Dating Preferences: Bigotry or a Right?

[McBell]

In another thread, the issue of dating preferences came up, and some posts stated that a heterosexual man's refusal to date a transgendered person because the latter has a penis is transphobic. Since I'm open to reconsidering my positions in light of reasoned arguments, I would like to hear others' thoughts on this.

Is having dating preferences such as the above a form of bigotry or a right?

Please discuss.

I cannot vote on a false dichotomy.

Fact of the matter is that although it CAN be bigotry, it may well be lack of interest.

I wonder Who is going to claim that my not being attracted to men makes me a sexist?

AOSN:
When did bigotry stop being a right?

 

[Acim]

In another thread, the issue of dating preferences came up, and some posts stated that a heterosexual man's refusal to date a transgendered person because the latter has a penis is transphobic. Since I'm open to reconsidering my positions in light of reasoned arguments, I would like to hear others' thoughts on this.

Is having dating preferences such as the above a form of bigotry or a right?

Please discuss.

The way the highlighted portion is written, it is not an assumption open to interpretation as to why the person may or may not be attracted to the transgendered person. It is not lack of interest, or what have you. It is clearly because the person has a penis when the implication was that the heterosexual person thought it was a woman with a vagina.

It is interesting to see how one might argue this as not a form of bigotry. Seems like weaseling out of this would be way for lots of bigoted people to weasel their way out of their bigotry when it is pointed out by others that they are being intolerant.

 

[crossfire]

When it comes to dating, I'm pretty much bigoted against everyone. I make no apologies for this. There may be exceptions, but I'm not searching for any.

Calling me a bigot for turning down a date certainly isn't going to improve anyone's chances for a date, and will only serve to reassure me that I made the correct decision in turning down the date.

I would proudly wear the label of "sexually discriminating bigot" if I had more room in my title for more labels.

[rant] My sexual orientation is "voluntary celibate." If anyone wants to call me a bigot for my sexual orientation, they had better #$%^@ look in the mirror and say that. [/rant]

 

[Debater Slayer]

Because this isn't about me as an individual and I don't appreciate multiple people jumping on me, being rude and asking irrelevant questions of me all at the same time. In that other thread, there were about 5 people doing that to me all at once last night. I don't feel the need to subject myself to that. This thread itself is basically a call out thread to me and I think I know why DS started this whole mess in the first place, but I digress.

If you think stating preferences that you don't agree with is rude, Frank, you will find many, many things "rude." All I did was say I wouldn't date a person with a penis, and you were all over my posts after that. I'm not sure how you expected me to react after accusing me of transphobia and "white knighting"... as well as starting a "hate fest." I mainly defended myself and my view after being on the receiving end of accusations.

I understand that yes, many people are transphobic and rude to tranagendered people, but I have repeatedly supported LGBT rights. I think it's unfair to lump me in with the transphobes and bigots just because I have a personal preference that has to do with a person's body--both their gender and body matter to me.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I think it's very easy to tell somebody like SF to accept that not everyone will want to date him, but based on societal norms that all of us are unaware that we enjoy and benefit from except for non-binary and/or trans people. WE have been rejected before as cis people, but comparing the two is presumptuous IMO.

There is still a lot I have to learn, but I have my daughter to thank because she has a lot of friends who do not fit into the norms of gender identity. It's through her and her friends that I get a better idea of the unique struggles that non-cis people experience. Dating and pair-bonding is a very different kind of struggle for them.

Let me give an example...when a man tells a woman that being groped on a crowded subway is something they have either a) experienced and thought nothing much of, or b) something they WISH would happen to them. Usually these rebuttal occur when women bring up being groped and talking about how it really is a big problem with us, and it's something men don't quite understand.

Telling us that we shouldn't complain about it is similar to what is being offered to SF as the problems he and other non-cis people experience.

If we all had a solution that fit neatly into our current paradigm, I'm sure somebody would have figured it out by now. This is not a simple solution. But I think we can start by understanding the struggle exists.

Thanks for the detailed answer, Heather. I'm going to think about my opinion in light of the above--about how to handle the issue in the future, at least.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I cannot vote on a false dichotomy.

Fact of the matter is that although it CAN be bigotry, it may well be lack of interest.

I wonder Who is going to claim that my not being attracted to men makes me a sexist?

AOSN:
When did bigotry stop being a right?

I explained in an earlier post that in this context, I'm using "right" as an opposite to "bigotry," and vice versa.

 

[Shad]

In another thread, the issue of dating preferences came up, and some posts stated that a heterosexual man's refusal to date a transgendered person because the latter has a penis is transphobic. Since I'm open to reconsidering my positions in light of reasoned arguments, I would like to hear others' thoughts on this.

Is having dating preferences such as the above a form of bigotry or a right?

Please discuss.

The problem is not the right itself but the basis behind different preferences can be based on bigotry, be it cultural, religious, regional, etc. Some of the preferences can be based on practicality. For example a person living in a remote racial/cultural/religious homogeneous town can develop a preference(s) based on this isolation. Only dating European women could be due to the lack on non-European women, the lack of knowledge that there are other types, distance involved, etc.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I understand that yes, many people are transphobic and rude to tranagendered people, but I have repeatedly supported LGBT rights. I think it's unfair to lump me in with the transphobes and bigots just because I have a personal preference that has to do with a person's body--both their gender and body matter to me.

Pat your back for being an "ally" all you want. That doesn't mean you actually know of or understand all the issues. If you were really an "ally", you would've taken a step back and let me explain why I think your view is problematic. You're not trans or gay. You're a straight cis man. Feminists call **** like that "mansplaining". Well, what you were doing is the equivalent of that, but for trans people.

 

[crossfire]

If you think stating preferences that you don't agree with is rude, Frank, you will find many, many things "rude." All I did was say I wouldn't date a person with a penis, and you were all over my posts after that. I'm not sure how you expected me to react after accusing me of transphobia and "white knighting"... as well as starting a "hate fest." I mainly defended myself and my view after being on the receiving end of accusations.

I understand that yes, many people are transphobic and rude to tranagendered people, but I have repeatedly supported LGBT rights. I think it's unfair to lump me in with the transphobes and bigots just because I have a personal preference that has to do with a person's body--both their gender and body matter to me.

You mean you don't like bigoted remarks directed towards you due to your sexual orientation either?

 

[Debater Slayer]

Pat your back for being an "ally" all you want. That doesn't mean you actually know of or understand all the issues. If you were really an "ally", you would've taken a step back and let me explain why I think your view is problematic. You're not trans or gay. You're a straight cis man. Feminists call **** like that "mansplaining". Well, what you were doing is the equivalent of that, but for trans people.

Okay, let's try to work through this. I just hope the endeavor is mutual.

What about not wanting to date a person with a penis is transphobic? I'm completely heterosexual, so the thought of performing sexual acts involving another penis just doesn't turn me on. What makes that transphobic, given that I absolutely recognize the transgendered person's gender but also recognize that bodies matter to me as well?

 

[Debater Slayer]

You mean you don't like bigoted remarks directed towards you due to your sexual orientation either?

What do you mean by "bigoted remarks"?

 

[crossfire]

What do you mean by "bigoted remarks"?

Why, being called a bigot or transphobe because of your sexual orientation of being a heterosexual man who is attracted to heterosexual women!

 

[Debater Slayer]

Why, being called a bigot or transphobe because of your sexual orientation of being attracted towards heterosexual women?

Oh, no, I don't like that.

I'm trying to have the discussion again. Hopefully it will go better this time.

 

[MysticSang'ha]

Thanks for the detailed answer, Heather. I'm going to think about my opinion in light of the above--about how to handle the issue in the future, at least.

Ok.

