता लिखीऐ सिरि गावारा गावारु ॥२६॥
Ŧā likī▫ai sir gāvārā gāvār. ||26||
he shall be known as the greatest fool of fools! ||26||

 

[GURSIKH]

with no distinguishing sign, all this was water.

ONLY EK ONKAAR ,Acc to Guru Nanak

ਮਾਰੂ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥
Maaroo, First Mehl:

ਅਰਬਦ ਨਰਬਦ ਧੁੰਧੂਕਾਰਾ ॥
For endless eons, there was neither light nor darkness.

ਧਰਣਿ ਨ ਗਗਨਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥
There was no earth or sky; there was only the infinite Command of His Hukam.

ਨਾ ਦਿਨੁ ਰੈਨਿ ਨ ਚੰਦੁ ਨ ਸੂਰਜੁ ਸੁੰਨ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਲਗਾਇਦਾ ॥੧॥
There was no day or night, no moon or sun; God sat in primal, profound Samaadhi. ||1||

ਖਾਣੀ ਨ ਬਾਣੀ ਪਉਣ ਨ ਪਾਣੀ ॥
There were no sources of creation or powers of speech, no air or water.

ਓਪਤਿ ਖਪਤਿ ਨ ਆਵਣ ਜਾਣੀ ॥
There was no creation or destruction, no coming or going.

ਖੰਡ ਪਤਾਲ ਸਪਤ ਨਹੀ ਸਾਗਰ ਨਦੀ ਨ ਨੀਰੁ ਵਹਾਇਦਾ ॥੨॥
There were no continents, nether regions, seven seas, rivers or flowing water. ||2||

ਨਾ ਤਦਿ ਸੁਰਗੁ ਮਛੁ ਪਇਆਲਾ ॥
There were no heavenly realms, earth or nether regions of the underworld.

ਦੋਜਕੁ ਭਿਸਤੁ ਨਹੀ ਖੈ ਕਾਲਾ ॥
There was no heaven or hell, no death or time.

ਨਰਕੁ ਸੁਰਗੁ ਨਹੀ ਜੰਮਣੁ ਮਰਣਾ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਆਇ ਨ ਜਾਇਦਾ ॥੩॥
There was no hell or heaven, no birth or death, no coming or going in reincarnation. ||3||

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ॥
There was no Brahma, Vishnu or Shiva.

ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੀਸੈ ਏਕੋ ਸੋਈ ॥
No one was seen, except the One Lord.

ਨਾਰਿ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਨ ਜਨਮਾ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਦੁਖੁ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥੪॥
There was no female or male, no social class or caste of birth; no one experienced pain or pleasure. ||4||

ਨਾ ਤਦਿ ਜਤੀ ਸਤੀ ਬਨਵਾਸੀ ॥
There were no people of celibacy or charity; no one lived in the forests.

ਨਾ ਤਦਿ ਸਿਧ ਸਾਧਿਕ ਸੁਖਵਾਸੀ ॥
There were no Siddhas or seekers, no one living in peace.

ਜੋਗੀ ਜੰਗਮ ਭੇਖੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਨਾਥੁ ਕਹਾਇਦਾ ॥੫॥
There were no Yogis, no wandering pilgrims, no religious robes; no one called himself the master. ||5||

ਜਪ ਤਪ ਸੰਜਮ ਨਾ ਬ੍ਰਤ ਪੂਜਾ ॥
There was no chanting or meditation, no self-discipline, fasting or worship.

ਨਾ ਕੋ ਆਖਿ ਵਖਾਣੈ ਦੂਜਾ ॥
No one spoke or talked in duality.

ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਉਪਾਇ ਵਿਗਸੈ ਆਪੇ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਇਦਾ ॥੬॥
He created Himself, and rejoiced; He evaluates Himself. ||6||

ਨਾ ਸੁਚਿ ਸੰਜਮੁ ਤੁਲਸੀ ਮਾਲਾ ॥
There was no purification, no self-restraint, no malas of basil seeds.

