Criticism of Islam.

[firedragon]

I previously said, "To condemn militancy in Islam is to directly negate the word of Allah.

Bogus. Lets see some cherry picking now.

Notice that 'qatl' is the root word

Bogus. Its "Qathala". Not Qatl.

They are referring to the word 'jihad', which means 'struggle'. It can be used to mean either spiritual OR physical struggle.

The problem with pretending to be an expert is this.

What do you think the Jihad is when parents are doing something against a child? Can you explain? Is it "spiritual struggle or physical struggle"? I mean are the parents trying to physically fight the child or spiritually struggle in some way against the child?

 

[firedragon]

Because the Qur'an explicitly says that Muslims have to fight to get into heaven - 9:111

Bogus. It doesnt say "Muslims have to fight to get into heaven". See, that's an outright creation of yours.

It says "those who fight in the way of God go to heaven". Doesnt say "All muslims have to fight to get to heaven". Dont make things up. Its just dishonesty. Its like saying "those who buy train tickets to firenze will go to firenze. Does not mean "You must buy train tickets to go to firenze". You can drive.

So dont make things up. Its shameful.

What is fighting in the way of God? Fight for the oppressed. DO not be the aggressor. Fight the aggressor. Fight to save the oppressed people and children who ask for your help. But when they cease fighting safeguard them. Fighting is prescribed only when you are being oppressed. When the oppression stops, the fighting must stop.

20 years of studying the Qur'an and you dont know these basic things. And you make things up as well.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Cheers.

You know, you COULD have used this discussion to slam militant Islam and insist that it is a wicked ideology that is trying to coopt your religion. But instead you chose to pick at my terminology. It says something about you.

 

[England my lionheart]

About the Muslim brotherhood in Egypt and claiming that is definition of Islam globallY?

Is that what you call history? Please elaborate.

ok I will,mr khan at the local corner shop in Wimbledon likes to watch “friends” a well known tv show,if Hamas visited his house would they say “this episode is soooo good” or kneecap him,hamas are very much the mbs baby,mescal yassin and from its roots hassan al bana and qutb,so influential for the world of Islam but mr khan can watch “friends” here with impunity.

 

[firedragon]

ok I will,mr khan at the local corner shop in Wimbledon likes to watch “friends” a well known tv show,if Hamas visited his house would they say “this episode is soooo good” or kneecap him,hamas are very much the mbs baby,mescal yassin and from its roots hassan al bana and qutb,so influential for the world of Islam but mr khan can watch “friends” here with impunity.

So how is Hamas relevant now? First you thought the Muslim Brotherhood is some kind of Godly authority in Islam. Now Hamas. Is this all you learned from your websites and the TV?

Why dont you actually study something relevant to what you are trying to bring up here?

 

[stevecanuck]

I'm not even going to read your list.

Do you even realize that you've admitted that you choose to WILLFULLY live in ignorance?

 

[TheBrokenSoul]

This thread is opened for the expose of Islam and Muslims. One could discuss people, the theology, men, women, hate, love, everything and anything they want. Its particularly opened because it is an avenue to discuss openly and avoid discussion of this topic in every single thread.

There are not many Muslims in this forum, but maybe one or two will respond.

Thanks and Peace.

The holy Quran speak of tells truths like me , why can't Islam or any other religion speak the truths ?

 

[stevecanuck]

Bogus. It doesnt say "Muslims have to fight to get into heaven". See, that's an outright creation of yours.

It says "those who fight in the way of God go to heaven". Doesnt say "All muslims have to fight to get to heaven". Dont make things up. Its just dishonesty.

Of course it does. It's a very clearly stated bargain. I defy anyone else to read 9:111 and not come away with the understanding I have of it.

 

[stevecanuck]

What is fighting in the way of God? Fight for the oppressed. DO not be the aggressor. Fight the aggressor. Fight to save the oppressed people and children who ask for your help. But when they cease fighting safeguard them. Fighting is prescribed only when you are being oppressed. When the oppression stops, the fighting must stop.

"Fighting aggressors" doesn't earn you a vast empire. BEING the aggressor does.

And that would explain the Islamic empire created in the first centuries of Islam. Your denials are pathetic.

 

[England my lionheart]

So how is Hamas relevant now? First you thought the Muslim Brotherhood is some kind of Godly authority in Islam. Now Hamas. Is this all you learned from your websites and the TV?

Why dont you actually study something relevant to what you are trying to bring up here?

As been noted by others there isn’t actually any debate with you so why don’t you do some study yourself,really the subject matter is easy to find as it’s part of history and btw totally relevant unless you live in a box.

 

[Brinne]

The fact that the Islamic army conquered its way across north Africa and ended up fighting in France makes that a false statement.

What is your litmus for barbarism then? Because every state on the face of the Earth has been a perpetrator of imperialism.

But that doesn’t mean their domestic accomplishments (scientific, cultural, ect) are discarded wholesale because of that. Unless you’re taking the anti-statist position.

