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Critique of Doherty

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Paul and the "Words of the Lord"

I’ll start with the latter, because although the issue of whether or not Paul refers to what he believed to be teachings of an earthly Jesus (and why he did not do so more often) is more complex than the issue of James relation to Jesus, the way Doherty treats the issue is, I believe, instructive. Doherty mentions several explanations typically offered by various authors who have written on Paul’s discussion (or lack thereof) of Jesus’ teachings and actions, and so I need not repeat them here. Rather, I will focus on pieces of Doherty’s argument I think are problematic.

Paul's visit(s) to Jerusalem and what likely took place

The first is his assertion in The Jesus Puzzle that there was not “much opportunity in evidence for him [Paul] to have acquired details about Jesus’ life”. Doherty then references Paul’s visit to Jerusalem. However, there are problems with Doherty’s description here. First, he states that “Paul went to Jerusalem exactly once”. However, it is unclear what his basis is for this claim. In the very letter Doherty references (Galatians), Paul mentions (Gal. 2.1) a second trip. Nor is it clear that the references to a trip to Jerusalem in (for example) Romans corresponds with either of the two trips mentioned in Galatians. Then there is Doherty’s description of Paul’s 15 day stay with Peter. He states that “[a]ll he did at that time, so he says (1:18) was ‘get to know Peter’ and see James.” This is at the very least somewhat misleading. First, there is the length of the stay: 15 days. As C. H. Dodd put it so long ago, we can safely assume that “they did not spend all the time talking about the weather.” The only clue (other than the length of the visit) for what took place is the infinitive Paul uses to describe his action during the visit: historesai. This word, whence comes our English “history”, was forever changed by the work of Herodotus, who began his work with a nominalized version historia ,meaning (at that time) “inquiry” or “investigation.” However, Herodotus’ work began a new genre, that of historiography, and in Greek the verb historiagraphein means “to write history”. There are several Greek words Paul could have used here, which are less formal and far more common (e.g., gignoskein), but he used one found nowhere else in the N.T. and rarely in Greek literature at all. It is commonly found within the works of historians, from Herodotus to Diogenes Laertius (Plutarch uses it frequently), but is almost completely absent from drama or non-technical texts. In other words, for Paul to use this word, there is probably something special about his visit, at least more than a simple “get to know” Peter. A better translation would probably be “inquire”, and indeed most analyses of the word as used in Galatians (for references, see the BDAG) argue that the word means something like “get information from” rather than “get to know.” And that would better explain the length of the stay.

Doherty's failure to adequately represent research on oral tradition

Also problematic is Doherty’s explanation for the “Words of the Lord” (the title of the relevant section in his book) which Paul references. He writes (p. 29) “[m]any scholars identify these passages as reflecting a phenomenon common to the early Christian preaching movement…Paul is passing on to his readers directives and promises which he has received through inspiration.” Doherty includes an endnote here, in which he references Mack, Kelber, and Bultmann. He quotes Kelber here. However, what he does not do is inform the reader as to what Kelber actually meant or the context of Doherty’s quotation of him. But he does not even indicate that he has not quoted Kelber’s entire sentence, but started midway into one. Kelber (who relies a great deal on the Homeric model of oral transmission pioneered by Parry and Lord) in fact states on the same page Doherty quotes from, “Whether a saying is from the earthly Jesus, prophetically transmitted as a word of the risen Lord, or Paul’s own word spoken or written in apostolic-prophetic self-consciousness, it is always legitimized by the authority of the Lord.” Kelber’s argument does not really support Doherty’s point, in that while Kelber argues that we cannot know whether or when Paul is actually reporting a teaching of Jesus or something received through “inspiration”, he certainly does not argue that this IS what Paul is doing-period. Also interesting, given that Doherty spends more time on Bultmann than on Mack or Kelber (and does so again in his “The Pauline Epistles- Part Two” response to Ehrman), is that having read Kelber, he nonetheless refers to Bultmann’s “classic statement” concerning the process he describes. What he does not do is note that even Kelber explicitly rejects Bultmann’s arguments, stating (p. 8), “Today it is no exaggeration to claim that a whole spectrum of major assumptions underlying Bultmann’s Synoptic Tradition must be considered suspect: Easter faith as watershed and point of departure for the tradition, the notion of the original form and its compulsory development into progressively more complex and hybrid formations, collective consciousness as the shaping force both of oral materials and gospel textuality, the concept of “setting in life” as the sociological determinant of oral forms, the heuristic value of the categories of Palestinian versus Hellenistic, and the thesis of an intrinsic gravitational or teleological pull toward gospel composition.” In fact, both within and outside of NT/Biblical studies, research on orality and oral transmission has flourished. The model Bultmann used, which was the then-current theory of orality within German folklore studies, is no longer even applicable to that field, let alone NT studies. And the work of numerous anthropologists, sociologists, and other specialists (Ruth Finnegan, Walter Ong, E. A. Mackay, Craig Cooper, Jan Vansina, William Schneider, etc.) has vastly increased our knowledge of the range, scope, and “genres” of oral traditions/transmissions. In fact, it was not long after Bultmann’s work that an entirely different model of oral tradition, one far more likely a priori to be applicable, was constructed: Birger Gerhadsson’s model based on orality within rabbinic circles. Although Gerhadsson’s work, initially subject to much criticism, has become far more widely accepted (or at least much of it), his model is hardly without critics (including Kelber). However, Doherty barely touches on any scholarship concerning oral transmission, content to cite the three he does, despite the fact that they disagree both with him and with each other.

