Creationist evidence...

[McBell]

I have a question for you.

What evolutionary advantage does this skin over the eyes serve?

As my understanding of evolutionary theory states that an evolved trait will only permeate a species if it gives an advantage?

-Q

If a mutation does not adversely effect the species with a mutation that makes it better fit to survive, then the non-adversely affecting mutation will also carry on.

A mutation does not have to be beneficial in order to continue within a species.
Though said mutation does have to also occur within the same ones that have mutations that help it survive.

 

[Landerage]

I know what you are getting at. There are a lot of things in nature that seems to be built just for us (oxygen to breathe, moderate temperature, meat to eat) and it seems as if the universe was made just for us. However I will throw out another possibility. What if we were made for the universe? What if evolution adapted us to take advantage of the good things in nature?

You did not directly answer why God would give some cave salamanders eyes when they would never see light, and their eyes were made non-functional by permenantly covering them up. Evolution explain this perfectly. Once there was a salamander that had eyes. It was pushed into the cave ecological niche. And this is why it is in a cave and it has eyes.

The human genome is constantly being hit with mutations most of which are bad. Since most mutations reduce gene function, those with these mutations are weeded out by natural selection so those without the very bad mutations more likely survive and the mutation slowly gets weeded out of the population. If a gene becomes useless mutations will strike it and disable it, but since the gene is not being used, having these bad mutations will not harm the animal. These mutations will collect until they spread through the population.

Mutations happened so to the salamander that his eyes got covered by skin. Usually if this happened in animals that lived in daylight, those with these mutations would not be able to see and would get weeded out by natural selection. But since these salamanders live in dark caves, these mutations were allowed to take over the population.

Your getting close but im not talking about things that are vital for humans to survive, im talking about things that aren't vital for humans, but made our life more rich. So gold isn't vital for humans but economies depends on gold, oil aswell and other resources and evolution dont connect between that and the evolution of a human being... what if trees weren't made of wood then w'd lack a great source too, what if there was only one nutrition source for humans which blend nutriments and water, and we were forced to eat just that for the rest of our lives ? What if the sun didn't have a slow sunrise, so during the night, in a second the sun comes up and hurt people's eyes. Well at this point w're on two crossroad is or the world is created to fit human, or human were evolved to what fit the world but still it's quite weird for me to say that all life came from a tiny living thing and began evolving etc without a creator who engineered that system and guided it, because the begining of life is still a mystery for me, I remember one of my teachers saying that life began when a very powerful electric bolt hit the ground and something happened and life began, It's awkward... I know about natural selection but I beleive it's the way of God of changing things, and to show how delicate nature is, however humans brought polution and little mistakes without seeing the outcome unbalanced everythin from the ozone hole, to inodations and other catastrophic results, so if humans didn't interfer in nature everything would have went well, that's where I beleive that it's only one creator who done that, because if there was more creators it would end up the wrong way
As for the salamander, I told you most weird things we find in nature hides great wisdoms for humans to learn from. Your seeing things in a time frame, and that there was this salamander who had eyes then his specie went through caves and explains the "how" factor but not the basic "why" which I beleive is to take wisdom out of it, and humans have alot to learn from nature still. I remember asking God one day about why there was a time where different species of human beings existed together and they weren't able to marry each other because they are from different species? The answer came a few days later, and God implied to me that it's a way to see the true beleivers from the non beleivers, then I learned that beleiving is also about trusting what God said. That's a personal story, which you can beleive or reject but it's just to tell you that sometimes we need to see things from a different angle to understand the "why".

 

[Landerage]

your empty threats smell of desperation.


Still waiting for you to present some logic.

desperation of what, im only replying so i could give you something convincing enough but if you refuse to tell me what's wrong with the Quranic miracle I wrote then that's a smell of desperation for me

 

[The Neo Nerd]

If a mutation does not adversely effect the species with a mutation that makes it better fit to survive, then the non-adversely affecting mutation will also carry on.

A mutation does not have to be beneficial in order to continue within a species.
Though said mutation does have to also occur within the same ones that have mutations that help it survive.

OK ta.

Is there any idea of which mutation the skin over the eyes piggy back on?

-Q

 

[McBell]

OK ta.

