Crediting God

[Falvlun]

I recently had a discussion with someone who is currently going through some financial difficulties. He had been on unemployment for a month. During that month, he pounded the pavements for work, and has also hit the books with a relish, in order to be able to obtain higher certification to make him more marketable. He called all his creditors, and worked out a solution so he wouldn't go bankrupt or lose his home. And, he prayed that God would help him out.

He recently got a job.

He credits God for his ability to stay afloat. God miraculously worked things out so he didn't go bankrupt. God found him this job.

And I just want to shake him and be like, "Dude! God didn't do that. YOU did. YOU are the one who worked so hard to find a job. YOU were the one who was proactive and worked out your finances. YOU are the one that is trying to better yourself."

This sort of thing really irritates me. I understand being thankful. But I do not understand this sort of abject humility or dependency or whatever, that makes believers think that they are not responsible for their success, that they themselves did not earn what they have gotten.

I find it unhealthy. What are your thoughts?

 

[Sunstone]

Something a little different happened to a friend of mine. He and his partner were operating a real estate business in Texas when a contractor defaulted on some money he owed them.

He called up the contractor and discovered the man had gone bankrupt. So, after the contractor filed in court, my friend called him back to make arrangements.

The contractor, however, was having none of it. He wasn't about to pay off his debts. Instead, he told my friend he had "found Jesus, and -- hallelujah! -- Jesus had forgiven him all his former debts and obligations."

I think that contractor might represent a different take on the OP. Different approach to shifting the blame on a deity, but nonetheless, it's still shifting the blame onto a deity.

 

[idav]

Skill is one thing but luck/karma is something else. It definately is better to have both skill and fortunate luck. If karma is against you, skill may not be enough. People don't typically get what we would consider fair distribution based on worthiness.

 

[ChristineES]

Since I believe in God, I do believe that God helps us. I don't believe goes out finds us work, but he helps us to persevere or maybe help us to, say, write a better resume or something. I don't think it is unhealthy to give credit to God but, at the same time, we shouldn't expect something to just fall out of the sky for us when we pray.

I don't see anything wrong with your friend giving credit to God.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

It's funny. You always hears stories about how god helps these people, who are busting their backsides to achieve whatever it is they're going after, but you never hear stories of people who get what they want by just sitting around praying. Sounds kind of suspicious to me.

I've been in that position. Things going bad, and getting worse, praying to god to make it better. But, alas, nothing got better, unless I was actively doing something. It's things like that, that made me realize that I don't believe in any god that does anything for us, we do it all ourselves.

 

[George-ananda]

I don't have a problem with that person's attitude. Sounds like he believes in Effort+God. If such things are consistent with his belief system and where he's at spiritually, then I'm happy for him. Who's to say some higher power didn't aid him in getting the job; we're just guessing.

 

[Falvlun]

Since I believe in God, I do believe that God helps us. I don't believe goes out finds us work, but he helps us to persevere or maybe help us to, say, write a better resume or something. I don't think it is unhealthy to give credit to God but, at the same time, we shouldn't expect something to just fall out of the sky for us when we pray.

I don't see anything wrong with your friend giving credit to God.

I don't have a problem with that person's attitude. Sounds like he believes in Effort+God. If such things are consistent with his belief system and where he's at spiritually, then I'm happy for him. Who's to say some higher power didn't aid him in getting the job; we're just guessing.

My problem is that we do know for a fact that he's the one who put in effort to get him to this point. Why credit someone who might have helped, without any indication of such, and ignore the effort that you actually put into it? It's like Inspector Gadget getting all the credit for solving the case, when it was really Penny and Brain getting the job done all along.

I think it's unhealthy because it ignores, or downplays, the person's very real capabilities. It makes that person think that they had nothing to do with their success, that they are just useless lumps without God. I mean, what's the point of life anyway, if God just does everything?

 

[Awoon]

I recently had a discussion with someone who is currently going through some financial difficulties. He had been on unemployment for a month. During that month, he pounded the pavements for work, and has also hit the books with a relish, in order to be able to obtain higher certification to make him more marketable. He called all his creditors, and worked out a solution so he wouldn't go bankrupt or lose his home. And, he prayed that God would help him out.

He recently got a job.

He credits God for his ability to stay afloat. God miraculously worked things out so he didn't go bankrupt. God found him this job.