The questionable claim of a "heavenly source"

Even more curious is his own analysis of Paul’s language. He claims that it “points to a heavenly source” and to support this claim cites 1 Cor. 7:25. He tells us Paul’s words indicate “a general category of things [he] is accustomed to possessing for himself, not as part of a wider community knowledge or inheritance from tradition.” How, I wonder, does Paul’s statement that a particular direction comes from him, not the Lord, indicate some “heavenly source” unless one assumes already that there was no earthly Jesus? There is nothing within Paul’s language to indicate a heavenly source, and in fact if one looks at 1 Cor. 7 in full such an interpretation is problematic. Earlier, in 1 Cor 7:10, Paul explicitly seperates his instruction from that of the Lord: tois de gegamekkosin paragello, ouk ego alla ho kurios…/”to the unmarried I command, or rather not I, but the Lord…” Paul’s assertion that this prohibition of divorce is from Jesus is also echoed in Q and Mark. Almost immediately following this, however, Paul states (1 Cor. 7:12), tois de loipois lego ego ouch ho kurios…/”to the rest I say, not the Lord,…” He goes out of his way to indicate that the first part is a teaching from Jesus Christ, as he does in the line quoted by Doherty (where he states he has no command from the Lord). On the assumption that there was no earthly Jesus, these lines by necessity are from some “divine revelation”. Of course, if Paul received “divine revelations” one wonders why he would ever need to indicate that an instruction or command was his own, not the Lord’s. After all, if he receives divine instructions, and it is understood by his audience that he does, why would they give credence to his own thoughts on some matter when he makes it clear he didn’t receive any divine instruction? Why didn’t he? It’s rather odd that Paul has a divine decree concerning divorce, one that is rather general, but when it comes to how followers of Christ should deal with unbelieving spouses, divine inspiration dries up. This makes perfect sense if Paul is actually passing on the same teaching recorded in the gospels and coming from an earthly Jesus, who did not have to deal with issues which occurred in the early church, but is harder to explain if all teachings of Jesus are divine inspirations.
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
James, Jesus, and Josephus

But why should we think that Jesus had an earthly presence, or that Paul thought of him as having lived and preached on Earth? Passing over (for the sake of brevity) both the statements Paul makes about “flesh” and “descended from David” as well as the references Doherty and others use to argue that Paul did not conceive of Jesus as ever living on Earth, there is the issue of James, identified at one point by Paul as the brother of Jesus. Within both the gospels and Josephus James is also identified as Jesus’ brother. It is easiest here to start with Doherty’s treatment of Josephus. First, it is important to note how scholars over the decades (especially Jewish scholars of ancient Judaism) have dealt with the reference to James within Josephus. Theißen and Merz, in their review/textbook on the historical Jesus (Der historische Jesus: Ein Lehrbuch) include an enormous reference list and sum up the conclusion of 100 or so years of work by stating, “Die Authentizität der Stelle kann als gesichert gelten…” (p. 74; “the authenticity of the text can be considered certain) noting a single exception to the numerous commentators and Josephan scholars: Schürer’s work from 1901. So why does Doherty question its authenticity? In his book, he “consider the matter in point form”. The first point has to do with the date of our earliest manuscript. However, there is neither anything remarkable about this (in fact, if we had an earlier manuscript, it would be surprising), nor is this any reason to doubt the authenticity of this line. His second point has to do with what he claims is an extraneous, unnecessary feel to the reference of Jesus. However, this analysis is fundamentally flawed. As Doherty is no doubt aware, first names were common and could not serve by themselves as identifiers. Something else (context, a patronymic, a title, etc.) had to serve if someone in a text like Josephus’ was introduced. Josephus uses a quite common form of identification: kinship. The most common method was by the father, but other methods (including metronymics; see e.g. Depauw’s article from the journal The Language of the Papyri) were also used frequently. So Doherty is not correct in saying (in point 2) that the Greek Iakobos onoma auto or “James by name” would be “a phrase [which] could have stood perfectly well on its own (with a slight change in grammatical form)…”. Josephus elsewhere (BJ 6.92) introduces a certain individual named James, along with others, showing the variability in his identifications:

