Criticism of Islam.

[stevecanuck]

YOU REMEMBER. VERSE 192 YOU INTENTIONALLY LEFT OUT, AND QUOTED THE ONE BEFORE, AND THE ONE AFTER?

Asked and answered. Post 262.

 

[Link]

Any god that was trying to communicate with us simply would not have allowed that to happen. The Qur'an is the product of whatever Mohamed needed it to say on any given day.

He didn't allow it to happen. He made a clear book that contextualizes, and explains it's own signs with respect to each other, and warned about following what is unclear from it, as unclarity is from Iblis and his sorcery, and advised to seek knowledge as knowledge would make the book a clear book of insights and emphasized to seek knowledge pertaining to Quran from the family of the reminder.

Scripture + sent humans from God has always been his rope, from time of Adam till Nuh and after, and is the creed of Abraham, and it never has been one without the other.

It's not God's fault people deny the most repeated theme in Quran and follow leaders not attributed purity by God but by themselves and people which Quran forbid.

The first thing to search out if we have any brains (which Muslims largely don't) is to see what Quran and Ahlulbayt (a) say about how to approach Quran and hadiths.

First collection of hadiths and Quranic insights should be this question.

And the umma utterly fails, makes their own system, and goes by it.

This is not God's fault.

 

[stevecanuck]

He didn't allow it to happen. He made a clear book that contextualizes, and explains it's own signs with respect to each other, and warned about following what is unclear from it, as unclarity is from Iblis and his sorcery, and advised to seek knowledge as knowledge would make the book a clear book of insights and emphasized to seek knowledge pertaining to Quran from the family of the reminder.

Scripture + sent humans from God has always been his rope, from time of Adam till Nuh and after, and is the creed of Abraham, and it never has been one without the other.

It's not God's fault people deny the most repeated theme in Quran and follow leaders not attributed purity by God but by themselves and people which Quran forbid.

The first thing to search out if we have any brains (which Muslims largely don't) is to see what Quran and Ahlulbayt (a) say about how to approach Quran and hadiths.

First collection of hadiths and Quranic insights should be this question.

And the umma utterly fails, makes their own system, and goes by it.

This is not God's fault.

Yes it is God's fault. Any critter who's omnipotent enough to create an entire universe should be able to communicate with us in a more effective manner. All of the opposing sects in Islam just serve to prove what a failure your god is.

 

[Link]

Yes it is God's fault. Any critter who's omnipotent enough to create an entire universe should be able to communicate with us in a more effective manner. All of the opposing sects in Islam just serve to prove what a failure your god is.

That's one way to phrase it, another way to phrase it, is if God goes out of his way and cannot guide a people after they witnessed the Messenger to be true, then it's really pathetic lot humanity have chosen to be.

You can either be part of the solution for this or part of the problem.

 

[firedragon]

Asked and answered. Post 262.

Still. Your cut and paste intentionally omitted a verse in the middle. read the Quran.

4:75 And why do you not fight in the cause of God, when the weak among the men and women and children say: “Our Lord, bring us out of this town whose people are wicked, and grant us from Yourself a Supporter, and grant us from Yourself a Victor!”

 

[stevecanuck]

That's one way to phrase it, another way to phrase it, is if God goes out of his way and cannot guide a people after they witnessed the Messenger to be true, then it's really pathetic lot humanity have chosen to be.

You can either be part of the solution for this or part of the problem.

There was nothing to witness. The only reason there are Muslims is that people simply chose to believe Mohamed minus any proof whatsoever.

 

[stevecanuck]

Still. Your cut and paste intentionally omitted a verse in the middle. read the Quran.

And that's the accusation I answered. Simply repeating the accusation and ignoring the answer is yet another way you exhibit your disingenuousness.

4:75 And why do you not fight in the cause of God, when the weak among the men and women and children say: “Our Lord, bring us out of this town whose people are wicked, and grant us from Yourself a Supporter, and grant us from Yourself a Victor!”

Right. Thanks for providing another example of Mohamed saying what he needed people to believe.

 

[firedragon]

There was nothing to witness. The only reason there are Muslims is that people simply chose to believe Mohamed minus any proof whatsoever.

Have you studied the Madhie and the Mudharie?

 

[firedragon]

And that's the accusation I answered. Simply repeating the accusation and ignoring the answer is yet another way you exhibit your disingenuousness.

You still omitted a verse in the middle. 1st verse, Oops second verse missing, third verse.

Dropped it.

Right. Thanks for providing another example of Mohamed saying what he needed people to believe.

17:33 And do not kill, for God has made this forbidden, except in the course of justice. And whoever is killed innocently, then We have given his heir authority, so let him not transgress in the taking of a life, for He will be given victory.

 

[stevecanuck]

Btw, 4:75 expects us to believe that the same people who ignored Mohamed for 12 years are now begging him to come back and save them. Yeah, right.

 

[stevecanuck]

Have you studied the Madhie and the Mudharie?

Nope. Please enlighten me.

 

[ecco]

Quote scripture.

Another meaningless one-liner.

I have already shown that scripture is not the only driving force in religions. If it were then you wouldn't need scholars to interpret scripture.