And I just want to shake him and be like, "Dude! God didn't do that. YOU did. YOU are the one who worked so hard to find a job. YOU were the one who was proactive and worked out your finances. YOU are the one that is trying to better yourself."

This sort of thing really irritates me. I understand being thankful. But I do not understand this sort of abject humility or dependency or whatever, that makes believers think that they are not responsible for their success, that they themselves did not earn what they have gotten.

I find it unhealthy. What are your thoughts?

Did God guarantee him it wouldn't happen again? He shoulda got a promise from God.

 

[George-ananda]

My problem is that we do know for a fact that he's the one who put in effort to get him to this point. Why credit someone who might have helped, without any indication of such, and ignore the effort that you actually put into it? It's like Inspector Gadget getting all the credit for solving the case, when it was really Penny and Brain getting the job done all along.

I think it's unhealthy because it ignores, or downplays, the person's very real capabilities. It makes that person think that they had nothing to do with their success, that they are just useless lumps without God. I mean, what's the point of life anyway, if God just does everything?

Are you really thinking that he really thinks his efforts had nothing to do with it? I don't.

 

[Quintessence]

This sort of thing really irritates me. I understand being thankful. But I do not understand this sort of abject humility or dependency or whatever, that makes believers think that they are not responsible for their success, that they themselves did not earn what they have gotten.

I would be careful about assuming that gratitude towards the gods means that the person takes no credit for their success.

I think that everyone - theist or non-theist - recognizes that the course of events is never solely determined by an individual. There are many, many factors involved... most of which are far outside of our control. You do what you can within your limited power, and the rest is completely out of your hands. For some, the forces responsible for the course of events are incorporated into a god-concept. Giving thanks to that is a grateful acknowledgement of how factors outside of your control operated in your favor; it is not a complete dismissal of your own contributions.

Sometimes, it isn't even that complicated. It's a simple, natural, and very human emotional response to something going right: joyful thankfulness. I don't understand what's unhealthy about gratitude.

 

[Quintessence]

Are you really thinking that he really thinks his efforts had nothing to do with it? I don't.

Exactly. Neither do I.

Just like I don't believe any non-theist exists who has the extreme hubris to say they are 100% responsible for everything that happens to them and is a total ingrate.

 

[1137]

It irks me when people do this, it's very self depreciating and rather depressed actually. Give yourself credit where credit is due, the person in question got themselves back on that horse, adding God to the equation is absolutely and completely unnecessary. Give yourself credit, understand and accept your power. If you must, thank God for creating the universe, since that time he doesn't seem to be involved in the slightest.

 

[1137]

Exactly. Neither do I.

Just like I don't believe any non-theist exists who has the extreme hubris to say they are 100% responsible for everything that happens to them and is a total ingrate.

Uh there's a difference between giving yourself credit / natural influence and "goddidit"...

 

[Falvlun]

Are you really thinking that he really thinks his efforts had nothing to do with it? I don't.

I would be careful about assuming that gratitude towards the gods means that the person takes no credit for their success.

Admittedly, I think that would be hard to believe.

But then what? Are these people merely paying lip service? Are they just trying to sound holy or humble by claiming it was all God's doing?

And furthermore, the way it is phrased and intended, it appears as if they think that God was the catalyst, the cause for their good effect. If not for God's intervention, they would not have succeeded.

So, even if they do think that they contributed, their contribution is necessarily rather meaningless, since if God hadn't put his bit in, then the whole thing would've failed.

I think that everyone - theist or non-theist - recognizes that the course of events is never solely determined by an individual. There are many, many factors involved... most of which are far outside of our control. You do what you can within your limited power, and the rest is completely out of your hands. For some, the forces responsible for the course of events are incorporated into a god-concept. Giving thanks to that is a grateful acknowledgement of how factors outside of your control operated in your favor; it is not a complete dismissal of your own contributions.

Sometimes, it isn't even that complicated. It's a simple, natural, and very human emotional response to something going right: joyful thankfulness. I don't understand what's unhealthy about gratitude.

Hehe. This reminded me of all those people who got all huffy about Obama's "You didn't build that" comment. I wonder how many of those people, who were so disdainful of the idea that some mere human aided their success, accounted God as one of their benefactors.