Is there any idea of which mutation the skin over the eyes piggy back on?

-Q

I have absolutely no idea.

 

[McBell]

desperation of what, im only replying so i could give you something convincing enough but if you refuse to tell me what's wrong with the Quranic miracle I wrote then that's a smell of desperation for me

It is the desperation of your position.
You twist what the verse says and make the verse appear to reveal something that you think the people of the time it was written were far to stupid to understand or comprehend.

Now since your "miracle" is nothing more than your wishful thinking that those people were a big bunch of retards...

 

[Landerage]

Completely beside the point. My point was: suggesting that a literal belief in the creation story, in and of itself, would somehow provide the believer with a sense of purpose or meaning in life doesn't make sense, since the story suggests no meaning.

Not just talking as a creationism supporter but also as a muslim

Then how does it make any sense to offer it in the course of explaining why you believe what you believe

Debating is about explaining/defending the basis for your opinions.

I did defend my opinion with a proof that many still dont wana tell me why it's not a proof. And I was talking about people who put it all on evolution theory, and doesn't seek a spiritual path which might lead them to find a true path, so they end up to death without any spiritual beleive that might save them from what i call Hell. My beleives isn't a choice I made to get a probable salvation, but when I started it was a seek for a spiritual path so I dont end up with nothing after I die, but then many things came up and made beleiving not just a path I chose, but a whole type of life and now I see it as the true path. So since evolution doesn't cross to a spiritual side, why many die without seeking a path?

I'm not criticizing you, I'm challenging your opinions. That's what debate is for. And "stop criticizing me" isn't valid defense of an opinion (it's usually just a plea for mercy by someone once they begin to realize they have no valid defense for their opinions)

already answered

So you agree that many theologies make more sense than Creationism?

Well as I said, I am a creatonism supporter because I am a muslim, and I am a muslim because it's a whole package that I know is descent from God and provides explanation for anything which doesn't contradict science. So if other thelogies is about seeing what's right and wrong in religion and what contradicts and divide opinions then it doesn't make sense for me, and that's far from beleiving in a creator and having trust in what he said wether people see it right or wrong, because since I am a muslim I know God have the greatest wisdom and as such I folow what's been told by him, God was introduced, then I got to know him then to love him and now to obey him.

And how does that fit into this conversation?
Your point was that, without a literal belief in the Creation myth, life has no meaning. You've yet to explain the connection.

Life have no meaning if oneself didn't chose to beleive in a creator because not beleiving in a creator means there is no soul, and the death of the body is the end of everything, and life itself have no point then.

A belief in god is a separate issue.

for me I can't talk about a creator without invoking God, because to beleive in a creator It was through beleiving in God who is more then a creator. But im only invoking God in the matter of creation for this thread I think so far.

And your implying that I have no valid evidence to what I say, well I dont need evidence because you can't disprove what I said that makes the two of us not having a valid evidence.

 

[Landerage]

It is the desperation of your position.
You twist what the verse says and make the verse appear to reveal something that you think the people of the time it was written were far to stupid to understand or comprehend.

Now since your "miracle" is nothing more than your wishful thinking that those people were a big bunch of retards...

I twisted nothing, in fact that verse is one the most verses that can be very accurately translated from arabic to english
People didn't have the technology to scan every inch of the earth which we do have it now. I dont call my grand mother a retard because she dont know how to use a computer, she simply didn't have one at her time. Shame on you for this cheap reply... Go get me something scientifical and logical to discuss about that could disprove that miracle, I think outlaw is still searching. Good luck

 

[Dan4reason]

Your getting close but im not talking about things that are vital for humans to survive, im talking about things that aren't vital for humans, but made our life more rich. So gold isn't vital for humans but economies depends on gold, oil aswell and other resources and evolution dont connect between that and the evolution of a human being... what if trees weren't made of wood then w'd lack a great source too, what if there was only one nutrition source for humans which blend nutriments and water, and we were forced to eat just that for the rest of our lives ?

Gold happens to be an element that will be produced by stars so it is not surprising it is here. If there is no design to life, then we have evolved to fit the conditions of earth, both mentally and physically. Nature contains a huge variety of some elements that will harm us, some won't have any effect, and some will be beneficial, by chance. We humans have a whole range of techological applications, so some element each with a certain set of properties will become useful in a certain situation, maybe with a little bit of work.

If there had been no oil, that would have been a missed oppurtunity, but we would have probably used something else. Same with wood. Think of all the possible resources that we don't have. I don't see design in the fact that we happen to live around a few natural resources.

It like saying that every lucky that happens to you is from God. The fact is that life will give you a mix of good, bad, and neutral things by chance, and that many good things happen because you work for them anyway. If you see the hand of God in good things, why don't you see it in bad things? This argument comes from a misunderstanding of probability.

What if the sun didn't have a slow sunrise, so during the night, in a second the sun comes up and hurt people's eyes. Well at this point w're on two crossroad is or the world is created to fit human, or human were evolved to what fit the world but still it's quite weird for me to say that all life came from a tiny living thing and began evolving etc without a creator who engineered that system and guided it, because the begining of life is still a mystery for me, I remember one of my teachers saying that life began when a very powerful electric bolt hit the ground and something happened and life began, It's awkward... I know about natural selection but I beleive it's the way of God of changing things, and to show how delicate nature is, however humans brought polution and little mistakes without seeing the outcome unbalanced everythin from the ozone hole, to inodations and other catastrophic results, so if humans didn't interfer in nature everything would have went well, that's where I beleive that it's only one creator who done that, because if there was more creators it would end up the wrong way

Evolution feels weird to you because we are made to look for design even when it is not there.

If the sun did not have a low sunrise, our bodies and emotions would have adapted to that. Nature is delicate and there has been a half dozen extinctions, but these extinctions have never killed everything and only sparked further evolution. There are many species that are hurt by us, and we have shaken up the balance of nature and there is a good chance we are starting another mass extinction. But nature will eventually settle as it always does. Usually with evolution, nature changed gradually and that is all right. The problem happens when we change things all at once, then species will start dying and we will have to wait a very long time for nature to settle.

As for the salamander, I told you most weird things we find in nature hides great wisdoms for humans to learn from. Your seeing things in a time frame, and that there was this salamander who had eyes then his specie went through caves and explains the "how" factor but not the basic "why" which I beleive is to take wisdom out of it, and humans have alot to learn from nature still. I remember asking God one day about why there was a time where different species of human beings existed together and they weren't able to marry each other because they are from different species? The answer came a few days later, and God implied to me that it's a way to see the true beleivers from the non beleivers, then I learned that beleiving is also about trusting what God said. That's a personal story, which you can beleive or reject but it's just to tell you that sometimes we need to see things from a different angle to understand the "why".

I do not see where you directly answered my question but I will respond the best I can. We already know why the salamander lost its ability to see. It adapted to a cave. Why would Allah give us false evidence for evolution just to trick us (if that is what you meant)? Isn't is just easier to believe that Allah made us through evolution?

 

[Dan4reason]

I have a question for you.

What evolutionary advantage does this skin over the eyes serve?

As my understanding of evolutionary theory states that an evolved trait will only permeate a species if it gives an advantage?

-Q

Actually genetic drift is also a factor to consider. Here is a good page on it.
Random Genetic Drift
Pretty much genetic drift is when neutral traits spread through the population by chance. One argument is that skin covered the salamander's eyes because these eyes were no longer beneficial and so could be played around with. In caves, the eye is a neutral trait, and so can be played around with by genetic drift.

Another argument is that this happened because eyes can get infected or damaged, and so covering them with skin was actually beneficial.

 

[tumbleweed41]

Still Waiting for Creationist Evidence.

 

[McBell]

I twisted nothing, in fact that verse is one the most verses that can be very accurately translated from arabic to english
People didn't have the technology to scan every inch of the earth which we do have it now. I dont call my grand mother a retard because she dont know how to use a computer, she simply didn't have one at her time. Shame on you for this cheap reply... Go get me something scientifical and logical to discuss about that could disprove that miracle, I think outlaw is still searching. Good luck

It is not a cheap reply.
It is what it is.

Your "miracle" relies on your proposed ignorance of the people at the time.

In other words, you are trying to substantiate your unsubstantiated claim with another unsubstantiated claim.

