Cross Examination

[cardero]

In the Bible it states that Jesus was nailed to a cross. Nails went into his outstretched hands and both his feet. Would this be enough to hold Christ up and support his weight?

 

[Moey]

No, they had to be nailed into his wrists and ankles.

 

[Gentoo]

In my CCD classes, the priest told us that he didn't bleed to death, but he suffocated. His upper body was slumping over until he couldn't breathe anymore. Sounds good, but I don't know that's what happened during the crusifixions.

 

[cardero]

In my CCD classes, the priest told us that he didn't bleed to death, but he suffocated. His upper body was slumping over until he couldn't breathe anymore. Sounds good, but I don't know that's what happened during the crusifixions.

The broke his legs so he couldn't pull himself up.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

And a soldier speared his side.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

His upper body was slumping over until he couldn't breathe anymore. Sounds good, but I don't know that's what happened during the crusifixions.

During a normal crucifixion, the legs would be broken to cause this. I'm not sure how the legs being broken would cause this alone though. After all, it would be extremely painfull to do so, but you could still support yourself. Maybe we should ask Mythbusters?

 

[ALifetimeToWaitFor....]

During a normal crucifixion, the legs would be broken to cause this. I'm not sure how the legs being broken would cause this alone though. After all, it would be extremely painfull to do so, but you could still support yourself. Maybe we should ask Mythbusters?

Try holding your arms at 90 degrees from your body for an hour. Its the same principle the body wears out over time.

The romans would put the spikes into the wrists and ankles in some cases. Causing an extreme pain when trying to support one self also this method of execution was extremely slow and painful.

Most of the time they only tied the criminals to the cross'.

 

[Gentoo]

Either way, not a very pleasant way to go.

 

[Bishka]

The broke his legs so he couldn't pull himself up.

When was this? From what I recall they did not break Jesus Christ's legs.

 

[cardero]

When was this? From what I recall they did not break Jesus Christ's legs.

I don't recall this either, I but the borrowed this answer from another member on another site (if inerested, PM me for the denomination). If this is true, than it would make it impossible for Jesus to keep lifting himself up and even more difficult for just his hands to support the upper part of him. If I can I will try to get a definitive scriptural source from this member.

 

[Mister Emu]

Nothing in the Bible says that His legs were broken.

 

[James the Persian]

Nothing in the Bible says that His legs were broken.

Quite right. In fact the text implies that they weren't. Romans broke crucifixion victims legs to hasten death when they were taking an overly long time to die. Christ on the other hand, apparently died unusually quickly.

James

 

[cardero]

Here is the original post with a link.

XXXXXXXXXX writes: No, his arms would probably also have been tied to the crossbeam, and his feet would have had something to rest against. Crucifixion was intended to be a slow, agonizing death from hunger, thirst and exposure over a period of days. The longer the victim was on the cross, the more labored his breathing would become as his lungs / chest cavity filled with fluid. The victim would need to pull himself up by his arms (most victims were usually just tied, not nailed, to the cross), and pushing himself up with his feet to allow him to expand his chest in order to breathe. That is why the Jewish elders asked that Jesus' legs be broken -- so that he wouldn't be able to push himself up to ease his breathing, and thus expire more quickly.


Check out the following site, which contains the text from an article in the Journal of the American Medical Association published in 1986, "On the physical death of Jesus Christ."

http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=252

 

[Shadow Wolf]

When was this? From what I recall they did not break Jesus Christ's legs.

They didn't, and it's commonly used for a supportive reason on the "Jesus survived the crucifixion" debates.
However, as others pointed out, it was a common practice to hasten death. Or maybe the soldiers were too tired after the beatings to have the strenght to break even one leg bone.

 

[sandy whitelinger]

Nothing in the Bible says that His legs were broken.

His legs could not have been broken or He would not have fulfilled scripture as being the sacrificial offering for sin. The offering had to be without spot or blemish.

 

[gmelrod]

His legs could not have been broken or He would not have fulfilled scripture as being the sacrificial offering for sin. The offering had to be without spot or blemish.

By that logic wouldn't that wounds suffer from the scourging, nails, and crown of thorns also invalidate that sacrifice. What qualifies as a blemish?

It is interesting to note that in early christian artwork Christ was portrayed as having the nails though hands and feet. At this same time period recorded incidents of stigmata (manifestations of the wounds of Christ) appeared in the same locations. Later when the artwork changed to manifest more likely events the location of the stigmata changed to mach. This seems to imply a psychosomatic cause for stigmata as real manifestaion should not have chaged as the truth is fixed.

 

[James the Persian]

It is interesting to note that in early christian artwork Christ was portrayed as having the nails though hands and feet. At this same time period recorded incidents of stigmata (manifestations of the wounds of Christ) appeared in the same locations. Later when the artwork changed to manifest more likely events the location of the stigmata changed to mach. This seems to imply a psychosomatic cause for stigmata as real manifestaion should not have chaged as the truth is fixed.

Stigmata were unknown in the early Church. They're a late phenomenon known only to Roman Catholics and so firmly within the second millennium and solely in the west. Any effect such as you describe would only have an effect upon western artwork. In fact, what you say may be true so long as you don't try to overdo its general significance for Christianity as a whole. I've yet to see a single icon (whether from us or the Oriental Orthodox) that depicts the nails through wrist or ankle, but I have seen western religious art that does.

James

 

[lew0049]

Actually, if you carefully examine the scripture there are really two plausible ways Jesus died, both of which go hand in hand... either heart failure or a lack of oxygen. This is shown when you read the gospel of John as it says that "blood and water" came out when Jesus was stabbed with the spear. The clear fluid "water" would be the pericardial effusion and pleural effusion. This fluid would go around the heart and lungs whenever someone is experiencing a high volume of stress and shock - hence when Jesus was stabbed with the spear the fluid would pour out followed by blood. Although in John it says that "blood and water" came out, generally, the order of words in ancient Greek would be placed in a sequence by prominence. Meaning since there would be more blood than water, John would write "blood and water" instead of "water and blood."

 

[lew0049]

Another thing, the arms of most people would be dislocated during a crucifixion because the arms would be stretched 3-5 inches. There is even Biblical evidence of this in Psalms 22 which foretells of His crucifixion hundred of years before it took place as it says "my bones are out of joint." The scriputures do not mention His legs being broken though. I believe that the legs of people are broken only when he/she has been alive for an extended amount of time.

 

[Comprehend]

His legs could not have been broken or He would not have fulfilled scripture as being the sacrificial offering for sin. The offering had to be without spot or blemish.

I think the proper scripture to support the argument that a bone was not broken is this one, (the reference to without spot or blemish referred to the physical appearance of the animal sacrifices but was symbolic of Jesus being without sin):



Isa 42:2-3
2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street.
3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth.