Culture clash in the hallway

[YmirGF]

At the risk of having stuff thrown at me, is anyone else finding this argument in this thread hilariously ironic

Yeah, while I was writing my comment two posts back that connection dawned on me. It is ironic, ain't it?

 

[Gharib]

Oh good grief, Ez. SINCE your command of English is not great you should be especially careful about what you say and how you say it, knowing full well that you may be misunderstood.

my statement was very clear Ymir. i will post it again and tell me where you went wrong?

 

[themadhair]

When people act in the manner you have on this thread eselam then, frankly, you deserve to have the **** ripped out of you.

Think about what happened. You made a remark that seemed to suggest that you viewed women as unequals. Bear in mind that this remark immediately proceded you saying that other cultures should adapt to Islam.

People, quite rightly in my view, took issue with your insinuation that women were unequal and, now pay attention here eselam because this bit is important, those people addressed that insinuation and only that insinuation.

But you decided to take all those comments as being racist/ignorant/whatever rather than point out any misunderstanding. The irony to all this is that it is you eselam that made a incorrect judgement call on the other posters as you went on an ignorant and pathetic tirade.

Why did you take offence to this comment made by Phasmid: “Darn, I guess you'll just have to treat women as equals” ? If you view that comment as being racist/ignorant/displaying cultural hatred/whatever then you need a reality check.

And I really hope that people take the **** out of you for such a rash mentality to be offended until you learn to wise up a little.

 

[YmirGF]

And I really hope that people take the **** out of you for such a rash mentality to be offended until you learn to wise up a little.

To be fair, he is very young and hasn't had a very solid education...

 

[themadhair]

LOL, 2 Muslims talked and they both got misunderstood, Culture clash?!

Not really. In your case you immediately clarified when Phasmid commented on what you said. Eselam decided to accuse people of racism/hatred, call them ignorant, accuse them of not having their brains inside, etc.
Wonder why people took issue with eselam and not you?

 

[Gharib]

When people act in the manner you have on this thread eselam then, frankly, you deserve to have the **** ripped out of you.

Think about what happened. You made a remark that seemed to suggest that you viewed women as unequals. Bear in mind that this remark immediately proceded you saying that other cultures should adapt to Islam.

People, quite rightly in my view, took issue with your insinuation that women were unequal and, now pay attention here eselam because this bit is important, those people addressed that insinuation and only that insinuation.

But you decided to take all those comments as being racist/ignorant/whatever rather than point out any misunderstanding. The irony to all this is that it is you eselam that made a incorrect judgement call on the other posters as you went on an ignorant and pathetic tirade.

Why did you take offence to this comment made by Phasmid: “Darn, I guess you'll just have to treat women as equals” ? If you view that comment as being racist/ignorant/displaying cultural hatred/whatever then you need a reality check.

And I really hope that people take the **** out of you for such a rash mentality to be offended until you learn to wise up a little.

are you for real?

the statement of phasmid was racist cos, you guys say islam gives no equal rights to women. so he was speaking out of ignorance. and i do find that offencive, how the hell does he say that women have no equal rights in islam when he knows nothing about it?

if i need a reality chech due to that, then i don't want to start on you.

second of all, you whatch your mouth, don't swear at me.

third thing i've already explaind my statement and possition.

anything else you want to add?

 

[Gharib]

originally posted by me

but getting back to the OP, that is an over reaction, the man doesn't live in Riyadh like someone had said, so then he should not get offended.

i live in ozz, and in shops there are female attendants at the cashier, but clothes and food are a must, what can i do?

 

[themadhair]

the statement of phasmid was racist cos, you guys say islam gives no equal rights to women.

If you want and try and excuse the reality of unequal treatment of women in Islamic society then feel free, but don’t ******* expect anyone to humour you when you try to pretend those situations don’t exist. And given that the comment you made that sparked this argument referenced this (i.e. that in Oz women can serve you as opposed to the culture you were making the differentiation with) I think you just shot yourself in the foot.

so he was speaking out of ignorance.

The comment Phasmid made was based squarely on yours. Ignoring this rather crucial point hurts your credibility here.

and i do find that offencive, how the hell does he say that women have no equal rights in islam when he knows nothing about it?