It is nothing more than your using the Forer Effect.

 

[painted wolf]

Do you really believe what is taught in high schools is only what has been found to be credible?

Nope... I said it should be. Unfortunately there are a lot of people spending a lot of money to get nonsense added.

High school? What about universities? And your comparing the evidence for creation to astrology, etc. is both unfounded and unfair. Rather, ToE proponents can be compared to the astrologers and flat-earth advocates who bristle at any who dare question their convictions.

No it isn't. Michael Behe even made the comparison and he was supposed to be testifying on your side.

The evidence for intelligent design is compelling, even overwhelming, a fact ToE apologists want to hide.

Not really. It sounds nice but if you actually look at the science, you see there isn't any.

So an atmosphere of disdain and antagonism toward open discussion of the facts exists amongst many evolutionists. Their typical reponse to such questions is "All intelligent people believe in the ToE. Therefore, if you do not believe, you are not intelligent."

I have never, nor have I ever heard another scientist say such a thing.

Nice ad hom. though.

Speaking of those who deny God, Romans 1:21,22 states "although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God nor did they thank him, but they became empty-headed in their reasonings and their unintelligent heart became darkened. Although asserting they were wise, they became foolish."

I'm a theist... your ad hom, is pointless.

If you want to be scientific, do science.... if you want to sling bible quotes, stay in church.

wa:do

 

[Landerage]

Gold happens to be an element that will be produced by stars so it is not surprising it is here. If there is no design to life, then we have evolved to fit the conditions of earth, both mentally and physically. Nature contains a huge variety of some elements that will harm us, some won't have any effect, and some will be beneficial, by chance. We humans have a whole range of techological applications, so some element each with a certain set of properties will become useful in a certain situation, maybe with a little bit of work.

Well what people call chance or coincidence, i call it God's mysterious way of doing things.

If there had been no oil, that would have been a missed oppurtunity, but we would have probably used something else. Same with wood. Think of all the possible resources that we don't have. I don't see design in the fact that we happen to live around a few natural resources.

It like saying that every lucky that happens to you is from God. The fact is that life will give you a mix of good, bad, and neutral things by chance, and that many good things happen because you work for them anyway. If you see the hand of God in good things, why don't you see it in bad things? This argument comes from a misunderstanding of probability.

Well things that are bad, also happen in God's will, such as some people born having mental issues, or physical disability, but in fact to all that Islam have an answer for. There's always the "why" question that science can't answer, every human should have a spiritual side. I understand you have deep appreciation to what science discovered, but I want to ask a personal question, is all life for you simply a coincidence of evolution and processes ? I consider them as tools for greater values such as wisdom, intelligence, beauty, well structured engineering .

Evolution feels weird to you because we are made to look for design even when it is not there.

If the sun did not have a low sunrise, our bodies and emotions would have adapted to that. Nature is delicate and there has been a half dozen extinctions, but these extinctions have never killed everything and only sparked further evolution. There are many species that are hurt by us, and we have shaken up the balance of nature and there is a good chance we are starting another mass extinction. But nature will eventually settle as it always does. Usually with evolution, nature changed gradually and that is all right. The problem happens when we change things all at once, then species will start dying and we will have to wait a very long time for nature to settle.

I do agree with all that, but still admiring that intelligence that is there, natural selection, and that balance, it's something that stimulates beleiving in a creator aswell, and increase my faith for God because that closed system of evolution simply can't just be there by itself. Every action and move is stimulated by something, so going to the first of it u'll find that it is required to have someone that stimulate an action but isn't in itself created by a stimulation, right? So it's required that there is a creator who give an action and is not made by one. That my friend I call God

I do not see where you directly answered my question but I will respond the best I can. We already know why the salamander lost its ability to see. It adapted to a cave. Why would Allah give us false evidence for evolution just to trick us (if that is what you meant)? Isn't is just easier to believe that Allah made us through evolution?

