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Dating fossils and rock formations by scientific methods,

Colt

Well-Known Member
Observing the evidence , i belive that most likely we have Older Earth.

But that doesn't go against the Christian teachings of the Bible.That does not make it false.
The Bible does not say how Old is the Earth.

It gives as pattern and we explore possibilities.That's it.
Can we prove it that is 100 % accurate? I don't think so.

The Bible is not the only Historical evidence that we have.

Other historical events leaves us with other possibilities.

The Bible does not reject that.

Timothy 3:16-17
"All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work."

The Bible uses "other people" in verses very often and it does not explain in details the orign of every nation in the world when historical testaments are considered.

What are AC and BC in History?

BC stands for 'Before Christ', and as we can imagine, it corresponds to events that happened before Jesus. AC stands for 'After Christ', but instead of that we use AD - which is short for 'Anno Domini', a Latin phrase which roughly translates to 'In the year of the lord'.


It is very odd to me how scientism or should i say Atheism tries to remove the historical testament of the argument.
There is evidence in history about Jesus.
And not just within the Bible , Outside also.

How we Christians interprete that Bible is one possibility to seek for 'Truth'.

Science does not determine Truth.

I seek 'Truth' , not orign of life.
I do not bother myself so much with orign of life , since most probably we will never have the ability to explain with 100 % accuracy how it was and how will it be.

We just explore highest possibilities.
It is possible that we will try to define Nature as much as we can , but i don't think that we have the tools to explain it most precisly or 100 %.
That does not contradict 'Just because wo don't know doesn't mean we won't.'

Atheists think that with tool they will leave mark on time , but they don't understand that you can't erase history.
We don't decide who writes what.
You have a choice , Yes or No.

You don't belive it , i don't have a problem with that.

But i have never claimed that i belive in what i belive because of evidence.
To be more precise , on how science defines evidence.
My belief is based on faith.

I know that i am real , and that is enough for me to accept the first axiom of Science.
Reality is real.
I don't need any expiriments since my mind acknowledges the relation with another mind.
That is what makes Reality real.
Or we will use intellectual 'poision' to make the discussion more difficult?

The only thing capable of producing language is mind.That's it.

Recently , there are new studies with DNA language and how it relates with gematria.We will see where that leads..

We Christians do not seek to explain the orign of the world , since we accept that we are created.
We can only assume , nothing more.

Scriptute does not say that i have to submit to any Institute :)

In its narrative,It teaches me that i must have the capacity to learn , and to question as much as i can.
The more we ask , the more we will know.

And why does 'Truth' have to make consensus with how 'Science' defines the Laws of Nature?

These are two separate things.

I just find it odd to belive that science only closes gaps , and does not open new ones.

I am interested to see how my argument is not objective.
The pursuit of material and spiritual truths should have no real conflict with each other.
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Finally , we agree


Let's put atheism aside.
I am always for consensus when it is reasoned.
OK
This is not the first time that you interpret what i claim.
Please avoid to use that further.
Some of your statements were conflicting.
I accept that Science does not deal with truth.
OK
The definition of faith:
"Strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof."
Good definition.
Then it is more clear to me that you don't understand my critic.
I don't reject how Science operates.


I do not have problem with that.
I never claimed that i understand science any different from how you understand it.


I don't argue the methods that you use , i argue the accuracy of the methods.
The sources provided at the beginning of the thread dealt specifically with the accuracy and validity of radiometric and other dating methods. The dating methods were determined t be accurate particularly when compared to more than one dating methods

You need to clarify what your objections are concerning the accuracy of dating methods.
Again , you interpete claims in my name.


