Cross or Upright Stake

[YoursTrue]

No, I got it. I know why those verses are not prophecies. I already explained why. I quoted and linked a source that explains why they fail.

Actually the verses cited are very good and lead to a conclusion you do not agree with. Those statements were written and held by the Jews long before Jesus appeared on the earth.

 

[cataway]

Actually the verses cited are very good and lead to a conclusion you do not agree with. Those statements were written and held by the Jews long before Jesus appeared on the earth.

yep, and that was only part of them

 

[Subduction Zone]

So if I understand you correctly, you did not "disprove God's existence."

That is correct. I never tried to do so. I used an example of bad logic to show how @cataway failed.

The fact that he failed does not disprove God either. It merely showed how his argument did not use any prophecies for Jesus. Quote mining the Bible is abusing the Bible whether done by a believer or a disbeliever.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Actually the verses cited are very good and lead to a conclusion you do not agree with. Those statements were written and held by the Jews long before Jesus appeared on the earth.

No, just because you fell for a lie that supports your beliefs does not make it a good argument. You have to be consistent in your reasoning. By that standard my "There is no God" argument is valid.

I am disappointed. I thought that you were finally getting it.

Those verses tend to be about Israel if you read them in context. So of course the Hebrew authors agreed with them. They would not agree with your abuse of them anymore than they would agree with my example of quote mining.

 

[Subduction Zone]

yep, and that was only part of them

Then by that standard my quote mining the Bible where it says "There is no God" refutes God's existence.

 

[cataway]

Then by that standard my quote mining the Bible where it says "There is no God" refutes God's existence.

Psalm 10:4​

In his haughtiness, the wicked man makes no investigation; All his thoughts are: “There is no God.”

 

[Subduction Zone]

Psalm 10:4​

In his haughtiness, the wicked man makes no investigation; All his thoughts are: “There is no God.”

Yes, and if I wanted to I could have quoted more context from all of your so called prophecies that would show that they were not about Jesus. But I do not need to do that. You were the one that claimed that they were prophecies, that they merely look as if they could have been talking about Jesus does not make them prophecies any more than my quotes out of context disproved God. I was using your strategy and it is a failed strategy. I explained to you how those were not prophecies. I quoted and linked an article that explained why those were not prophecies. A Jew could have told you why they were not prophecies.


Those are from Christian apologists, also known as liars for Jesus. Actual Christian scholars do not think of them as prophecies.

 

[cataway]

what of this prophecy .Acts 20 :29 I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30  and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves."

would they be the liars you speak of ?

 

[Subduction Zone]

what of this prophecy .Acts 20 :29 I know that after my going away oppressive wolves will enter in among you and will not treat the flock with tenderness, 30  and from among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves."

would they be the liars you speak of ?

That is not a prophecy as posted. Nor can it be a "true prophecy". Once again, when you quote the Bible you need to do it in context and include a link. Otherwise you are only admitting that my "There is no God" quotation is valid.

Seriously you should read this:

Biblical prophecies

There are numerous Biblical prophecies, some vaguely fulfilled, others strangely unfulfilled. Of course, like the Bible, the Quran also contains what its followers maintain are fulfilled prophesies. Christians tend to find these unconvincing or silly — which is coincidentally the attitude which...

rationalwiki.org

Or at the very least make sure that any so called prophecy that you use meets these criteria:

For a statement to be Biblical foreknowledge, it must fit all of the five following criteria:

1. It must be accurate. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not accurate, because knowledge (and thus foreknowledge) excludes inaccurate statements. TLDR: It's true.
2. It must be in the Bible. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not in the Bible, because Biblical by definition foreknowledge can only come from the Bible itself, rather than modern reinterpretations of the text. TLDR: It's in plain words in the Bible.
3. It must be precise and unambiguous. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if meaningless philosophical musings or multiple possible ideas could fulfill the foreknowledge, because ambiguity prevents one from knowing whether the foreknowledge was intentional rather than accidental. TLDR: Vague "predictions" don't count.
4. It must be improbable. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of a pure guess, because foreknowledge requires a person to actually know something true, while a correct guess doesn't mean that the guesser knows anything. This also excludes contemporary beliefs that happened to be true, but were believed to be true without solid evidence. TLDR: Lucky guesses don't count.
5. It must have been unknown. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of an educated guess based off contemporary knowledge, because foreknowledge requires a person to know a statement when it would have been impossible, outside of supernatural power, for that person to know it. TLDR: Ideas of the time don't count.

Your Acts verse appears to fail #4.

 

[cataway]

That is not a prophecy as posted. Nor can it be a "true prophecy". Once again, when you quote the Bible you need to do it in context and include a link. Otherwise you are only admitting that my "There is no God" quotation is valid.

Seriously you should read this:

Biblical prophecies

There are numerous Biblical prophecies, some vaguely fulfilled, others strangely unfulfilled. Of course, like the Bible, the Quran also contains what its followers maintain are fulfilled prophesies. Christians tend to find these unconvincing or silly — which is coincidentally the attitude which...

rationalwiki.org

Or at the very least make sure that any so called prophecy that you use meets these criteria:

For a statement to be Biblical foreknowledge, it must fit all of the five following criteria:

1. It must be accurate. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not accurate, because knowledge (and thus foreknowledge) excludes inaccurate statements. TLDR: It's true.
2. It must be in the Bible. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it is not in the Bible, because Biblical by definition foreknowledge can only come from the Bible itself, rather than modern reinterpretations of the text. TLDR: It's in plain words in the Bible.
3. It must be precise and unambiguous. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if meaningless philosophical musings or multiple possible ideas could fulfill the foreknowledge, because ambiguity prevents one from knowing whether the foreknowledge was intentional rather than accidental. TLDR: Vague "predictions" don't count.
4. It must be improbable. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of a pure guess, because foreknowledge requires a person to actually know something true, while a correct guess doesn't mean that the guesser knows anything. This also excludes contemporary beliefs that happened to be true, but were believed to be true without solid evidence. TLDR: Lucky guesses don't count.
5. It must have been unknown. A statement cannot be Biblical foreknowledge if it reasonably could be the result of an educated guess based off contemporary knowledge, because foreknowledge requires a person to know a statement when it would have been impossible, outside of supernatural power, for that person to know it. TLDR: Ideas of the time don't count.

Your Acts verse appears to fail #4.

#4 is only probable to you because your hindsight. to those at that time would say that will never happen

 

[YoursTrue]

That is correct. I never tried to do so. I used an example of bad logic to show how @cataway failed.

The fact that he failed does not disprove God either. It merely showed how his argument did not use any prophecies for Jesus. Quote mining the Bible is abusing the Bible whether done by a believer or a disbeliever.

I do not believe we will know now exactly what the instrument looked like that Jesus was nailed to.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I do not believe we will know now exactly what the instrument looked like that Jesus was nailed to.

The description of the whole event does make it sound as if the authors of the Gospels thought that it was a Tau cross.

 

[Subduction Zone]

#4 is only probable to you because your hindsight. to those at that time would say that will never happen

Incorrect. What the believers of that time believed does not enter into it. We can use what we know now to show that prophecy was nothing special. Here is an example, if I prophesied that the next time you go to the store that you will see a red car and you see one does that make me a prophet? Since red is a very popular color I would say it doesn't make me a prophet. It would not matter if you believed that red was a very rare color or not. You might believe that and be impressed by my prophecy, but a rational person would not be impressed at all.