Yes, in fact in nature there is alot of things that can lower your faith if the beleiver is weak, they're obstacles to overcome with profound studying. So it doesn't mean when I come across something that tend to lower my beleives, I should hide but in fact have a deeper profound study and get to the base of the base of it, and doing that always got me back to God and never lowered my faith but moreoever increased it. And I came across an idea the other day that i need to look deeper into it, it is said in heavan our bodies are different then the ones we used on earth. So basing on the creation myth, Adam and Eve had different bodies in heavan then the ones they had on earth, linking that to evolution, God could have transfered the souls of them after they comitted the sin from heaven to earth, and the souls were infused with bodies that are evolution resulted. Because in Islam we beleive the eyes that are given to us on earth cannot see the things in heaven so it is required to have a different body, that was just an idea I had and i need to look more deeper in it. But I do know wherever I dig, ill always find a link to God and never something that would disprove the religion I folowed..

 

[The Neo Nerd]

Actually genetic drift is also a factor to consider. Here is a good page on it.
Random Genetic Drift
Pretty much genetic drift is when neutral traits spread through the population by chance. One argument is that skin covered the salamander's eyes because these eyes were no longer beneficial and so could be played around with. In caves, the eye is a neutral trait, and so can be played around with by genetic drift.

Another argument is that this happened because eyes can get infected or damaged, and so covering them with skin was actually beneficial.

Hi Dan,

Thanks for that.

I have one question.

Is the bottleneck effect essential for a non beneficial trait to permeate an entire population?

 

[Dan4reason]

Well what people call chance or coincidence, i call it God's mysterious way of doing things.

What about when something unlucky happens to you?

[/quote]Well things that are bad, also happen in God's will, such as some people born having mental issues, or physical disability, but in fact to all that Islam have an answer for. There's always the "why" question that science can't answer, every human should have a spiritual side. I understand you have deep appreciation to what science discovered, but I want to ask a personal question, is all life for you simply a coincidence of evolution and processes ? I consider them as tools for greater values such as wisdom, intelligence, beauty, well structured engineering . [/quote]

Evolution operates partly though random processes such as genetic drift and mutations but also by a selective non-random process called natural selection (you already know this of course). So I don't think everything came by chance.

Beauty is a contruct of our emotions. I see the beauty, and wisdom in the natural laws that created us.

I have a question for you. Who made God? Does he exist because of a design explanation or a non-design explanation? If God can exist because of a non-design explanation in all his goodness, power, and knowledge, why not hypothetically mere humans?

We humans are born to look for design and purpose whether it exists or not. Here are a couple interesting articles on the subject.
Children are born believers in God, academic claims - Telegraph
Belief in God is part of human nature - Oxford study - Telegraph

Lets not get too eager to see purpose and design for things, especially when the evidence contradicts such a notion.

I do agree with all that, but still admiring that intelligence that is there, natural selection, and that balance, it's something that stimulates beleiving in a creator aswell, and increase my faith for God because that closed system of evolution simply can't just be there by itself. Every action and move is stimulated by something, so going to the first of it u'll find that it is required to have someone that stimulate an action but isn't in itself created by a stimulation, right? So it's required that there is a creator who give an action and is not made by one. That my friend I call God

Natural selection does not require a designer to make it start. All you need for natural selection is an organism that can reproduce in an environment with limited resources. Evolution follows after that.

Yes, in fact in nature there is alot of things that can lower your faith if the beleiver is weak, they're obstacles to overcome with profound studying. So it doesn't mean when I come across something that tend to lower my beleives, I should hide but in fact have a deeper profound study and get to the base of the base of it, and doing that always got me back to God and never lowered my faith but moreoever increased it. And I came across an idea the other day that i need to look deeper into it, it is said in heavan our bodies are different then the ones we used on earth. So basing on the creation myth, Adam and Eve had different bodies in heavan then the ones they had on earth, linking that to evolution, God could have transfered the souls of them after they comitted the sin from heaven to earth, and the souls were infused with bodies that are evolution resulted. Because in Islam we beleive the eyes that are given to us on earth cannot see the things in heaven so it is required to have a different body, that was just an idea I had and i need to look more deeper in it. But I do know wherever I dig, ill always find a link to God and never something that would disprove the religion I folowed..

So if I don't misunderstand you, are you saying that you can't really explain salamanders with covered-up eyes in caves and just hope that there is a design explanation? That doesn't seem very rational but I guess you have a right to your opinion.