What of : My belief is based on faith , do you not understand?
You want me to refute what i say by definition?
I will try to understand you by the accepted English definitions of words such as evidence, experiment, objective and subjective. It makes things difficult if you choose to use your own personal definitions.
I won't take your advice , i am sorry.
I have a reason for that.
It has to do with how you interpete the Bible.
It says to me that you don't value evidence with the same standard.
I don't see consensus here.
I value evidence as evidence as defined in the English language and used in science, history and archaeology.
You need to be specific why you define terms by your own personal definition and not standard definitions, which makes communication difficult.
We will speak about it , i just could't help myself answering the challange.
I have notes on my laptop , as i said you will get your answers when i go back home and re-study everything.I am still in my homeland

But i don't mind discussing it.

I don't mind if i am wrong , but as i said that does not answer one of the most important questions for us as individuals.
It does not explain Human Genesis.


Where does dating methods leads to?
Tell me that
The accuracy and validity of the dating methods was the original disagreement that lead to this thread. The references provided dealt specifically with the accuracy and validity of the dating methods.

Based on these references or ones you provide: What is the problem with the accuracy or the validity of scientific dating methods?


I tried to open 'Truth' with you in the way that you decide , but you avoid that.Why?
Two problems. First, this was intended to be a thread on the science of dating methods and other related issues on the history of the earth, life and humanity. Claims of truth are not an issue in science. Second, claims of truth from the subjective religious perspective is problematic. Religious claims are by their nature in wide disagreement and controversy between different religions and churches without consensus.

You may claim truth concerning your religious beliefs, but in terms of reality I have to consider it based on faith.
The mind is the consceous product of evolution , and you reject that? Why ?
You reject that the mind is capable of defining by definition.
I do not reject that. The problem is the wording here in your previous post and here. Yes, the brain and mind evolved and the evolution of consciousness is the product. The evidence is the progressive nature in animals as they become more complex. The appearance of evidence of consciousness begins with animals with complex nervous systems.
 
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Димитар

Прaвославие!
The sources provided at the beginning of the thread dealt specifically with the accuracy and validity of radiometric and other dating methods. The dating methods were determined t be accurate particularly when compared to more than one dating methods

You need to clarify what your objections are concerning the accuracy of dating methods.

I will try to understand you by the accepted English definitions of words such as evidence, experiment, objective and subjective. It makes things difficult if you choose to use your own personal definitions.

I value evidence as evidence as defined in the English language and used in science, history and archaeology.
You need to be specific why you define terms by your own personal definition and not standard definitions, which makes communication difficult.

The accuracy and validity of the dating methods was the original disagreement that lead to this thread. The references provided dealt specifically with the accuracy and validity of the dating methods.

Based on these references or ones you provide: What is the problem with the accuracy or the validity of scientific dating methods?



Two problems. First, this was intended to be a thread on the science of dating methods and other related issues on the history of the earth, life and humanity. Claims of truth are not an issue in science. Second, claims of truth from the subjective religious perspective is problematic. Religious claims are by their nature in wide disagreement and controversy between different religions and churches without consensus.

You may claim truth concerning your religious beliefs, but in terms of reality I have to consider it based on faith.