As pointed out above, and you really should start paying attention at some point, it was you who made the distinction between those cultures on how women, in their role as store clerks, differed. Essentially you are accusing others of making a distinction that you already made.

if i need a reality chech due to that, then i don't want to start on you.

You feel free to continue feeling persecuted and that the whole world is against you and that we must be picking on you because your different. Whatever fills your boots and helps you deal with legitimate criticism.

second of all, you whatch your mouth, don't swear at me.

I would ask you to wise up but we don’t always get what we ******* want now do we?

third thing i've already explaind my statement and possition.

I get your position eselam. I just happen to think it is a pile of gosa and a shameless attempt to justify what was an act of monumental stupidity on your part. I really wonder how someone can be so perpetually offended while being so utterly off the wall.

anything else you want to add?

Yes – wise up. You made the insinuation of unequal treatment, so don’t get your panties in a bunch when folks take issue with it.

 

[Father Heathen]

what the hell?

first i thank madhuri for trying to explain what i meant by my post, she's the only one with a brain around here. unlike the rest.

you guys really have issues, don't let your arrogance get in your way of understanding, OK.

my statement about having to go to the shops was me saying that i have come to live here, so i can't complain that there are women at the cashier, it is a must for me to get food, so i have to go and buy it, no matter if the cashier is a male or a female.

how hard was that to understand? geez use your brains next time, don't promote racism and hatred out of post you have no understanding of?

i did say that the man the OP speaks of has over reacted, then you recon i would say that all cashiers must be males just cos i can't talk to a female?

am i talking to children?

We understand, but we're also saying that cultural differences are never an excuse for misogyny and sexism. Now how exactly is it racist to not accept the prejudices and intolerances of others? Are you implying that such behavior is a genetic trait, or what? But really, why would female attendants be a problem to begin with? Why would respecting and interacting with them be such a huge sacrifice for you?

 

[Father Heathen]

being racist? well culturacists (don't if it's an actuall word) would probably fit better

I don't judge based on race, age, gender, sexuality or nationality. I do, however, judge cultures and believe that some are superior to others. It depends on how a particular culture respects human rights, civil liberties, social justice and equality. Beliefs and ideas should indeed be scrutinized and critiqued to weigh their value and validity.

 

[Madhuri]

We understand, but we're also saying that cultural differences are never an excuse for misogyny and sexism. Now how exactly is it racist to not accept the prejudices and intolerances of others? Are you implying that such behavior is a genetic trait, or what? But really, why would female attendants be a problem to begin with? Why would respecting and interacting with them be such a huge sacrifice for you?

I think you will find that his original statement was actually agreeing with everyone else. His initial mention of racism was addressed to how he felt others were treating him.
So on the one hand, he was misunderstood (due to linguistic factors) and then he misunderstood why he was being condemned. Because he misunderstood -as well- he fired back with offensive statements.
Like I said, I do not think that any particular person is to blame. But unless you guys are willing to resolve this respectfully then there will be real responsibility.

I'm out of this now.

 

[Sunstone]

Maybe this guy is just a jerk, I have known fights to kick off because someone was allegedly looking at someone else's wife before, doesn't have to be a Muslim to be an overbearing insecure *******, if everyone of these incidents made it to the papers, we would need something a little bigger than a broadsheet, more like a bed sheet.

That's pretty much my take on this incident, Monta. Culture probably plays some role in it, but the guy himself can't be excused. He's most likely one of those insecure jerks you can find anywhere. I was sitting on a sidewalk cafe not too long ago, and I saw a guy like that coming down the sidewalk with his girl friend. He was giving everyone such hard looks that he telegraphed his insecurity for half a block. What a flake!

 

[Sunstone]

Yes but I've been observing Esalam'a use of communication, which is not perfect, and it really wouldn't surprise me if he meant something more like this:

"Muslim culture says this <---let's make light of it with my hahaha laughing.
The dude in this story over exaggerated.
Here in Oz I am faced with a culture where women work at the shops I need to go to which I am not used to but I do not over-react because I understand it is a different culture."

Do you see how this could be construed?
It would then explain why Esalam was confused about being criticised and reacting angrily to feeling discriminated against.

See?

That's pretty much how I understood Esalam's point.