I do have one random question for you. Can you read arabic? I'm just curious.

I do have another question for you concerning creationism. Its a little techical so feel free to ask if you don't understand.

Here are some nearly direct quotes form talkorigins.

The ψη-globin gene is a pseudogene for one of the genes that helps make hemoglobin (the stuff that makes blood red). Pseudogenes are very closely related to functional, protein-coding genes. The similarity involves both the primary DNA sequence and often the specific chromosomal location of the genes. The functional counterparts of pseudogenes are normal genes that are transcribed into mRNA, which is in turn actively translated into functional protein. In contrast, pseudogenes have faulty regulatory sequences that prevent the gene from being transcribed into mRNA, or they have internal stop codons that keep the functional protein from being made.

This specific globin pseudogene is shared among the primates only, in the exact chromosomal location, with the same mutations that destroy its function as a protein-coding gene. The reason for this is because humans and primates inherited this pseudogene from a common ancestor. This is exactly what you would expect from inheritance. So why would God make humans and primates with the same mistake in such a way as to provide strong evidence for common descent?
http://talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section4.html

I already posted this question to another user on this forum. I didn't get a response yet.

 

[Dan4reason]

Hi Dan,

Thanks for that.

I have one question.

Is the bottleneck effect essential for a non beneficial trait to permeate an entire population?

I am not an expert on this but a bottlenecks can sure help along genetic drift but they are not necessary at all. Lets take two alleles: allele A and allele B. Both are neutral. Lets say the population remains constant (no bottleneck) and has 50% allele A and 50% allele B. Over time the percentage with each allel will vary. Sometimes 70% will have allele A, sometimes 30%. If we run this simulation over millions of years, then there is a good change that one allele will take over the population by pure chance.

Here is a graphical example from an anthopology class I was in:

Thanks for the interesting question.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

I am not an expert on this but a bottlenecks can sure help along genetic drift but they are not necessary at all. Lets take two alleles: allele A and allele B. Both are neutral. Lets say the population remains constant (no bottleneck) and has 50% allele A and 50% allele B. Over time the percentage with each allel will vary. Sometimes 70% will have allele A, sometimes 30%. If we run this simulation over millions of years, then there is a good change that one allele will take over the population by pure chance.

Here is a graphical example from an anthopology class I was in:

Thanks for the interesting question.

Awesome, thanks for your answer.

I also think the theory that the skin growing over prevents disease is probable. Especially in warm moist areas underground.

 

[The Neo Nerd]

OK i have another question.

If you don't want to answer it in this thread, or you don't know, or i'm just being irritating i'll start a new thread.

So not all alleles from the parents are expressed in the offspring.

Is the chance of an allele being expressed in the offspring constant or random?

 

[Landerage]

What about when something unlucky happens to you?

Everything so far made sense in my life, not everything is perfect but I did do the best I can and I found God very close to me in everything I do, the good thing and the bad things. When something bad happens to me I review myself and I see if I broke any rule. And sometimes a crisis happens to any of us, but God asks us to have patience because : For indeed, with hardship [will be] ease (94:5) Indeed, with hardship [will be] ease.(94:6) God repeating it twice, means alot of patience is needed but that doesn't mean he have no mercy or he likes to make us suffer.

Evolution operates partly though random processes such as genetic drift and mutations but also by a selective non-random process called natural selection (you already know this of course). So I don't think everything came by chance.

Beauty is a contruct of our emotions. I see the beauty, and wisdom in the natural laws that created us.

Well you think that values are there because there is a physical embodiement in our world. But I think the other way around, physical things exist because values should be taught to humans. I respect both opinions but both of us kinda said alot about it but I hope showed you my point.