I do not reject that. The problem is the wording here in your previous post and here. Yes, the brain and mind evolved and the evolution of consciousness is the product. The evidence is the progressive nature in animals as they become more complex. The appearance of evidence of consciousness begins with animals with complex nervous systems.
Let's stick with the threat as you suggested , i will answer it as i said.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
It seems to me that what tries to show up in the surface is the arrogance of your intellect.
Critical thinkers get that a lot from the faithful especially when they are told that there are methods for determining correct ideas and knowing that they are correct. And the faith need not be solely religious. People also had faith that the Covid virus was more dangerous than the vaccine, but they were demonstrably wrong and this could be both known and shown. Still, we'd see, "Well, that's just your arrogant opinion." Some of them are dead now. Or the election hoax contingent, who refused to respect the evidence of election integrity. I'm sure that they thought that they were being lied to when it was possible to know that they weren't, but only if one possessed the critical thinking skills and temperament for such analysis. Some of them are in jail, just out of jail, or headed there or prison.
when you accept the evidence for the existence of many Hellenic teachers, do you apply the same standards as to the existence of Jesus?
You didn't ask me, but my answer is yes. Why would a critical thinker introduce a second set of standards for evaluating evidence? Did Jesus and Socrates really live? Did one die on a cross and the other from drinking poison? Probably, but nobody knows. In each case, what we think we know comes second-hand, and in each case it doesn't really matter if either of those people actually lived, so we can be agnostic about it and say maybe they did, maybe they didn't. One standard for both.
Christianity is oriented in seeking 'truth' , since Jesus claims to be truth.
But that is not what truth is. No idea deserves to be called truth, correct, knowledge, or fact unless it has been demonstrated empirically to be such.
This is not the first time that you interpret what i claim.
That's what critical thinking is - evaluating claims.
The definition of faith: "Strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof."
That's incomplete in my opinion. It doesn't include nonreligious faith such as antivaxxer and election hoax faith. And it praises the act by using the words spiritual and conviction - it might be a virtue to think that way, as if that makes these beliefs more than just guesses.
Where does the Bible say that it needs to be interpreted as literal?
It's interesting that this question seems to be asked only in the context of scripture. What books that are written to be read and understood literally begin with a statement to that effect? Does The Rise And Fall Of The Roman Empire say such a thing? How about Newton's Principia? Where do either of those books say that their content is to be understood literally? How about the John Adams biography? Does it say that it is meant to be believed literally? No, because neither those authors nor the rest of us since felt any need to walk back any of what they wrote. Newton stuck some religious thought into Principia, but nobody is claiming that he didn't mean it literally when he said that every now and then, God had to manually correct the orbits of the planets periodically in order to keep them orbiting the sun, since his mathematics predicted that Jupiter and Saturn would throw planets like the earth into the sun or out of the solar system without divine intervention. Laplace came along a century later to show that that wasn't necessary, but nobody asks "Where does Newton say to take that part literally?" Newton simply made an error. So did the Bible writers. Many.
We know for certain that people used to believe that Jesus was crucified and resurrected from the dead. They were persecuted for that. There is evidence in history for that, in the Roman Senate , more precisely
So what? Do you think that that is evidence that Jesus was resurrected? Assuming that people were persecuted for such a belief, why should we think that they were correct about that just because they died for believing it?
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Can a belief without proof be true?
I think that you can answer that yourself.

But more to the point, you ignored everything that was written to you including the comment you quoted. How about addressing some of that post before moving on? We can start with, "No idea deserves to be called truth, correct, knowledge, or fact unless it has been demonstrated empirically to be such" in response to, "Christianity is oriented in seeking 'truth,' since Jesus claims to be truth."

I repeat: Nothing deserves to be called the truth until it has been demonstrated to be correct. That includes claims about Jesus and Christianity. Do you disagree? If so, what is your definition of truth? Anything you happen to believe? Anything claimed about or by Jesus? What you called "spiritual conviction" above in your definition of faith and which I renamed guessing and which correctly describes your faith-based claim about truth.

Once again, if you disagree, please explain the difference between something believed by faith and a guess in addition to why you call such beliefs truth. I'm a former Christian and can assure you that much that Jesus is alleged to have said or been cannot be called truth even if it were correct. Words about gods and heaven are just claims, and being unfalsifiable ones, the correct term is that they're not right or wrong, but rather, not even wrong:

"Not even wrong" is a phrase [that] uses faulty reasoning or speculative premises, which can be neither affirmed nor denied and thus cannot be discussed rigorously and scientifically. The phrase "not even wrong" is synonymous with "unfalsifiable."
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Can a belief without proof be true?
Beliefs by their nature are without proof whether true or not. Proof in this case is synonym for poof!

Also I might add proof is for math and logical arguments, and logical arguments aren't necessarily true.
 
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gnostic

The Lost One
Can a belief without proof be true?

it depends on what you mean by “true”.

And it is also depends on how you define ”proof”.