ὁ τοῦ Μέρτωνος Ἰούδας, καὶ Σωσᾶ υἱὸς Ἰάκωβος τῶν Ἰδουμαίων ἡγεμών, τῶν δὲ ζηλωτῶν ἀδελφοὶ δύο, παῖδες Ἀρί, Σίμων τε καὶ Ἰούδης

The first person, Jude, is identified by his father, but the genitive of kin is placed between the nominative article and the name (Jude) it corresponds to. Next, we find James, only here the fathers name comes first, followed by "son", followed by "James" and finally another (genitive) identifier "leader of the Idumeans". Next, we find Simon and Judas, only here the genitive identifier comes first in the form "of the zealots, followed by "two brothers", followed by "boys of Jarius", way at the end we get (finally) to their actual names. Josephus frequently go beyond what "could stand on its own", and (contrary to Doherty's third point about "suspicious" word order), he does so in some of the most convoluted ways possible.

Quite apart from the fact that Greek word order is very flexible in general, a cursory examination of scholarship shows how variability in word order specific to identification. A paper in Studies in Language (32:5; pp. 894-915) entitled “Rheme before theme in the noun phrase: A case study from Ancient Greek” Carlotta Viti addresses (among other things) this very issue. On page 908 she writes, “In particular, the relation of kinship is the privileged domain of preposed genitives (e.g. Il. 1.9 Lētous kai Dios huios ‘Lato’s and Zeus’ son’), as well of preposed adjectives (e.g. Il. .1 Pelydes Achilles). Kinship relations are a favored strategy of textual cohesion, whereby the author introduces new characters by anchoring them to characters that have been already presented or that belong to the general knowledge of his public.” She delves in some detail into the issue of post- vs. preposed genitives, and the flexibility and use of both. And she is dealing with word order prior to the Greek of Paul, in which methods of address became even more flexible. Eleanor Dickey is perhaps the foremost authority when it comes to Greek forms of address, kinship terms, and similar topics. Her book on the subject, as well as subsequent articles, are among the most cited and authoritative works on this topic. In two such articles (“The Greek system of address of the Roman period and its relationship to Latin” in the journal The Classical Quarterly and “Literal and extended use of kinship terms in documentary papyri” published in the journal Mnemosyne) she notes the shifts in forms of address, use of kinship terms, and similar shifts/changes in post-classical Greek. Here the only salient points are the fact that Doherty’s assertions about word order are misleading at best, but Dickey’s work will become more important when the reference to James in Paul is discussed.

In points 3 through 6 (his final point), Doherty discusses the construction used and the likelihood of interpolation. His first argument concerns the phrase tou legemenou Christou which he claims is a “phrase…in use by Christians.” As evidence, he points to Matt. 1:16 and John 4:25. There are two problems with this claim. The first is that early Christian literature is FILLED with various methods of referring to Jesus, yet Doherty cites only two which match Josephus’ and claims that this is somehow evidence for use of the phrase by Christians. Not only that, but it is enough to suspect a Christian hand at work in Josephus' reference. Yet of the two he cites, only one could be called “Christian”. Matthew ends his genealogy of Jesus with this phrase. However, the use in John is quite different. Jesus is speaking to a Samarian woman. In the line Doherty cites, the author of John writes legei auto he gune, ‘Oida hoti Messias erchetai ho legomenos Christos/”the woman says to him ‘I know that Messiah comes, the one referred to as Christ”. The purpose of the line legomenos Christos here is simply to translate the Hebraic term “anointed” into Greek. In fact, one could translate the line “I know that the Messiah, which means Christ, comes” and while this would be a far less literal translation, it would be a more accurate rendering of the meaning. The only purpose of the phrase Doherty identifies as “Christian” here is to translate the Hebraic term. It is not intended as a designation for Jesus. Also interesting is the fact that Doherty chose not to include two other uses of this method of referring to Jesus which are in the gospels. Matthew twice uses this very construction, in Matt. 27:17 and 27:22. However, in both cases it is Pilate speaking to the crowd about who to execute or release: Barabbas or “the one called Christ”. In other words, the two uses of this construction Doherty does not mention are placed on the lips of not only an unbeliever, but the one who orders Jesus’ execution. No rational analysis of this use in Matthew could conclude that the author’s use is “Christian”. It is explicitly NON-Christian: a way to refer to Jesus by non-believers. That is exactly how Josephus uses it. The reason that the Testimonium Flavianum is so obviously at least corrupted (and perhaps interpolated) is because Josephus states Jesus IS Christ. If not for this and a two other short components of the passage, there would be little reason to suspect a Christian hand at all. If Josephus had really said Jesus was the Messiah, he’d be a Christian, so clearly that passage has been at the very least altered. Yet in the later reference, in which Jesus is used to identify James, we find a different construction. Whereas in the Testimonium Jesus “is Christ” here he is only “known as” or “called” Christ. As Theißen and Merz put it, “Die Rede von Jesus, der Christus genannt wird, spiegelt eher jüdischen als christlichen Sprachgebrauch, da Christos im Christentum bald zum Eigennamen wurde (und in den römischen Quellen als solcher erscheint” (The address of Jesus, called Christ, reflects a Jewish, as opposed to Christian designation, for “Christ” in Christianity soon became a proper name (and shows up in the Roman sources as such).
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The fact that it does show up in Roman sources as such is another problem for Doherty, who asserts that Josephus’ audience could not be expected to know this Jesus, called Christ. First, if the majority of scholars are correct, and the previous section on Jesus is a corrupt version of a passage which did originally discuss Jesus, then that issue would be resolved without reference to Tacitus or other Roman sources. Yet even if it is an interpolation, the Roman sources indicate that by the time of Nero this “Christ” and his followers were known well outside of Jewish and early Christian circles. Doherty’s assertion that Josephus would have identified Jesus as the one crucified by Pilate is as speculative as anything I’ve read from conservative Christian scholarship on the historical Jesus. Doherty’s interpretations of Origen and Eusebius’ mention of Josephus and James are almost as outlandish. There is no reason to assume that because their discussion of Josephus and James doesn’t reflect much of what Josephus actually said that they therefore must be referring to a different passage or can’t be referring to the passage in question. While proper citation is an issue today, it was certainly not at the time, and “paraphrases” which blatantly distorted original meanings were hardly rare.