I have a question for you. Who made God? Does he exist because of a design explanation or a non-design explanation? If God can exist because of a non-design explanation in all his goodness, power, and knowledge, why not hypothetically mere humans?
We humans are born to look for design and purpose whether it exists or not. Here are a couple interesting articles on the subject.
Children are born believers in God, academic claims - Telegraph
Belief in God is part of human nature - Oxford study - Telegraph

Nobody made God, but God made us and he exist because he told us in religious books that I find no excuse not to beleive in them. The first duty for every human being is to know why is he here on life, and see what's behind his existence in my opinion, explaining things scientificaly doesn't make up for that duty. I did put a proof earlier that was a Qur'anic miracle, but many didn't agree that it was a proof, and until now nobody really answered me about why it's not a proof but some even left the thread so they don't reply... I think it's about people who just refuse to obey a "book" and go to what's good instead of what's right. It's a message sent from God and made sense in me wether in miracles, or everyday life, or things I felt, logic, dreams I had and other reasons, and I chose to folow it because I know it's right basing on all those reasons and I see no reason for anyone not to do so...

Lets not get too eager to see purpose and design for things, especially when the evidence contradicts such a notion.

The evidence "seems" to contradict the notion, but doesn't really disprove anything except for those who want to beleive that it does contradict, then it would be subjective.

Natural selection does not require a designer to make it start. All you need for natural selection is an organism that can reproduce in an environment with limited resources. Evolution follows after that.

I wasn't talking about nature selection, but I said every action requires something that stimulates it, wether it's natural selection, or a organism or anything moving. Going to the bottom in the timeline you will find that it is logicaly required to have something or someone who can stimulate an action, but is not in itself stimulated by one. So for me, it requires that there is a creator who creates but isn't created. So for me it is required to have God to maintain that balance that we find everywhere else it's illogical.

So if I don't misunderstand you, are you saying that you can't really explain salamanders with covered-up eyes in caves and just hope that there is a design explanation? That doesn't seem very rational but I guess you have a right to your opinion.

I already gave my opinion about that, and it's to serve God's wisdom and what seem to most that it contradicts that God is omniscient, and he knows that this salamander won't be using his eyes so why did he created them anyways, I find it a lesson of wisdom as I already said. Of course there is more things that can be related too, and you can find much more convincing examples that would support your opinion, but still ill find an explanation that don't contradicts that God is omniscient... And some things happen for no reason like why God chose our human body shape like that and not the other way, God says not everyone will be led to his path, only those who seeks it will get led by it. And that's perfect correct for me, because God is the greatest, and it's humans who should seek him and not the other way around.

I do have one random question for you. Can you read arabic? I'm just curious.

Yes I can, and you still didn't answer me about if you ever had that urge to have a spiritual side of things? Every human have feelings and emotions, and I beleive there is a spiritual side for every human.

I do have another question for you concerning creationism. Its a little techical so feel free to ask if you don't understand.

Here are some nearly direct quotes form talkorigins.

The ψη-globin gene is a pseudogene for one of the genes that helps make hemoglobin (the stuff that makes blood red). Pseudogenes are very closely related to functional, protein-coding genes. The similarity involves both the primary DNA sequence and often the specific chromosomal location of the genes. The functional counterparts of pseudogenes are normal genes that are transcribed into mRNA, which is in turn actively translated into functional protein. In contrast, pseudogenes have faulty regulatory sequences that prevent the gene from being transcribed into mRNA, or they have internal stop codons that keep the functional protein from being made.

This specific globin pseudogene is shared among the primates only, in the exact chromosomal location, with the same mutations that destroy its function as a protein-coding gene. The reason for this is because humans and primates inherited this pseudogene from a common ancestor. This is exactly what you would expect from inheritance. So why would God make humans and primates with the same mistake in such a way as to provide strong evidence for common descent?
http://talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section4.html

I already posted this question to another user on this forum. I didn't get a response yet.

Ah im trying to remember biology now been a while:faint:
Well a first idea I wanted to say is that, humans dont know everything yet, and things that might seem not useful, could be proved later to be useful and of course there are many examples to this idea.
Not sure if this is quite related to the subject, but as I know God created deseases and viruses and he can send them to any nation and provoke death or suffery to anyone who deserves it. But In your post I didn't see if those pseudogenes are responsible for anything negative on the human body after they are inherited?
God made logic in everything we create and that's to benefit human beings, because without that logic we wouldn't be able to cure ourselves, or understand our bodies etc... Was there a possible logic way for this pseudogene to not be inherited to humans ? and another question, is the presence or the abscence of this pseudogene have same effect on humans ? Or the abscence of it would have launched new benefitial potentials ?