For instance, in everyday usage and in matter of legal terminology, proof and evidence are synonymous, but not so in (natural or physical) science and in mathematics.

In mathematics and in science, the word “proof” is defined as logical statement or logical model, often expressed in math equations or formulas, which often contain combinations of numbers, variables & constants...hence equations or formulas are definitions of mathematical proofs.

Mathematics, such as equations, are useful tools that help with understanding physical & natural phenomena, as parts of the explanation.

To give you some examples Ohm’s Law is a brief statement about the relationship between electric current, voltage & resistance (resistance of conductor), that can be expressed mathematically in an equation:

V = I R​

This equation is proof, not evidence. The equation is abstract & logical model or representation of electricity in a circuitry, hence the equation is proof.

But the science required that all explanations, all predictions, plus all equations must be TESTED, to verify if these equations, predictions & explanations are scientifically true or not. And the only way to test them, are through observations of evidence or through experiments.

No explanations, no predictions and no equations (or no proofs) are true “by default”, until you have evidence or test results of experiments that can verify & validate them. So if built a real circuit board, wiring with some resistors (conductors) together, and apply electricity to the circuitry, you can test the current, voltage & resistance of the resistors, using device called a multimeter.

The readings, the values, from the multimeter are your data. Data are essential components to your observations and to your tests. So the data themselves are also your “evidence“.

Your evidence is the circuitry (board, resistors, wires, and an electric source (eg battery), plus all readings you obtained from the multimeter - those are all your evidence. To check if the equation to Ohm’s Law is correct, you can input the values, eg current and resistance to one of the resistors, and see if the solution V (voltage) match with the voltage from the multimeter. If it match, then the equation is true and it works.

That’s how you verify and validate if the Ohm’s Law is scientifically correct, by testing the equation.

of course, experiments can go wrong, but this can be determined if one of the components are faulty, for examples, the wiring is broken, or the resistor have shorted, or the multimeter is damaged, or perhaps electric source is faulty (eg flat battery). So you would replace the wire, or the resistor or use another multimeter or use another battery. If you have some basic knowledge of circuitry, you should be able diagnose where the fault lies, and fix it, by replacing the multimeter, battery, wire or resistor.

So what would happen if all the evidence and experiments don’t support the explanations or predictions or the equations? That would means your hypothesis is wrong, including whatever equations you have, and that means the proofs are also wrong. And if the equations & explanations are wrong, then your hypothesis have been refuted by the tests.

It is the tests (eg evidence, experiments & data) that determine if the hypothesis is true or false, probable or improbable, verified or refuted.

if the equation or mathematical proof failed the test, then the proof is wrong. The evidence isn’t wrong.

So when you talk of “proof” in science discussions, then you should know that proof is defined as an equation or a formula…so proof is only possible solution that can be wrong, especially if the tests or evidence doesn’t support the equation or proof.

From my experiences, here and other fourms, creationists seemed to confuse proofs with evidence. They are not synonymous in natural sciences or physical sciences.

Getting back to your question, belief is like personal view or personal opinion, belief is highly subjective. It can be true or it can be false.

it is subjective because belief are accepted as being “true” by one’s own conviction. Another word for conviction, is faith. Faith is about trusting your belief, even if the evidence don’t support the belief. That’s the problem with faith-based belief, it relies on one’s own acceptance of what is true…I would call faith by another name - “bias”…or in terms of logic, faith-based belief is essentially “confirmation bias”.

What I find really strange, is that creationists actually commit all types of logical fallacies, eg circular reasoning, argument from ignorance, argument from incredulity, false equivalence (eg using irrelevant analogies, like the infamous Watchmaker analogy with Intelligent Design, when arguing against Evolution), false dilemma, attacking the strawman, moving the goalposts, etc.

Anyway, belief can be true or false, but that’s really depending on the situation, and whether or not such belief can be verified.

For instance, I can believe that my parents love me, I don’t need evidence to support this belief. My belief is true to me.