To sum up, there is absolutely nothing to support Doherty’s claim (p. 221) that “[t]he phase “the one called the Christ” is demonstrably Christian”, as in the vast number of constructions, titles, and so forth used to identify Jesus, this one is hardly used at all, and when it is there is only a single usage in Matthew which might be called “Christian.” To argue that a designation or term used to describe Jesus is Christian because it appears in the NT is obviously fallacious because Jesus is referred by various derogatory terms more than once by non-believers, in the same way that Pilate and Josephus refer to him as “called Christ” rather than “Christ.”


James in Paul

Then there is the issue of James in Paul and the gospels. Doherty performs a nice little “sleight of hand” maneuver on p. 57 by referring to the construction adelphon en kurio/”brothers in the lord” and equating it with the genitive construction. Paul clearly uses the terms “brother” and “sister” without intending to refer to actual kin. Eleanor Dickey, in her paper (referred to above) on extended and literal use of kinship terms notes how common this was. However, she notes important exceptions to the metaphorical use of kinship terms, especially any time an author uses a kinship term to connect an individual who isn’t the author or the addressee. In such instances, she concludes that the term is always a literal usage, and it is exactly this usage we find in Paul’s Galatians. Doherty also relies on the use of “Lord”/kurios rather than “Jesus” as evidence that the reference to James it intended not to mean a literal brother but rather the “family” of brothers and sisters in Christ. However, this is again indicative of a lack of reference to (or knowledge of) scholarship. Had Doherty spent some time reading letters written in Greek during Roman rule he would have known that even outside of Christianity, the term kurios/Lord (among others) was often used by people writing letters and to or with reference to family. In her article “The Greek address system of the Roman period” Dickey notes that one of the major changes from classical Greek to the Greek during Paul’s time was the use of kurios even “without special intimacy, affection, or respect” within letters. And it was certainly not uncommon for authors of letters to refer to fathers and other authoritative or respected figures by the term kurios rather than their name. As in Josephus, the usage within Paul is quite clear: identification through a genitive kinship construction. This James is the brother of Jesus. He is the only one referred to as the brother of Jesus. Elsewhere, his use of “brother(s)” and “sisters” falls under the categories Dickey identifies as common metaphorical use of kinship terms.

James, the Brother of Jesus

Paul, Mark, Matthew, and Josephus (and perhaps Luke) all refer to a James, the brother of Jesus. It is possible that Matthew is dependent on Mark, but either way, that still leaves at least three independent references to Jesus’ brother. And whatever one’s view on the historical reliability (if it exists at all) of the gospels, the references within Josephus and Paul to Jesus’ brother remain. And despite Doherty’s arguments, there is every reason to believe both were authentic references to a literal brother of Jesus.
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
More on James

Why so much on identification? In the greco-roman and judaic world, where so many people shared the same name, certain constructions were needed to introduce and reintroduce people frequently. Kinship was the primary method:
"Iatrocles, brother of Ergochares, and Eueratus, son of Strombich/Iatrokles ho Ergocharous adelphos kai Eueratos ho Strombichou huios Aeschines on the Embassy 2.15


"and seeing Euphemus, the brother of Callias, son of Telocles/idon de Euphemon ton Kalliou tou Telokleous adelphon" Andocides On the Mysteries 1.40

"Everybody knows that Euaeon, the brother of Leodamas, killed Boeotus../isasin Euaiona polloi ton Leodamantos adelphon, apokteinanta Boioton...
Demosthenes Against Midias 71

"Certainly Attalus, the brother of Eumenes,.../Attalon goun ton Eumenous...adelphon Plutarch An seni respublica gerenda sit chap.1

"Timotheus, the son of Conon/Τιμόθεος ὁ Κόνωνος" Aeschines on the Embassy 2.70

These are not the only methods of identification, of course, and it is equally important to demonstrate that re-introductions were frequently necessary, as in Josephus.

