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Creationism v Evolution

Okay all you out there, convince me. I was brought up Christian, recently looked at Islam but now questioning everything. If we have evidence of man's ancestors found at various places on earth how does this equate with religious doctrine? (Adam). I wonder about complexity of our bodys evolving over long time but....?
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Okay all you out there, convince me. I was brought up Christian, recently looked at Islam but now questioning everything. If we have evidence of man's ancestors found at various places on earth how does this equate with religious doctrine? (Adam). I wonder about complexity of our bodys evolving over long time but....?

Adam and Eve were the new creation from the previous ones which went extinct by God's will.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Why is it that a person can see a painting of a flower and know that an artist designed and m ade that painting but when he sees a real flower he thinks it just popped into existence somehow. Or someone can see a car rolling down the street and know it was designed and built by engineers and mechanics but he can see a dog running down the street and think it just evolved from pond scum. Satan blinds people to where they see what they want to see.
I grew up in a fundamentalist Protestant church that pretty much taught what you seem to believe, but upon doing the research over many years found out that I was not being told the Truth in regards to evolution. Needless to say, I left that church in disgust, even though I liked the people there and even the pastor. I eventually went into anthropology, and ended up teaching it for roughly 30 years.

My point is that any religious or secular group that tries to convince anyone that there hasn't been an evolutionary process is simply not telling the Truth.
 

arthra

Baha'i
Okay all you out there, convince me. I was brought up Christian, recently looked at Islam but now questioning everything. If we have evidence of man's ancestors found at various places on earth how does this equate with religious doctrine? (Adam). I wonder about complexity of our bodys evolving over long time but....?

In the Baha'i Faith we accept that there is evolution... and creation... We believe God is continuing to create and that we are evolving...

"Know that nothing which exists remains in a state of repose, that is to say, all things are in motion. Everything is either growing or declining, all things are either coming from non-existence into being, or going from existence into non-existence. So this flower, this hyacinth, during a certain period of time was coming from the world of non-existence into being, and now it is going from being into non-existence. This state of motion is said to be essential -- that is, natural; it cannot be separated from beings because it is their essential requirement, as it is the essential requirement of fire to burn."

~ Abdu'l-Baha,

We also believe there were prophets before Adam.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
In the Baha'i Faith we accept that there is evolution... and creation... We believe God is continuing to create and that we are evolving...

"Know that nothing which exists remains in a state of repose, that is to say, all things are in motion. Everything is either growing or declining, all things are either coming from non-existence into being, or going from existence into non-existence. So this flower, this hyacinth, during a certain period of time was coming from the world of non-existence into being, and now it is going from being into non-existence. This state of motion is said to be essential -- that is, natural; it cannot be separated from beings because it is their essential requirement, as it is the essential requirement of fire to burn."

~ Abdu'l-Baha,

We also believe there were prophets before Adam.

Coming from non existence into being doesn't mean evolution.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
There were no previous ones. Human race started with Adam and Eve.

This word "human" doesn't exist, it is our invention, Adam is the best of the creation.

We have certainly created man in the best of stature. (95:4)

He created the heavens and earth in truth and formed you and perfected your forms; and to Him is the [final] destination.(64:3)
 

arthra

Baha'i
Coming from non existence into being doesn't mean evolution.


"Non-existence" in this case is a relative term:

"...absolute non-existence cannot become existence. If the beings were absolutely non-existent, existence would not have come into being. Therefore, as the Essence of Unity, that is the existence of God, is everlasting and eternal -- that is to say, it has neither beginning nor end -- it is certain that this world of existence, this endless universe, has neither beginning nor end."

~ Abdu'l-Baha,
 
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FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
"Non-existence" in this case is a relative term:

"...absolute non-existence cannot become existence. If the beings were absolutely non-existent, existence would not have come into being. Therefore, as the Essence of Unity, that is the existence of God, is everlasting and eternal -- that is to say, it has neither beginning nor end -- it is certain that this world of existence, this endless universe, has neither beginning nor end."

~ Abdu'l-Baha,

So you don't agree that the universe is about 13.8 billions years old ?
 

arthra

Baha'i
So you don't agree that the universe is about 13.8 billions years old ?

How many times has the age of the universe been estimated and extended beyond previous estimates?

"...as the Essence of Unity, that is the existence of God, is everlasting and eternal -- that is to say, it has neither beginning nor end -- it is certain that this world of existence, this endless universe, has neither beginning nor end. Yes, it may be that one of the parts of the universe, one of the globes, for example, may come into existence, or may be disintegrated, but the other endless globes are still existing; the universe would not be disordered nor destroyed; on the contrary, existence is eternal and perpetual."

~ Abdu'l-Baha,
 
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arthra

Baha'i
Read the last sentence of the Wikipedia article on the age of the universe:

More recently, in February 2015, an alternative view to extend the Big Bang model was presented that suggests the Universe had no beginning or singularity and that the age of the Universe may be infinite.[25][26][27]

Age of the universe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

All we really have are estimates..

The explanation for the age of the universe is a variable.. Baha'is really have no problems with scientific data and we would hope that science and religion can agree...

"...religion must be in conformity with science and reason, so that it may influence the hearts of men."

Tablet to the Hague)
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
Read the last sentence of the Wikipedia article on the age of the universe:

More recently, in February 2015, an alternative view to extend the Big Bang model was presented that suggests the Universe had no beginning or singularity and that the age of the Universe may be infinite.[25][26][27]

Age of the universe - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

All we really have are estimates..