As mentioned above, I understand thankfulness. I understand understanding that you personally are not responsible for everything and that sometimes the cards fall in your favor. But I do not understand minimizing the role you actually have played in favor of thanking a cosmic Something for something It might have done. Especially since the people who may actually have had a hand in your success are rarely acknowledged or thanked.

 

[Quintessence]

Admittedly, I think that would be hard to believe.

But then what? Are these people merely paying lip service? Are they just trying to sound holy or humble by claiming it was all God's doing?

I don't know. I think it would depend on the person. In general, I wouldn't assume that they have egocentric motives for making such statements (e.g., "oh, I'm going to say this so I look good!").

And furthermore, the way it is phrased and intended, it appears as if they think that God was the catalyst, the cause for their good effect. If not for God's intervention, they would not have succeeded.

So, even if they do think that they contributed, their contribution is necessarily rather meaningless, since if God hadn't put his bit in, then the whole thing would've failed.

This could be true from their point of view, but it might not be. I hesitate to puts words into their mouths, because the god-concept this person is likely operating from is not at all the same as my own.

I think I will say that by and large, theists consider the gods to be an order of magnitude greater than themselves as individuals. The contribution of the gods - assuming the theist believes in an immanent or intervening god-concept - is therefore an order of magnitude greater than the efforts of one tiny speck of sand on a beach (aka, a human being). Without the gods working in our favor, your efforts have an extremely low probability of panning out. I wouldn't use the word "meaningless" in there however, because I think that wrongly suggests that the person's behavior has no value unless it results in a specific outcome. The journey is still meaningful even if the destination isn't reached. You learn, for one. I suspect that even if this hadn't panned out, this person could have derived meaning from the journey.

I hope this addresses some of the other points you made in your last post as well.

 

[Quintessence]

Uh there's a difference between giving yourself credit / natural influence and "goddidit"...

I'm trying to figure out how this response follows from what I wrote and am just not getting it. I assumed that the person Falvun spoke to has a typical classical monotheistic mindset where this would hold true (as opposed to my own theology, where it would not). I'm not sure where the dispute is here?

 

[nazz]

Well this goes to the question "does God intervene in the world" and if so, how? How exactly would God be responsible for working things out, for him getting the job? I see no evidence of any physical intervention at work. If such things do happen they are very rare. So the only possible intervention would be of a spiritual nature. God influenced his creditors to be amenable to working things out and God influenced his employer to hire him. I think that is possible but in the latter case why him? Because doesn't that mean someone else did not get the job? What if that othr person prayed just as hard if not harder to get the job too?

The only way I could see God being responsible no matter what would be to adopt a totally faalistic view that would even rule out free will entirely.

That said, there is something in all of us that wishes to express gratitude for good fortune. Theists have a convenient recipient for such gratitude.

 

[George-ananda]

Well this goes to the question "does God intervene in the world" and if so, how? How exactly would God be responsible for working things out, for him getting the job? I see no evidence of any physical intervention at work. If such things do happen they are very rare. So the only possible intervention would be of a spiritual nature. God influenced his creditors to be amenable to working things out and God influenced his employer to hire him.

I don’t think GOD intervenes directly in any events. However, I believe there are a myriad of beings above the physical level that can intercede on one’s behalf.

I think that is possible but in the latter case why him? Because doesn't that mean someone else did not get the job? What if that othr person prayed just as hard if not harder to get the job too?

Why sometimes and not always? It appears random to us but there are a multitude of reasons we can’t see from the physical level (the past history of the soul, earnestness of his prayers, karmic conditions, etc.).

 

[Skwim]

What are your thoughts?

When I read such attributions I always think; do you also blame god when bad things befall you? After all, god, in particular the Christian one, is well known for doing a lot of not-so-nice stuff, which include acts of omission and inaction. But if this is what one wants/needs to believe it's fine with me, just don't try to sell me on the idea. I have better things to do.

 

[Enai de a lukal]

He recently got a job.

He credits God for his ability to stay afloat. God miraculously worked things out so he didn't go bankrupt. God found him this job.

The curious part is that oftentimes, there's a ludicrous and apparently arbitrary double standard- when things go well, all credit goes to God; good results are not due to anything we've done... But when things go wrong, as in any of the countless instances of suffering and evil in the world (as in the problem of evil), the blame does not fall on God, but on us. God gets credit for all the good things that happen, and none of the bad things- a pretty nice gig, really...