In Vita, Jesus ben Sapphia is introduced first in V 66 by Iesous ho tou Sapphia pais, with the name of the kin used to identify follows the name Jesus, yet when he is (as Cohen puts it) "introduced in V 134 as if he were a new character" we find the inverse order: ho tou Saphia pais Iesous with an article followed by the entire genitive of relation and finally the name. In BJ II, Judas the Galilian is first introduced with en de Sephorei tes Galilaias Ioudas hious Ezekia where the place of origin used to identify Judas precedes his name and this is followed by a further identification via his father. However, later on in 2.118 we find tis aner Galilaios Ioudas onoma where again the identification through place of origin precedes the name, and this time there is no father mentioned. Even more interesting is how Josephus "reintroduces" Judas: "a certain Galilian, Judas by name" as if he hadn't already discussed him before. Again, even though it is a technically a re-introduction, as Cohen notes here as well there is nothing to indicate that it is anything other than an introduction.

And once again, trying to use "suspicious" word order Josephan identification/ (re-)introduction is to ignore all of Josephus. In both BJ and AJ a certain Ptolemy is twice identified by his brother, and both times his name appears last: ton adelphon Nikolaou Ptolemaion and adelphon ton Nikolaou Ptolemaion. In AJ 11.7.1 (297), we also find a certain Jesus introduced by his brother John: ἀδελφὸς ἦν τῷ Ἰωάννῃ Ἰησοῦς/"brother was to John Jesus." with the name of the person introduced again found last

In addition to the above examples (and those following) it's important to relate Josephan stylistic indentification with Greek syntax. While Cohen shows us Josephus' haphazard introduction methods, we need not even look to Josephus to find issue with "suspicious" word order. Kurzová argues there are no hard-and-fast rules governing syntax we can use. In Bakker's monograph on the Greek noun phrase and the frequency of prenominal referent modifiers, we again find syntactical support for the word order in AJ 20.200.

Nevertheless, there is one form which (while it may be accompanied with other identification information) so frequent it is given a name.
From Herodotus to Plutarch and beyond we see this same kin indentification construction all over the place: the basic schema: X the Y of Z.

Schwyzer (in his Griechische Grammatik) devotes an entire section to Der bloße Genitiv zum Ausdruck des Verwantschafts. Funk, Blass, & Debrunner's A Greek Grammar of the New Testament likewise includes an entire section on Genitive of origin and relationship. We even find descriptions in, for example:
Viti, C. (2008). Genitive word order in Ancient Greek: A functional analysis of word order freedom in the noun phrase. Glotta 84: pp. 203-238.

The author devotes an entire section to "kinship" a use relation "typically expressed by genitives in languages." She calls this the "genitive of kinship" and notes the various ways this construction is expressed. For example, "in prose a kinship relation can also be expressed by means of the structure X the one of Y.

This is an instantiation of an XYZ construction:
"(1) Paul is the father of Sally
X is the Y of Z
X (Paul), Y (father), Z (Sally))"

Dancygier, B. (2009). Genitives and proper names in constructional blends. in Vyvyan, E., & Pourcel, S. (eds.) New Directions in Cognitive Linguistics (pp. 161-181). Human Cognitive Processing Vol. 24. Amsterdam: John Benjamins Publishing Co..

Dancygier makes explicit that their are different types of this construction. I'm talking about one: kinship identification.

This particular XYZ construction belongs to the family Dancygier identifies as GEN-XYZ constructions. But it is a particular subtype (she identifies many). Kreyer (Genitive and of-constructions in modern writtern English International Journal of Corpus Linguistics 8:2) likewise categorizes this specific type of genitive construction from 7 others: "1. X is kin to Y (Kinship)"

But what about Paul, the use of brother and letters? Well, thankfully, we have Eleanor Dickey's paper "Literal and Extended Use of Kinship Terms in Documentary Papyri" in Mnemosyne. She notes "the widespread use in letters of adelphos, for example, for people other than brothers does not imply that adelphos no longer meant 'brother' at all, but rather that there were certain situations in which it was appropriate to call someone other than a brother 'brother.'

Dickey's study is designed to show (among other things) when we can distinguish whether an author actually means "brother." For example, the use of the nominative plural adelphoi as an address frequently did not refer to actual brothers. It turns out that we find the term used not to mean "a sibling" quite frequently, making it in general difficult to know when the term means sibling or not. There is, however, an exception: "There is no evidence that a person mentioned as being the brother or sister of someone other than the writer or addressee can be a spouse or anything else other than a sibling. (emphasis added). This is exactly what we find in Galatians: Paul mentions James, and identifies him neither as his own brother, nor addresses him as brother, but as the brother of someone else.