The explanation for the age of the universe is a variable.. Baha'is really have no problems with scientific data and we would hope that science and religion can agree...

"...religion must be in conformity with science and reason, so that it may influence the hearts of men."

Tablet to the Hague)
When dealing with the age of the universe, the next question is where is the line going to be drawn? Based on evidence that pretty hard to dispute, 13.8 billion appears to be pretty much on target as it was just adjusted by much less than .1 billion just last year.

Where the "infinite" comes into play however, is if one draws the line, not at the expansion out of singularity but before that. Indeed, many cosmologists hypothesize that everything may go back into infinity, which is slightly older than I am.
 

Mohammad Nur Syamsu

Well-Known Member
Okay all you out there, convince me. I was brought up Christian, recently looked at Islam but now questioning everything. If we have evidence of man's ancestors found at various places on earth how does this equate with religious doctrine? (Adam). I wonder about complexity of our bodys evolving over long time but....?

First note the obvious fact that freedom is real and relevant in the universe. That things can turn out alternative ways, that they do not happen of neccessity.

Having accepted that freedom is real, then it becomes to be a question of how things are decided.

Choosing works as follows, the first decision constrains the next decision: When you choose to go on a holiday in Aruba, and you arrive there, then you will have the option to go to beach. So it means first you decide something, then you have possibilities available around what you have already decided.

Considering what this means for the first decisions by which the universe is created, nothing has been chosen yet, it means the universe can start out fully formed with planets, stars, organisms and all, in a poof. But after these decisions are made, then possibilities around what has already been chosen are more likely.

So we have creation at once at the start of the universe.

Consider next the issue of intelligent design, which is sophisticated ways of deciding occurring in nature, such as human beings choosing. What ways are things decided in the universe in general, and specifically what way is DNA decided.

Looking at DNA shows that it is a world in it's own right. DNA can make diverse creatures such as an ant, a plant and an elephant. Looking at this enormous variety it is then more parsimonious to say DNA can represent anything, instead of saying DNA can only represent things which reproduce. So it means in principle DNA can represent an automobile, or an airplane, it can represent anything. We could put a representation of an airplaine into DNA. But of course one cannot grow an airplane from the DNA containing the representation of the airplane. That the DNA can represent any form is what it means that the DNA is a world in it's own right.

Just as like a 3D computersimulation is a world in it's own right. You can put anything in the 3D computersimulation in principle.

So organisms have DNA and a DNA world. The DNA can be chosen as a whole, in this DNA world.

The hope is that in the future it will be possible to translate the signal from the DNA directly to a 3D computersimulation, so that you can look directly into the dna world of an organism on the computerscreen. It has already been found that DNA is excellently built as a radio send receive transmitter.

So that is some of the technical aspects of creationist science, but what is of more significance is the basic structure of creationism itself. Creationism is the only philosophy which validates both objectivity, facts, and subjectivity, opinion, into distinct categories. Other philosophies only validate one or the other. For example materialism only validates facts, postmodernism only validates opinion.

In creationism all questions about what it is that makes a decision turn out the way it does are categorically subjective, and all questions about the way the decision turns out are categorically objective. These categories never cross over into each other. So with creationism you can exactly describe how the earth is created, and you can also express your opinion that the earth is beautiful.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Adam and Eve were the new creation from the previous ones which went extinct by God's will.
Who were the previous ones? Humans? Where is the fossil record of these pre-human humans? Is there any evidence to support this view beyond scripture?
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Who were the previous ones? Humans? Where is the fossil record of these pre-human humans? Is there any evidence to support this view beyond scripture?

The sons of Adam and Eve are the best of the creation, the best stature and the best look compared to the previous creations.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
Okay all you out there, convince me. I was brought up Christian, recently looked at Islam but now questioning everything. If we have evidence of man's ancestors found at various places on earth how does this equate with religious doctrine? (Adam). I wonder about complexity of our bodys evolving over long time but....?

I thought Piltdown man proved man's evolution a long time ago! :)

But the problem with 'evolving over a long time' is that the fossil records shows the opposite- abrupt jumps, sudden appearances. 'as if just planted there with no evolutionary history' as Dawkins puts it. Species accidentally drastically improving themselves with new emergent functionality, is problematic over vast timescales, far less in brief explosions like the Cambrian. And this also happens to accidentally produce a single sentient being capable of pondering these questions and acknowledging God?
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Alright, but can you answer my question, or should I assume that the answer is no?

Your Lord is Free of all wants; (He is) the Lord of Mercy. If He wants, He can wipe you out, and have another people _ whomever He wants _ succeed you, just as He raised you from the genes of a different nation.(6:133)

From the verse it's understood that the previous creation weren't similar to us but we were raised from their genes.
 

leibowde84

Veteran Member
Your Lord is Free of all wants; (He is) the Lord of Mercy. If He wants, He can wipe you out, and have another people _ whomever He wants _ succeed you, just as He raised you from the genes of a different nation.(6:133)

From the verse it's understood that the previous creation weren't similar to us but we were raised from their genes.
Do you think that provides a valid example for morality? I mean isn't God all goodness and justice. So, shouldn't we be able to follow his example? Or do we always have to give God the benefit of the doubt simply because it's God?
 
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