ਗੋਪੀ ਕਾਨੁ ਨ ਗਊ ਗਆਲਾ ॥
There were no Gopis, no Krishna, no cows or cowherds.

ਤੰਤੁ ਮੰਤੁ ਪਾਖੰਡੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਵੰਸੁ ਵਜਾਇਦਾ ॥੭॥
There were no tantras, no mantras and no hypocrisy; no one played the flute. ||7||

ਕਰਮ ਧਰਮ ਨਹੀ ਮਾਇਆ ਮਾਖੀ ॥
There was no karma, no Dharma, no buzzing fly of Maya.

ਜਾਤਿ ਜਨਮੁ ਨਹੀ ਦੀਸੈ ਆਖੀ ॥
Social class and birth were not seen with any eyes.

ਮਮਤਾ ਜਾਲੁ ਕਾਲੁ ਨਹੀ ਮਾਥੈ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਕਿਸੈ ਧਿਆਇਦਾ ॥੮॥
There was no noose of attachment, no death inscribed upon the forehead; no one meditated on anything. ||8||

ਨਿੰਦੁ ਬਿੰਦੁ ਨਹੀ ਜੀਉ ਨ ਜਿੰਦੋ ॥
There was no slander, no seed, no soul and no life.

ਨਾ ਤਦਿ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਨਾ ਮਾਛਿੰਦੋ ॥
There was no Gorakh and no Maachhindra.

ਨਾ ਤਦਿ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਕੁਲ ਓਪਤਿ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਗਣਤ ਗਣਾਇਦਾ ॥੯॥
There was no spiritual wisdom or meditation, no ancestry or creation, no reckoning of accounts. ||9||

ਵਰਨ ਭੇਖ ਨਹੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਣ ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ॥
There were no castes or social classes, no religious robes, no Brahmin or Kshatriya.

ਦੇਉ ਨ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਗਊ ਗਾਇਤ੍ਰੀ ॥
There were no demi-gods or temples, no cows or Gaayatri prayer.

ਹੋਮ ਜਗ ਨਹੀ ਤੀਰਥਿ ਨਾਵਣੁ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਪੂਜਾ ਲਾਇਦਾ ॥੧੦॥
There were no burnt offerings, no ceremonial feasts, no cleansing rituals at sacred shrines of pilgrimage; no one worshipped in adoration. ||10||

ਨਾ ਕੋ ਮੁਲਾ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਕਾਜੀ ॥
There was no Mullah, there was no Qazi.

ਨਾ ਕੋ ਸੇਖੁ ਮਸਾਇਕੁ ਹਾਜੀ ॥
There was no Shaykh, or pilgrims to Mecca.

ਰਈਅਤਿ ਰਾਉ ਨ ਹਉਮੈ ਦੁਨੀਆ ਨਾ ਕੋ ਕਹਣੁ ਕਹਾਇਦਾ ॥੧੧॥
There was no king or subjects, and no worldly egotism; no one spoke of himself. ||11||

ਭਾਉ ਨ ਭਗਤੀ ਨਾ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤੀ ॥
There was no love or devotion, no Shiva or Shakti - no energy or matter.

ਸਾਜਨੁ ਮੀਤੁ ਬਿੰਦੁ ਨਹੀ ਰਕਤੀ ॥
There were no friends or companions, no semen or blood.

ਆਪੇ ਸਾਹੁ ਆਪੇ ਵਣਜਾਰਾ ਸਾਚੇ ਏਹੋ ਭਾਇਦਾ ॥੧੨॥
He Himself is the banker, and He Himself is the merchant. Such is the Pleasure of the Will of the True Lord. ||12||

ਬੇਦ ਕਤੇਬ ਨ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤਿ ਸਾਸਤ ॥
There were no Vedas, Korans or Bibles, no Simritees or Shaastras.