Each time we see Paul use the word brother or brothers, we must not only understand this usage within the context of Paul but the construction he uses in every instantiation. For example, we frequently see "brothers" as a general address to those he is writing to. We see "brothers in christ." And so on. In other words, we frequently find the word in metaphorical constructions in which Paul conceptualizes the "body of christ" or the ekklesia as composed of brothers and sisters in christ. And thus when "brother(s)" is used in this way, we have reason to reject the notion that Paul is referring to a literal brother.

This is quite different from the construction we find in Galations. Here we find an identification construction: James, the brother of the lord/Iakobon ton adelphon tou Kurio. It is a typical kinship identification construction: X the Y of Z.

This construction differs from the metaphorical constructions we find elsewhere. We don't have any reason to think it is not an identification construction, nor is it comparable to other uses of brother (paul distinguishes between brothers in christ and of the lord).
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And Josephus Again

In AJ 20.200, we find the same schematic XYZ construction, but while it is comparable in the abstract (the schematized XYZ identification construction itself) to Galatians, Paul needs only to identify James. For him to use "by name James" would be strange indeed (as would using "called Christ"). Keeping this in mind, we can look at both the genitive kin construction and the "by name James" in AJ 20.200. The focus is on the action of Ananus, and his assembling the sanhedrin. While talking about Ananus, Josephus then mentions "the brother of Jesus called Christ whose name was James."

Something quite similar happens in, for example, AJ 2.4 when the focus is on a certain illegitimate son Amalek, and his mother is introduced with ἐκ παλλακῆς αὐτῷ γεγονὼς Θαμνάης ὄνομα, where her occupation/status is put first, followed by her name.

And again we have a similar method in AJ 7.121:προσεμισθώσαντο δὲ καὶ τὸν ἐκ τῆς Μιχᾶς καλουμένης χώρας βασιλέα καὶ τέταρτον Ἴστοβον ὄνομα/And they also employed the King of a land called Maacah, and a fourth [king] by name Ishtob.

In fact, in general throughout antiquities, when Josephus uses "by name X" or "whose name was X" to talk about someone, he uses a reference modifier first.

Nor, again, are Josephus' kinship idenfications which don't employ "by name X" regular in any way.

For example, Josephus first identifies Justus in 34 with Πιστὸς παραγόμενος ὑπὸ Ἰούστου τοῦ παιδός/Pistus being guided by his boy Justus.

Then, two lines later, we find him "introducing" this Justus with Ἰοῦστος ὁ Πιστοῦ παῖς/Justus the boy of Pistus. Again, it is as if we are meeting Justus for the first time, and we are given a fairly standard identifcation (despite the fact that we don't actually need one, as no new Justus or Pistus has been introduced such that the reader would be confused). So we get the "standard" intro after the first introduction.

There is also Josephus' method of identifying Chares, Justus, and Jesus. He first talks about Chares in 177, while he is explaining how he described what happened to Chares to Justus. He introduces Χάρητα, συγγενὴς...ἦν οὗτος τοῦ Φιλίππου καὶ ...Ἰησοῦν τὸν ἀδελφὸν αὐτοῦ ἄνδρα τῆς ἀδελφῆς Ἰούστου/ Chares, that kinsman of Philip, and Jesus the brother of him the husband of the sister of Justus.

In better English, "Chares, the kinsman of Philip, and Jesus the brother of Justus' sister's husband.

This same incident is again described in 186:

κτείνουσι δὲ καὶ Χάρητα, καὶ μετ᾽ αὐτοῦ τινα τῶν συγγενῶνἸησοῦν καὶ Ἰούστου δὲ τοῦ Τιβεριέως ἀδελφὴν ἀνεῖλον/and the murdered Chares, and they killed with him a certain one of his kinsmen Jesus and of Justus of Tiberias brother (non literally, one of his kinsmen Jesus, who was also the brother of Justus of Tiberias).

Josephus has not just changed word order, but actual relations. Now Jesus is firstly the kinsman of Chares, and secondly the brother of Justus who (for some reason) Josephus finds it necessary to also identify with another genitive construction. Moreover, no longer is Jesus his brother in law, but simply his brother.

The use of "brother of Jesus called Christ" as a preposed reference modifier before "by name James" is no different than the majority of time we find Josephus referring to someone "whose name is X" or "by name X".


