Criticism of Islam.

[firedragon]

You misunderstand me. I think that Christianity needs to understand that White Supremacists are coopting the religion. The supremacist that went to shoot up the synagogue near me in San Diego county was a well respected member of his evangelical church. There is something wrong that these Chrsitian churches are not dealing with the extremists in their rank, just as it is not right that the Muslim community was silent about Al Qaeda.

You are wrong. The Muslims were "NOT" silent about "Al Qaeda". You are just not aware since you live in a country with 1% Muslims. Muslims didnt know about al Qaeda until the news informed them. Even afghans didn't know about Al Qaeda. Even the Arabs didnt know about the Al Qaeda.

You have studied this from the TV.

 

[stevecanuck]

It has as much to do with islam as a white nationalist shooting at a synagogue has to do with christianity.

Unfortunately, that's just not true. Reading the Qur'an in chronological order is much more instructive about the evolution of Islam than reading it in compilation order. That way you can see how it went from endlessly repeating stories from the OT and contributing almost nothing new to the religion of Abraham to being turned into a warrior religion.

Surah 9 is actually the last surah (except for a three verse wrap up). Much of its context is Mohamed's failed attempt to start a war with the Byzantines at Tabuk. It is a call to arms, pure and simple. And that's where Islam stands to this day.

 

[firedragon]

Reading the Qur'an in chronological order

Where do you get the chronological order from? I know you have no education in the Quran, but at least be decent answer this question. Its pretty simple.

 

[firedragon]

Surah 9 is actually the last surah (except for a three verse wrap up).

What kind of joke is that? Is this your 20 year study? Did you just say chapter 9 is the last Sarah? In which world is that? Did you learn this from Jihadwatch?

Why dont you simply put a bit of effort in actually putting time into study. You keep talking about 20 years of Quranic study but someone who studied it for just 20 hours would know better than you.

Bogus information.

 

[stevecanuck]

Where do you get the chronological order from? ...., but at least be decent answer this question. Its pretty simple.

Fair enough. I checked several web sites and there was very little difference between them. This is the one I land on: Revelation Order - Tanzil Documents

The change in style, manner of presentation, and especially subject matter makes it clear whether a surah (or even individual verse) came from Mecca or Medina. For example, fighting isn't even mentioned in Mecca, but thanks to the compilation order, it looks as though it was part of Islam from the beginning.

I know you have no education in the Quran

If you had real arguments you wouldn't have to rely on a steady stream of ad homs.

 

[stevecanuck]

What kind of joke is that? Is this your 20 year study? Did you just say chapter 9 is the last Sarah? In which world is that? Did you learn this from Jihadwatch?

Ad hom plus strawman. Your usual.

Why don't you simply put a bit of effort in actually putting time into study. You keep talking about 20 years of Quranic study but someone who studied it for just 20 hours would know better than you.

Bogus information.

Yup, ad hom in lieu of rebuttal. You're as boring as you are predictable.

 

[firedragon]

Fair enough. I checked several web sites and there was very little difference between them. This is the one I land on: Revelation Order - Tanzil Documents

The change in style, manner of presentation, and especially subject matter makes it clear whether a surah (or even individual verse) came from Mecca or Medina. For example, fighting isn't even mentioned in Mecca, but thanks to the compilation order, it looks as though it was part of Islam from the beginning.

For the first time I am honestly seeing a decent post.

For your information, there is no change in style. Any palaeographer or philologist will confirm it. No change in style.

the main question is this. You are giving a website for Tanzil. Its based on ahadith. But you dont believe in hadith. You have stated many times that ahadith are 200 plus years later and are unreliable etc etc etc.

Why do you in this particular case propagated by Robert Spencer who is a Christian Apologist, and others like Daniel pipes, Ayan Hirsi Ali, etc etc, based on Hadith believe it blindly?

This is called "Hypocrisy". You discredit ahadith when you want to, but embrace it blindly when you wish to.

If you had real arguments you wouldn't have to rely on a steady stream of ad homs.