ਪਾਠ ਪੁਰਾਣ ਉਦੈ ਨਹੀ ਆਸਤ ॥
There was no recitation of the Puraanas, no sunrise or sunset.

ਕਹਤਾ ਬਕਤਾ ਆਪਿ ਅਗੋਚਰੁ ਆਪੇ ਅਲਖੁ ਲਖਾਇਦਾ ॥੧੩॥
The Unfathomable Lord Himself was the speaker and the preacher; the unseen Lord Himself saw everything. ||13||

ਜਾ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਣਾ ਤਾ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥
When He so willed, He created the world.

ਬਾਝੁ ਕਲਾ ਆਡਾਣੁ ਰਹਾਇਆ ॥
Without any supporting power, He sustained the universe.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਉਪਾਏ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਵਧਾਇਦਾ ॥੧੪॥
He created Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva; He fostered enticement and attachment to Maya. ||14||

ਵਿਰਲੇ ਕਉ ਗੁਰਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੁਣਾਇਆ ॥
How rare is that person who listens to the Word of the Guru's Shabad.

ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੇਖੈ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਸਬਾਇਆ ॥
He created the creation, and watches over it; the Hukam of His Command is over all.

ਖੰਡ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ ਪਾਤਾਲ ਅਰੰਭੇ ਗੁਪਤਹੁ ਪਰਗਟੀ ਆਇਦਾ ॥੧੫॥
He formed the planets, solar systems and nether regions, and brought what was hidden to manifestation. ||15||

ਤਾ ਕਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਕੋਈ ॥
No one knows His limits.

ਪੂਰੇ ਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਸੋਝੀ ਹੋਈ ॥
This understanding comes from the Perfect Guru.

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਾਚਿ ਰਤੇ ਬਿਸਮਾਦੀ ਬਿਸਮ ਭਏ ਗੁਣ ਗਾਇਦਾ ॥੧੬॥੩॥੧੫॥
O Nanak, those who are attuned to the Truth are wonderstruck; singing His Glorious Praises, they are filled with wonder. ||16||3||15||

 

[Madhuri]

As for that final stanza, I think we can only speculate about it. Who was the author? Is there some deeper meanings?
In Hinduism we do have a creation story, which I have read in the Srimad Bhagavatam.

And GURSIKH, this is the Hinduism DIR.

 

[Onkara]

And GURSIKH, this is the Hinduism DIR.

Apologies my friends, this was my fault, I quoted from the Sikh scripture to demonstrate a point in a few precious words.

 

[GURSIKH]

And GURSIKH, this is the Hinduism DIR.

you can delete my post , if i unintentionally offended anyone or if its OFF-TOPIC .

 

[zenzero]

Friend Charzino,

This is what could get from the net on the Creation hymn of Rig Veda 10.129

The non-dualistic school of Vedanta Philosophy accepts God as the creator of this world. But it holds the view that the world is only an apparent transformation of God. God, using his power of "magic" (called MAYA) has created this world. This world is real to those who are under the spell of God's Maya. It is not real to God. From His standpoint he has not really created the world. To us, it only appears to be real to us, who are under the sway of His Maya. Thus, from our point of view, God the Creator also seems to be "real". As one would notice, in the last lines of the hymn of creation doubts have been raised about the real creation of this world.

Personal understanding if there is still a question arising; the mind is present and so is God and creation and when the mind is totally Still there is neither the creator or the created and that is exactly what gurugranth has explained aptly shared by friend Gursikh.

Friends, also like to state that Sanatan Dharma is wrongly labelled as *hinduism* and taken as a separate way/path which it is not. It is an open system where all paths /ways are part of this eternal law of existence and every form or no-form follows it including the sikhs, christians, buddhists humans etc.
If we do not accept it ourselves how can we make others and even RF administrators understand that?
Love & rgds

 

[Madhuri]

you can delete my post , if i unintentionally offended anyone or if its OFF-TOPIC .