 

[Sunstone]

At the risk of having stuff thrown at me, is anyone else finding this argument in this thread hilariously ironic

That says it all.

 

[Nepenthe]

Not to distract from the thread's turn, but I suppose I'm obligated to respond to Zardoz. Meh.

Really? All hell breaks loose? Seen this happen, and the Rabbi was cordial and polite. Don't bring your own bull**** into threads that have nothing to do with it.

Yes, I have seen it, I have experienced it. I've seen a rabbi respond cordially and I've seen one incident where another was not polite; I've read of both instances as well. I would define the incident I saw and some of the ones I've read of as "all hell breaks loose"; I would describe it as offended parties and an argument. And my comment was perfectly in line with socio-cultural misunderstandings leading to offense, perfectly in line with the OP. So no bull***, but a passing anecdote that has everything to do with the thread.

Show me where all hell breaks loose. There better be death threats or it's not hell breaking loose.

You don't get to define the OP, you don't get to define what I mean by "all hell breaking loose" either. I explained it. There doesn't have to be death threats to constitute "all hell breaking loose".

Just upset people don't count, ppl get their knickers in a bunch over anything.

Yes, upset people do count; you don't get to redefine a common expression, much less my post, because of some feigned offense.
As you said, "...people get their knickers in a bunch over anything." You took my response to your posts right outta my mouth. Well done.

 

[Vile Atheist]

Point being that anyone (or any culture) that oppresses races, sexes, religions, nationalities, sexual orientations, or any other such factors WILL be consequently reviled in the West. And those who don't like it are free to move to more "tolerant" societies like Saudi Arabia.

Canada is not the United States. If someone immigrates here, Canadians do not expect them to be fully "Canadianized". People are free to express their culture. But when that culture undermines the very tenets our Canadian society was built on - undermines the very freedoms Canadians love and enjoy and in past generations fought and died on the battlefield to protect, we understandably get a little peeved.

We do have a few expectations like whoever immigrates here should learn an official language (either English or French) and we do expect politeness from everyone. We are not going to tell a Muslim who immigrates here he cannot practice Islam. But if that ******* is beating his wife or taking offence at a simple greeting and justifying it with his religion or culture, it's clear this is not a country in which he belongs.

I'm frankly surprised the guy didn't flip out sooner because getting a "Good morning!" or "Hello!" from complete strangers is the norm in Canada. I've carried out full blown conversations with people I just meet in the street - people I've never met before and probably will never see again. And they show a genuine interest in you. At least in my area and other places I've been within Canada.

Canada is meant to be a mosaic of different cultures living in harmony and understanding with each other. But there are some pieces of the mosaic we're willing to leave out if they are a little old. Like...7th century old.

 

[Stellify]

Hmm.... I feel bad for the author of that article. He was only trying to be polite.
I think the neighbor in question should have shrugged off the greeting completely, realizing it was intended in a positive way.
Or, if having his wife spoken to (gods forbid ) was really such a problem, he could have politely explained to the author that he found it insulting, and asked him nicely not to do it again. I'm sure the author would have found it a bit strange, but he probably would have agreed.

Even if there's a culture clash, there's no reason not to handle it in a civil manner.

 

[Zephyr]

Hey everybody I hate all Muslims and think they shouldn't be allowed to work in stores. What's that? You think I'm wrong? Stop being racists! You should have to adapt to me!

 

[Stellify]

Hey everybody I hate all Muslims and think they shouldn't be allowed to work in stores. What's that? You think I'm wrong? Stop being racists! You should have to adapt to me!

psst: you forgot to add a bunch of petty insults and name-calling....You're not being nearly childish and disrespectful enough.

 

[Sahar]

I don't judge base on race, age, gender, sexuality or nationality. I do, however, judge cultures and believe that some are superior to others. It depends on how a particular culture respects human rights, civil liberties, social justice and equality. Beliefs and ideas should indeed be scrutinized and critiqued to weigh their value and validity.

Of course you hold the culture of the white man as superior to others, if the world doesn't submit to his version of freedom, human rights...bla bla bla then they don't belong to the free civilized world (the world of the white man).
I agree with eselam (except on the Hitler part) your racism, hatred and bigotry are disgusting, but I hope viewing others as inferior makes you feel good about yourself.