Well. You have no education in the Quran. You only pretend so if you dont pretend, it won't come up.

Ad hom plus strawman. Your usual.



Yup, ad hom in lieu of rebuttal. You're as boring as you are predictable.

Haha. This is all ad hominem. Not a response.

You made up a bogus story that chapter 9 is the last chapter with three verses to wrap up. I mean its just made up. So you respond with some insults and you tell others about ad hominem.

Show some integrity.

Of course like you never respond to any objective question you will not respond to this post either.

 

[stevecanuck]

For the first time I am honestly seeing a decent post.

For your information, there is no change in style. Any palaeographer or philologist will confirm it. No change in style.

the main question is this. You are giving a website for Tanzil. Its based on ahadith. But you dont believe in hadith. You have stated many times that ahadith are 200 plus years later and are unreliable etc etc etc.

You have me mixed up with someone else.

Why do you in this particular case propagated by Robert Spencer who is a Christian Apologist, and others like Daniel pipes, Ayan Hirsi Ali, etc etc, based on Hadith believe it blindly?

This is called "Hypocrisy". You discredit ahadith when you want to, but embrace it blindly when you wish to.

And back to a strawman.

Well. You have no education in the Quran. You only pretend so if you dont pretend, it won't come up.

Ad hom.

Haha. This is all ad hominem. Not a response.

You made up a bogus story that chapter 9 is the last chapter with three verses to wrap up. I mean its just made up. So you respond with some insults and you tell others about ad hominem.

Show some integrity.

Of course like you never respond to any objective question you will not respond to this post either.

I showed you my source. All you've done is gratuitously deny it. No alternative - just denial.

I'm not sure how much more I'll respond to your hysterics. I'll probably just leave you to rant to yourself shortly.

 

[firedragon]

You have me mixed up with someone else.



And back to a strawman.




Ad hom.





I showed you my source. All you've done is gratuitously deny it. No alternative - just denial.

I'm not sure how much more I'll respond to your hysterics. I'll probably just leave you to rant to yourself shortly.

1. You claim ahadith are false because they are 200 plus years after Muhammed
2. You base your whole mind and soul on Meccan and Medinan surahs, repeating the same thing again and again, and where do you get that from?? "AHADITH"

Thats the definition of hypocrisy.

You cant answer mate. So go ahead and make some comment and escape.

 

[stevecanuck]

1. You claim ahadith are false because they are 200 plus years after Muhammed

Nope. Not me. That's my final answer on this.

2. You base your whole mind and soul on Meccan and Medinan surahs, repeating the same thing again and again, and where do you get that from?? "AHADITH"

Thats the definition of hypocrisy.

You cant answer mate. So go ahead and make some comment and escape.

Nope. I read the words in the qur'an. They mean what they mean. No hadiths were necessary in the creation of that little book of hate.

 

[firedragon]

Nope. Not me. That's my final answer on this.

Oh Yes you did.

Nope. I read the words in the qur'an. They mean what they mean. No hadiths were necessary in the creation of that little book of hate.

Nah. See, you of course ignored that you are in love with Meccan and Medinan chapters. You even made up something saying chapter nine is the last. It was just bogus. So that's why you are not addressing that.

So did you get these Meccan verses and Medinan chapters just by reading the Quran for 20 years?

False.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Unfortunately, that's just not true.

It seems that most people have misunderstood what I was trying to say. I wasn't saying that Muslims didn't need to rise up and weed this out of their religion. I was saying that Christians need to do the same. We need to hear sermons in Chrisitan churches condemning racism, and we need to hear sermons in mosques condemning militant islam.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

You are wrong. The Muslims were "NOT" silent about "Al Qaeda". You are just not aware since you live in a country with 1% Muslims. Muslims didnt know about al Qaeda until the news informed them. Even afghans didn't know about Al Qaeda. Even the Arabs didnt know about the Al Qaeda.

You have studied this from the TV.

REally? You hear a lot of sermons in mosques against militant islam?