Sorry, my mistake. Your post was in line. I didn't realise you were replying to Onkarah.

 

[Wannabe Yogi]

Im interested in people's opinions on the last stanza and especially the last line, what do you think it means and its implications?

I have even seen it translated in a way that seems Agnostic. "This" Myth the Nasadiya Sukta seems to be in inline with the Idea the personal God Ishwara is with in Maya. Before creation there was no Maya so there was only Brahman.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

the One who looks down on it,
in the highest heaven, only He knows
or perhaps even He does not know''

This implies the One may know or not know.

Since concepts such as 'knowing' and 'not knowing' constitute a dualistic complementary opposite pair, the astute student realizes that there is a point being made here,...i.e. to meditate on the Oneness beyond knowing and not knowing.

 

[atmarama]

This question should be put to the spiritual master

 

[Madhuri]

This implies the One may know or not know.

Since concepts such as 'knowing' and 'not knowing' constitute a dualistic complementary opposite pair, the astute student realizes that there is a point being made here,...i.e. to meditate on the Oneness beyond knowing and not knowing.

Knowledge is a characteristic of Spirit. How could there be not-knowing?

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Knowledge is a characteristic of Spirit. How could there be not-knowing?

If you consider the context, it is from the perspective of the mortal writer (not the One), who understands with respect to the Supreme, the absolute One is beyond all secondary (conceptual) knowing and description, yet must use words (conceptualizations) as an expedient to allude to the non-conceivable non-dual ONE.

Brahman....
can't be confined by any spacial circumscriptions
can't be delimited by any time constraints
can't be restrained by any conceivable powers
can't be described by any knowledge
And can't be known by any knowledge.

IOW, to know that you can't know is to 'know'.

 

[Madhuri]

If you consider the context, it is from the perspective of the mortal writer (not the One), who understands with respect to the Supreme, the absolute One is beyond all secondary (conceptual) knowing and description, yet must use words (conceptualizations) as an expedient to allude to the non-conceivable non-dual ONE.

Brahman....
can't be confined by any spacial circumscriptions
can't be delimited by any time constraints
can't be restrained by any conceivable powers
can't be described by any knowledge
And can't be known by any knowledge.

IOW, to know that you can't know is to 'know'.

Ah ok, I think I misunderstood your previous post. I see what you are saying now.

 

[Ben Dhyan]

Ah ok, I think I misunderstood your previous post. I see what you are saying now.

Yes Madhuri. it is the understanding that everything that my heart, soul, mind and body 'thirsted' for was beyond mortal comprehension, is something that has earned my eternal gratitude to Hindu wisdom. It liberated my mind from taking the conceptual narrative of religion literally and allowed it to 'flow' into the limitless ocean beyond time and space.

:namaste

 

[atmarama]

the One who looks down on it,
in the highest heaven, only He knows
or perhaps even He does not know'' -Rig Veda 10. 129

Im interested in people's opinions on the last stanza and especially the last line, what do you think it means and its implications?

In Hinduism we do have a creation story, which I have read in the Srimad Bhagavatam.

All vedic literatures are consistent, and according to Srimad Bhagavatam that One is Krsna - because He is infinite, even He does not completely understand Himself, yet He always does. Truly acyinta... inconceivable

 

[atanu]

There are three creation hymns in Rig Veda. Nasadiya is held as the pinnacle. The following is an alternative translation of the last paragraph by Prof. Raimundo Pannikar. I understand this translation better.

----That out of which creation has arisen,
whether it held it firm or it did not,
He who surveys it in the highest heaven,
He surely knows - or maybe He does not!

I note the following:

1.There indeed is a surveyor of all in the highest heaven and when IT sees there is creation. When IT does not, there is no creation and no created.

2. Nasadiya sukta corresponds microcosmically to our sleeping and waking cycle everyday.

Om