Your repetition of "scriptures" just shows how weak your argument really is.

 

[ecco]

No. I say that it is not a part of the theology if its not in scripture.

Then why is it necessary for men to interpret the meaning of the scripture? Do all men interpret scripture in exactly the same way. The answer to that rhetorical question can be found in many different sects there are. This goes far beyond just the big ones like Sunni and Shia. Within them, there are sects and cults. Members of all these sects and cults preach Islamic "theology" based on their mortal interpretations.

Please provide historical evidence to that. Thanks.

Are you denying that Mohammed wrote down what Allah allegedly dictated?
Do you really believe there was a Moses?

How much more historical evidence do you need?

 

[ecco]

If there is a policy among atheists to kill religious people for believing in a god, then I haven't heard of it.
If there is a policy among atheists to kill ex-atheists when they turn to religion, then I haven't heard of it.
If there is a policy among atheists to kill people whose morals are different, then I haven't heard of it.
I could go on, but you should get the picture.

If you research it, you will hear about things you see. But you have to make an effort and be a bit truthful. Do you understand?

If I research what? That there is an Islamic policy to kill people who leave the religion?

Apostasy in Islam - Wikipedia

While classical Islamic jurisprudence calls for the death penalty of those who refuse to repent of apostasy from Islam,[11] the definition of this act and whether and how it should be punished, are disputed among Islamic scholars[​

1. Kill apostates.
2. Your Koranic laws are open to interpretation - something you have been implicitly denying.

Anyway, aren't atheists like a no belief? So, do you expect them to have one single group like you say above? "Among atheists". as in a very small new religious group or a global level cult or something?

Any bunch of people can be grouped by having something in common. For atheists the "in common" is knowledge about the absence of gods. This group of people does not espouse killing members of the group who decide to begin to believe in gods again. I have never heard of any atheist saying atheists who return to godly beliefs should be killed. Obviously, members of the Muslim faith have made comments and rulings to that effect.

Is that clear enough?

 

[ecco]

There was nothing to witness. The only reason there are Muslims is that people simply chose to believe Mohamed minus any proof whatsoever.

With a little help from a "Convert or Die" policy.

 

[firedragon]

Nope. Please enlighten me.

If you have not studied any of that on what grounds do you speak of the Qur'an and who wrote it? 20 years of Quranic studies as you claim and you speak of its veracity with knowing nothing. Why not just stick to what you know?

 

[firedragon]

Another meaningless one-liner.

I have already shown that scripture is not the only driving force in religions. If it were then you wouldn't need scholars to interpret scripture.

Your repetition of "scriptures" just shows how weak your argument really is.

If I research what? That there is an Islamic policy to kill people who leave the religion?

Apostasy in Islam - Wikipedia

While classical Islamic jurisprudence calls for the death penalty of those who refuse to repent of apostasy from Islam,[11] the definition of this act and whether and how it should be punished, are disputed among Islamic scholars[​

1. Kill apostates.
2. Your Koranic laws are open to interpretation - something you have been implicitly denying.

Any bunch of people can be grouped by having something in common. For atheists the "in common" is knowledge about the absence of gods. This group of people does not espouse killing members of the group who decide to begin to believe in gods again. I have never heard of any atheist saying atheists who return to godly beliefs should be killed. Obviously, members of the Muslim faith have made comments and rulings to that effect.

Is that clear enough?

Then why is it necessary for men to interpret the meaning of the scripture? Do all men interpret scripture in exactly the same way. The answer to that rhetorical question can be found in many different sects there are. This goes far beyond just the big ones like Sunni and Shia. Within them, there are sects and cults. Members of all these sects and cults preach Islamic "theology" based on their mortal interpretations.



Are you denying that Mohammed wrote down what Allah allegedly dictated?
Do you really believe there was a Moses?

How much more historical evidence do you need?

Thanks for all of that. But quote scripture.

 

[stevecanuck]

If you have not studied any of that on what grounds do you speak of the Qur'an and who wrote it? 20 years of Quranic studies as you claim and you speak of its veracity with knowing nothing. Why not just stick to what you know?

You should try having a real conversation one time. You might like it. Good bye until you make a post that looks like you're inviting an actual exchange.

 

[firedragon]

You should try having a real conversation one time. You might like it. Good bye until you make a post that looks like you're inviting an actual exchange.

See, when you make statements like that, about the Qur'an, its authorship, etc etc, you need to know at least the basics. Thats bottomline.

Thats why you should stick to what you know. Speak about things you find on the internet, those cut and pastes etc. Stick to what you know.

 

[Link]

There was nothing to witness. The only reason there are Muslims is that people simply chose to believe Mohamed minus any proof whatsoever.

I understand this is your perspective. But if you are going to find fault with Islam, you have to suspend disbelief when arguing points. Quran shows God goes out of his way that after the founder people don't go astray, yet they choose to ignore the most central message which is God's Mastership through his revelation and chosen ones and how they teach they are to be approached with respect to proofs and insights.

It's not God's fault from this paradigm.

That and he taught to seek refuge in the lanterns in the sky for light, luminosity, and weapons to be used against Iblis forces and the dark magic.