 

[firedragon]

REally? You hear a lot of sermons in mosques against militant islam?

What do you mean "Militant Islam"? I have never in my life heard of a Militant Islam on any Muslims mouth, be it an Imam, Maulawi, Hasrath, nor person who walks in the street. Never.

So please explain what you mean by "Militant Islam".

 

[England my lionheart]

Wrong understanding. I mean so far apart, its probably an understanding of an absolute alien to theology or maybe an understanding of a very layman type Muslim who shouts on the internet.

I don’t pretend to know arabic but it’s obvious what I mean,this quote is from a very highly regarded person from possibly the largest Islamic organisation in the world the Muslim brotherhood.

Indeed, people are not Muslims, as they proclaim to be, as long as they live the life of Jahiliyyah.

All the existing so-called Muslim societies in the world today are jahili." Their way of life is not based upon "submission to God alone." "[T]hey make whatever laws they please and then say: 'This is the Shari'a of God'." Islam has no option. It must look at all really existing supposedly Muslim societies as "unIslamic and illegal" - as sunk in jahiliyya. No society in his view can be "half-Islam and half-jahiliyya.

Sayyid qutb

 

[firedragon]

I don’t pretend to know arabic but it’s obvious what I mean,this quote is from a very highly regarded person from possibly the largest Islamic organisation in the world the Muslim brotherhood.

When did the Muslim Brotherhood become some authority in Islam? The Muslim brotherhood was introduced to most of the Muslims around the world via western media in my opinion. Some number of years ago if you travel to Muslim majority countries, these Muslims didnt know anything about some Muslim brotherhood.

Thats a strawman.

 

[England my lionheart]

When did the Muslim Brotherhood become some authority in Islam? The Muslim brotherhood was introduced to most of the Muslims around the world via western media in my opinion. Some number of years ago if you travel to Muslim majority countries, these Muslims didnt know anything about some Muslim brotherhood.

Thats a strawman.

Oh I think they know quite well,I mean the PLO and Hamas are quite famous aren’t they and who hasn’t heard of osama bin laden who was a member.

That’s not the point though,the point is which Islam are we talking about,I’m pretty sure the Islam isis or the Taliban follow is totally different from that followed by most Muslims in the west,I very much doubt that either would regard the other as true followers of Islam either.

 

[firedragon]

Oh I think they know quite well

See. You thinking is not reality.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Comparing the bible to the qur'an is a whole 'nother topic that's best suited for its own thread. I've been reading the qur'an for 20 years, and being a Westerner in his 70's, I certainly have a working knowledge of Christianity and the bible. To make a VERY long story short, the overt militarism in the qur'an is much, much worse when taken as a whole than anything the bible has to offer. The message of the OT compared to the Medina verses is 180 degrees off.

Sure.

Nevertheless, there are millions upon millions of examples of muslims who already act like I described: focusing on the nice bits and completely ignoring all the horrible bits, or coming up with excuses as to why "it doesn't count" any more.

The way I see it, the problem in the middle east is that they actively uphold the status quo because the leadership enforces fundamentalism through theocratic rule.

It will stay that way until there is a true "enlightment" in that region, or something similar to it, which is triggered by the people themselves.

The whole idea of countries like the US moving in with F16s and tanks saying "we bring you democracy and freedom" is never going to work. In fact, it only makes it worse.

Freedom is not something that can be "given" to you. It's something you need to grab and fight for yourself. Only then will it last.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Then why do we see the rapid rise of these beliefs following the dismantling of sovereign statehood in the Middle East and the implementation and dissolution of British and French administration?

And why do prior state building efforts in the Middle East have a diversity of belief in regards to scriptural interpretation?

Your worldview and assertions cannot answer either of those questions. Which, if your assertion when challenged by historical fact is found lacking then I have to assume you're arguing from a position of emotional bias.

Would recommend looking up how the British treated the region; it was not at all pretty.

This is not relevant to the point I made.
Which is: the beliefs are the beliefs. The beliefs weren't invented or brought over by colonists. They were already there.