But if you are talking about belief in something “supernatural”, like belief in god, angel, demon, jinn, spirit, ghost, fairy, afterlife, miracles (eg Jesus turning water into wine), magic, etc…none of these can be tested, and in science, these things are ignored because they cannot be tested. So, I would say no…to anything that are “supernatural“.

Your question is too general and vague, to give you a proper answer.

as I said, it really depends on the situation. Can you be more specific as to what “belief“, you are talking about?
 

Димитар

Прaвославие!
it depends on what you mean by “true”.

And it is also depends on how you define ”proof”.

For instance, in everyday usage and in matter of legal terminology, proof and evidence are synonymous, but not so in (natural or physical) science and in mathematics.

In mathematics and in science, the word “proof” is defined as logical statement or logical model, often expressed in math equations or formulas, which often contain combinations of numbers, variables & constants...hence equations or formulas are definitions of mathematical proofs.

Mathematics, such as equations, are useful tools that help with understanding physical & natural phenomena, as parts of the explanation.

To give you some examples Ohm’s Law is a brief statement about the relationship between electric current, voltage & resistance (resistance of conductor), that can be expressed mathematically in an equation:

V = I R​

This equation is proof, not evidence. The equation is abstract & logical model or representation of electricity in a circuitry, hence the equation is proof.

But the science required that all explanations, all predictions, plus all equations must be TESTED, to verify if these equations, predictions & explanations are scientifically true or not. And the only way to test them, are through observations of evidence or through experiments.

No explanations, no predictions and no equations (or no proofs) are true “by default”, until you have evidence or test results of experiments that can verify & validate them. So if built a real circuit board, wiring with some resistors (conductors) together, and apply electricity to the circuitry, you can test the current, voltage & resistance of the resistors, using device called a multimeter.

The readings, the values, from the multimeter are your data. Data are essential components to your observations and to your tests. So the data themselves are also your “evidence“.

Your evidence is the circuitry (board, resistors, wires, and an electric source (eg battery), plus all readings you obtained from the multimeter - those are all your evidence. To check if the equation to Ohm’s Law is correct, you can input the values, eg current and resistance to one of the resistors, and see if the solution V (voltage) match with the voltage from the multimeter. If it match, then the equation is true and it works.

That’s how you verify and validate if the Ohm’s Law is scientifically correct, by testing the equation.

of course, experiments can go wrong, but this can be determined if one of the components are faulty, for examples, the wiring is broken, or the resistor have shorted, or the multimeter is damaged, or perhaps electric source is faulty (eg flat battery). So you would replace the wire, or the resistor or use another multimeter or use another battery. If you have some basic knowledge of circuitry, you should be able diagnose where the fault lies, and fix it, by replacing the multimeter, battery, wire or resistor.

So what would happen if all the evidence and experiments don’t support the explanations or predictions or the equations? That would means your hypothesis is wrong, including whatever equations you have, and that means the proofs are also wrong. And if the equations & explanations are wrong, then your hypothesis have been refuted by the tests.

It is the tests (eg evidence, experiments & data) that determine if the hypothesis is true or false, probable or improbable, verified or refuted.

if the equation or mathematical proof failed the test, then the proof is wrong. The evidence isn’t wrong.

So when you talk of “proof” in science discussions, then you should know that proof is defined as an equation or a formula…so proof is only possible solution that can be wrong, especially if the tests or evidence doesn’t support the equation or proof.

From my experiences, here and other fourms, creationists seemed to confuse proofs with evidence. They are not synonymous in natural sciences or physical sciences.

Getting back to your question, belief is like personal view or personal opinion, belief is highly subjective. It can be true or it can be false.

it is subjective because belief are accepted as being “true” by one’s own conviction. Another word for conviction, is faith. Faith is about trusting your belief, even if the evidence don’t support the belief. That’s the problem with faith-based belief, it relies on one’s own acceptance of what is true…I would call faith by another name - “bias”…or in terms of logic, faith-based belief is essentially “confirmation bias”.