Meier sums things up rather nicely here, so I'll use his "Jesus in Josephus: A Modest Proposal"


"The clearly unauthentic text is a long interpolation found only in the Old Russian (popularly known as the "Slavonic") version of The Jewish War, surviving in Russian and Rumanian manuscripts. This passage is a wildly garbled condensation of various Gospel events, seasoned with the sort of bizarre legendary expansions found in apocryphal Gospels and Acts of the second and third centuries. Despite the spirited and ingenious attempt of Robert Eisler in the 1920s and 1930s to defend the authenticity of much of the Jesus material in the Slavonic Jewish War, almost all critics today discount his theory. In more recent decades, G. A. Williamson stood in a hopeless minority when he tried to maintain the authenticity of this and similar interpolations, which obviously come from a Christian hand (though not necessarily an orthodox one).

Not so easily dismissed is a reference to James, the brother of Jesus, in book 20 of The Jewish Antiquities. This short passage occurs in a context where Josephus has just described the death of the procurator Festus and the appointment of Albinus as his successor (A.D. 62). While Albinus is still on his way to Palestine, the high priest Ananus the Younger convenes the Sanhedrin without the procurator's consent and has certain enemies put to death. The key passage (Ant. 20.9.[Section 200]) reads: "Being therefore this kind of person [i.e., a heartless Sadducee], Ananus, thinking that he had a favorable opportunity because Festus had died and Albinus was still on his way, called a meeting [literally, "sanhedrin'] of judges and brought into it the brother of Jesus-who-is-called-Messiah [ton adelphon Iesou tou legomenou Christou], James by name, and some others. He made the accusation that they had transgressed the law, and he handed them over to be stoned."

There are a number of intriguing points about this short passage. First of all, unlike the text about Jesus from the Slavonic Josephus, this narrative is found in the main Greek-manuscript tradition of The Antiquities without any notable variation. The early 4th-century church historian Eusebius also quotes this passage from Josephus in his Ecclesiastical History (2.23.22).

Second, unlike the extensive review of Jesus' ministry in the Slavonic Josephus, we have here only a passing, almost blase reference to someone called James, whom Josephus obviously considers a minor character. He is mentioned only because his illegal execution causes Ananus to be deposed. But since "James" (actually, the Greek form of the English name James is Jakobos, Jacob) is so common in Jewish usage and in Josephus' writings, Josephus needs some designation to specify which Jacob/James he is talking about. Josephus apparently knows of no pedigree (e.g., "James the son of Joseph") he can use to identify this James; hence he is forced to identify him by his more well-known brother, Jesus, who in turn is specified as that particular Jesus "who-is-called-Messiah."

This leads to a third significant point: the way the text identifies James is not likely to have come from a Christian hand or even a Christian source. Neither the NT nor early Christian writers spoke of James of Jerusalem in a matter-of-fact way as "the brother of Jesus" (ho adelphos lesou), but rather--with the reverence we would expect--"the brother of the Lord" (ho adelphos tou kyriou) or "the brother of the Savior" (ho adelphos tou soteros). Paul, who was not overly fond of James, calls him "the brother of the Lord" in Gal 1:19 and no doubt is thinking especially of him when he speaks of "the brothers of the Lord" in 1 Cor 9:5. Hegesippus, the second-century church historian who was a Jewish convert and probably hailed from Palestine, likewise speaks of "James, the brother of the Lord" (in Eusebius' Ecclesiastical History 2.23.4); indeed, Hegesippus also speaks of certain other well-known Palestinian Christians as "a cousin of the Lord" (4.22.4), "the brothers of the Savior" (3.32.5), and "his [the Lord's] brother according to the flesh" (3.20.1). The point of all this is that Josephus' designation of James as "the brother of Jesus" squares neither with NT nor with early patristic usage, and so does not likely come from the hand of a Christian interpolator.

Fourth, the likelihood of the text coming from Josephus and not an early Christian is increased by the fact that Josephus' account of James' martyrdom differs in time and manner from that of Hegesippus. Josephus has James stoned to death by order of the high priest Ananus around A.D. 62, a good while before the Jewish War actually breaks out. According to Hegesippus, the scribes and Pharisees cast James down from the battlement of the Jerusalem temple. They begin to stone him but are constrained by a priest: finally a laundryman clubs James to death (Ecclesiastical History (2.23.12-18).James' martyrdom, says Hegesippus, was followed immediately by Vespasian's siege of Jerusalem (A.D. 70). Eusebius stresses that Hegesippust account agrees basically with that of the Church Father Clement of Alexandria (2.23.3,19); hence it was apparently the standard Christian story. Once again, it is highly unlikely that Josephus' version is the result of Christian editing of The Jewish Antiquities.

Fifth, there is also the glaring difference between the long, legendary, and edifying (for Christians) account from Hegesippus and the short, matter-of-fact statement of Josephus, who is interested in the illegal behavior of Ananus, not the faith and virtue of James. In fact, Josephus never tells us why James was the object of Ananus, wrath, unless being the "brother of Jesus-who-is-called-Messiah" is thought to be enough of a crime. Praise of James is notably lacking; he is one victim among several, not a glorious martyr dying alone in the spotlight.Also telling is the swipe at the "heartless" or "ruthless" Sadducees by the pro-Pharisaic Josephus; indeed, Josephus' more negative view of the Sadducees is one of the notable shifts from The Jewish War that characterize The Antiquities. In short, it is not surprising that the great Josephus scholar Louis L. Feldman notes: " . . . few have doubted the genuineness of this passage on James."
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
Why not address these were Earl could defend himself?