 

[stevecanuck]

What is your litmus for barbarism then? Because every state on the face of the Earth has been a perpetrator of imperialism.

Who said otherwise? I'm rebutting your peace and unicorn version of Islam. That's all.

But that doesn’t mean their domestic accomplishments (scientific, cultural, ect) are discarded wholesale because of that. Unless you’re taking the anti-statist position.

All of which has nothing to do with Islam itself. All that means is that some Muslims were brilliant scholars. There is absolutely nothing in the Qur'an that encourages the arts, sciences, literature, or anything else that could be called cultural.

 

[firedragon]

The holy Quran speak of tells truths like me , why can't Islam or any other religion speak the truths ?

Ah. This you are doing for fun. Let me show you how others can copy you and have fun.

"Why cant you speak the truth"?

Do you think that is a good discussion?

I think that was useless. So thanks for the engagement. Ciao.

 

[firedragon]

"Fighting aggressors" doesn't earn you a vast empire. BEING the aggressor does.

And that would explain the Islamic empire created in the first centuries of Islam. Your denials are pathetic.

Yeah. But still, you are intentionally conflating some empire and the Quran because you intend to.

You made things up. I mean something completely bogus. You know it.

 

[firedragon]

As been noted by others there isn’t actually any debate with you so why don’t you do some study yourself,really the subject matter is easy to find as it’s part of history and btw totally relevant unless you live in a box.

Thanks for the advice.

But can you show data?

Ill tell you what. I will play your game but with better information and research. Fine?

7% of all wars in history were attributed to religious motivation. The rest are not religious.

So taking your type of false argumentation, I can say that 93% of the wars are non-religious, which means you are part of it. Thus, if you are religious there will be 93% less violence in this world.

Source of Data - Encyclopaedia of wars by Charles and Alan.

GOod?

 

[firedragon]

Do you even realize that you've admitted that you choose to WILLFULLY live in ignorance?

See, in your list you maliciously left out one verse in the middle. You do this all the time. Let me cut and paste the few verses just to show you "MISSED ONE".

- 2:190 "Fight in the cause of Allah".
- 2:191 "And slay them ... slay them".
- 2:193 "Fight with them".

Where is 192? I know since you have some agenda in your mind in an Internet forum which gives you no benefit but some personal gratification.

Just cause to kill is aggression, but you are not allowed to be the aggressor.

• 2:190 And fight in the cause of God against those who fight you, but do not transgress, God does not like the aggressors.
• 2:191 And kill them wherever you overcome them, and expel them from where they expelled you, and know that persecution is worse than being killed. And do not fight them at the Sacred Temple unless they fight you in it; if they fight you then kill
• them, thus is the recompense of the disbelievers.
• 2:192 And if they cease, then God is Forgiving, Merciful.
• 2:193 And fight them so there is no more persecution, and so that the system is God’s. If they cease, then there will be no aggression except against the wicked.

See the highlighted verse? Why did you miss it? Cut and paste artist.

 

[England my lionheart]

Thanks for the advice.

But can you show data?

Ill tell you what. I will play your game but with better information and research. Fine?

7% of all wars in history were attributed to religious motivation. The rest are not religious.

So taking your type of false argumentation, I can say that 93% of the wars are non-religious, which means you are part of it. Thus, if you are religious there will be 93% less violence in this world.

Source of Data - Encyclopaedia of wars by Charles and Alan.

GOod?

Not really and has nothing to do with what I posted.

 

[firedragon]

Not really and has nothing to do with what I posted.

So evidence or data for your own posts Doreent have anything to do with your own posts? Nice.

 

[Brinne]

Who said otherwise? I'm rebutting your peace and unicorn version of Islam. That's all.


All of which has nothing to do with Islam itself. All that means is that some Muslims were brilliant scholars. There is absolutely nothing in the Qur'an that encourages the arts, sciences, literature, or anything else that could be called cultural.

My view isn’t “peace and unicorns at all.” It’s rooted in historical materialism and criticism of colonialism - basically using historical fact and observation of changes in cultural patterns to justify the argument. Whereas yours is based in clipping scripture; which has numerous verses that support the opposite just as well.

I would highly disagree with that there is nothing to Islam to encourage the arts and sciences. It is the scholarly tradition and jurisprudence of Islam which encouraged an analytical and scientific tradition. Scholasticism is tied to religion regardless of your opinion of religion, in that interpretation, justification, argumentation, and logic are all cornerstones of theology. This is the same in the Christian world as well as in the Buddhist traditions in E Asia. This is simply historical fact at this point.*

*Before this is misrepresented: this is not a statement that all scholastic traditions in all circumstances are born out of theology and scriptural analysis

 

[firedragon]

All of which has nothing to do with Islam itself. All that means is that some Muslims were brilliant scholars. There is absolutely nothing in the Qur'an that encourages the arts, sciences, literature, or anything else that could be called cultural.

You have never ever in your life read the Quran.