What I find really strange, is that creationists actually commit all types of logical fallacies, eg circular reasoning, argument from ignorance, argument from incredulity, false equivalence (eg using irrelevant analogies, like the infamous Watchmaker analogy with Intelligent Design, when arguing against Evolution), false dilemma, attacking the strawman, moving the goalposts, etc.

Anyway, belief can be true or false, but that’s really depending on the situation, and whether or not such belief can be verified.

For instance, I can believe that my parents love me, I don’t need evidence to support this belief. My belief is true to me.

But if you are talking about belief in something “supernatural”, like belief in god, angel, demon, jinn, spirit, ghost, fairy, afterlife, miracles (eg Jesus turning water into wine), magic, etc…none of these can be tested, and in science, these things are ignored because they cannot be tested. So, I would say no…to anything that are “supernatural“.

Your question is too general and vague, to give you a proper answer.

as I said, it really depends on the situation. Can you be more specific as to what “belief“, you are talking about?
Naah , i will rather learn more and come back here.

You had some points.
Thank you
 

Astrophile

Active Member
I do believe there are some issues involved in your responses concerning science and dating methods, before we go to far a field from the subject of the thread and some of the misinformation in your statements.

Science has nothing to do with proof, or the existence 'truth?' Science has nothing to do with the 100% of anything.

You referred to scientism, which is a bogus insult to science. Let's deal with science as science.

Where does statements like intellectual 'poison' have anything to do with this thread?

You equated atheism with aspects of science. Bogus insult to both science and atheism. Religious belief or non-belief has nothing to do with real science. Science only deals with the physical nature of our existence.

The point of the thread was your objections to radiometric dating and other dating methods. The documented references addressed that and you sort of dodged the issue. The dating methods have documented humans have been around for more than 300,000 years, and evolved from a lineage of primates. Life evolved over a period of about 3.8 million years. The earth is ~4.7 million years old and the universe is ~13,7 years old.

Have the references addressed your questions concerning radiometric and other dating methods?
Life has evolved over a period of about 3.8 billion years, the Earth is ~4.7 billion years old, and the universe is ~13.7 billion years old.
 

Astrophile

Active Member
Life has evolved over a period of about 3.8 billion years, the Earth is ~4.7 billion years old, and the universe is ~13.7 billion years old.
It would have been more accurate to say that the Earth is ~4540±20 million years old, the solar system (including the Sun) is ~4570 million years old, and the universe is ~13.8 billion years old.
 

Astrophile

Active Member
Finally , we agree


Let's put atheism aside.
I am always for consensus when it is reasoned.


This is not the first time that you interprete what i claim.
Please avoid to use that further.

I accept that Science does not deal with truth.


The definition of faith:
"Strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof."


Then it is more clear to me that you don't understand my critic.
I don't reject how Science operates.


I do not have problem with that.
I never claimed that i understand science any different from how you understand it.


I don't argue the methods that you use , i argue the accuracy of the methods.


Again , you interpete claims in my name.


What of : My belief is based on faith , do you not understand?
You want me to refute what i say by definition?


I won't take your advice , i am sorry.
I have a reason for that.
It has to do with how you interpete the Bible.
It says to me that you don't value evidence with the same standard.
I don't see consensus here.


We will speak about it , i just could't help myself answering the challange.
I have notes on my laptop , as i said you will get your answers when i go back home and re-study everything.I am still in my homeland

But i don't mind discussing it.

I don't mind if i am wrong , but as i said that does not answer one of the most important questions for us as individuals.
It does not explain Human Genesis.


Where does dating methods leads to?
Tell me that
I tried to open 'Truth' with you in the way that you decide , but you avoid that.Why?




The mind is the consceous product of evolution , and you reject that? Why ?
You reject that the mind is capable of defining by definition.
Is any of this relevant to the scientific methods of dating fossils and rock formations?
 
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