Oh wait I know why.

We would have to wade through Toto's bias, Chilis ramblings, mountainmans conspiracy, Spin telling you how wrong your greek is, [even though its fine] and achyra s minions [tulip] running off the sun god.

All before Earl had a chance to repond.


OK thanks for the info, it will help me argue with him. ;)
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Why not address these were Earl could defend himself?



Oh wait I know why.

We would have to wade through Toto's bias, Chilis ramblings, mountainmans conspiracy, Spin telling you how wrong your greek is, [even though its fine] and achyra s minions [tulip] running off the sun god.

All before Earl had a chance to repond.


OK thanks for the info, it will help me argue with him. ;)

Spin sits comfortably on a fence where he can always attack someone's view and never have to defend his own. He's an intelligent person, but he when it comes to something he doesn't know, or it turns out he uses an "argument" based on something he has pretended to know about (e.g. markedness), he just resorted to addressing my posts by referring to me in the third person and insulting any points rather than at least insult it and address it.

Doherty is a different matter. He did admit, if memory serves, that he was wrong about the number of visits Paul made and that he could be wrong about the wording being "awkward". However, although I don't recall what exactly he disagreed with, he certainly didn't think I had demonstrated anything that mattered. At least, though, he didn't ever pretend to know stuff he actually did not, and while I think his use of research is frequently misleading (deliberate or not), he has done a lot of research.

The problem, however, is that he's a" William Lane Craig" who isn't just biased (we all are), but had determined the answer in advance and will make the evidence fit however he needs.

Carrier, it turns out, is much worse. I can't believe I waited until know to read his dissertation. The way he treats rumors, uses art to make arguments about Roman "applied sciences", and has dozens and dozens of "scientists" he describes that we have almost no evidence for contrasts sharply with how skeptical he suddenly becomes when the argument is about Jesus. His dissertation is a gold mine for how much his bias the only thing driving his skepticism, as I've rarely seen a finer example of building detailed arguments based on fantasies of possible evidence. He's pretty much hanged himself. I can't wait to compare his statements about the need to approach the evidence we have for Jesus with far greater skepticism with the evidence behind his descriptions of dozens of "scientists".
 
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outhouse

Atheistically
Spin sits comfortably on a fence where he can always attack someone's view and never have to defend his own. He's an intelligent person, but he when it comes to something he doesn't know, or it turns out he uses an "argument" based on something he has pretended to know about (e.g. markedness), he just resorted to addressing my posts by referring to me in the third person and insulting any points rather than at least insult it and address it.

He is very smart and is in my top five internet regulars as far as knowledge goes. Sadly his arrow is not pointed in the right direction.

He is a myther, and does not follow the common dating of Gmark. I often wondered if he was Carrier in disguise, but ive seen old threads where they are both debating against each other.

Doherty is a different matter. He did admit, if memory serves, that he was wrong about the number of visits Paul made and that he could be wrong about the wording being "awkward". However, although I don't recall what exactly he disagreed with, he certainly didn't think I had demonstrated anything that mattered. At least, though, he didn't ever pretend to know stuff he actually did not, and while I think his use of research is frequently misleading (deliberate or not), he has done a lot of research.

Agreed.

What I like about Earl is he will try and debate, even with me a few times until I stump him. He has to force interpolations in his way every time, even if it is still 50/50 within scholarships whether it is or isn't.

I do respect him despite his arrow not being pointed in the right direction, and offer him respect and politeness I wont offer to many.

The problem, however, is that he's a" William Lane Craig" who isn't just biased (we all are), but had determined the answer in advance and will make the evidence fit however he needs.

Exactly, well put.


Carrier, it turns out, is much worse. I can't believe I waited until know to read his dissertation. The way he treats rumors, uses art to make arguments about Roman "applied sciences", and has dozens and dozens of "scientists" he describes that we have almost no evidence for contrasts sharply with how skeptical he suddenly becomes when the argument is about Jesus. His dissertation is a gold mine for how much his bias the only thing driving his skepticism, as I've rarely seen a finer example of building detailed arguments based on fantasies of possible evidence. He's pretty much hanged himself. I can't wait to compare his statements about the need to approach the evidence we have for Jesus with far greater skepticism with the evidence behind his descriptions of dozens of "scientists


The last few youtube vids that have showed this example has dropped my overall opinion of his work. I held him in a high place, less his always talking the safe place in scholarships always playing the middle of the road. Ive started to lose some respect for the man.

He relies way to heavily on Pauls verse that he received no information from any man. It is easily refutable.
 
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