We cis people get to choose our involvement in this issue because the world is built around normalizing only our day to day experiences. Trans and non-binary people don't get that luxury.

To be clear, my intent is not to speak for Frank himself. I think if there is a more pragmatic solution here, it's to get to know more non-cis people and listen to their stories as a start. Or at least listen without making it about us and whether or not we look bigoted.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Okay, let's try to work through this. I just hope the endeavor is mutual.

What about not wanting to date a person with a penis is transphobic? I'm completely heterosexual, so the thought of performing sexual acts involving another penis just doesn't turn me on. What makes that transphobic, given that I absolutely recognize the transgendered person's gender but also recognize that bodies matter to me as well?

I'm fine with having a mutual discussion over it. But I have things to do, so I'll get back to this in a bit. Later.

 

[Debater Slayer]

I'm fine with having a mutual discussion over it. But I have things to do, so I'll get back to this in a bit. Later.

Cool. See you later.

 

[David1967]

Its simply preference. Bigotry, IMHO, has nothing to do with it. Personally, I am really attracted to beautiful asian women, in fact I married one and we are very happy. That being said I also find beautiful women of every race attractive. So no, its not bigotry, just preference.

 

[Acim]

Okay, let's try to work through this. I just hope the endeavor is mutual.

What about not wanting to date a person with a penis is transphobic? I'm completely heterosexual, so the thought of performing sexual acts involving another penis just doesn't turn me on. What makes that transphobic, given that I absolutely recognize the transgendered person's gender but also recognize that bodies matter to me as well?

I realize this is inquiry is directed to someone in particular, but since it is on open forum.....

For me, the phobic part comes with how ambiguous the 'date' term is. Or even perhaps, how immature one might be with regards to what a date means. I kind of feel like walking through a bunch of scenarios of how that term is plausibly used, but to cut to the chase, it would seem quite reasonable to presume that most dates aren't resulting in mutual exploration of the other person's (or persons') genitalia. Thus, the refusal to date a person because that theoretically could happen does come off as fear based. Let's say during the date a strong kinship was realized, and a mutual attraction based on friendship were desired. The phobic response would preclude this such that any future friend 'dates' would no longer be possible.

I'm also just curious about the idea of not knowing if the person is transgender, and say male and (trans) female are on a date, getting along famously, and male (mostly to himself) is longing for sexual activity with the female. Can't wait for that to occur. Might not happen that date or for next 50 dates and male is (or may be) okay with waiting, taking it slow, but still longing. Getting to know the person better, and liking EVERYTHING about them (her). Then the day comes when genitals are exposed and she has a penis. I am very curious how that works for the person who said, "I refuse to date someone who has a penis." Hypocrisy aside (because they were presumably on 50 dates already with a person who has a penis), I am curious if they would throw it all away, or just the sexual part, because of this information? Would be even more interesting to me if they had made out many times, and the male was expressing to whomever (her, his friends, his family, strangers) that she is by the best person he has ever had the pleasure to kiss. That he is lucky to be able to just kiss her, and that this could be the epitome of their relationship as far as he's concerned. But then the penis thing comes up, and what? The whole kissing thing is now seen as yucky and no longer desired? I'm so abundantly curious how that would work. I think it just would work (as in no longer desired), but it would be based on phobia and form of bigotry. Would be great if there were way to keep that rejection 100% on the person who obviously has the phobia.

There are other items I would be interested in exploring this with heterosexuals but they might be best explored in the Sexuality sub-forum. I dunno. Suffice it to say, I think a woman with a vagina could do things with a heterosexual male that would be akin to her having a penis, and I'm curious how into that a heterosexual male would be, especially if he is intensely attracted to her physically. Could just be her fingers with regards to what I'm getting at.

 

[SomeRandom]

The way the highlighted portion is written, it is not an assumption open to interpretation as to why the person may or may not be attracted to the transgendered person. It is not lack of interest, or what have you. It is clearly because the person has a penis when the implication was that the heterosexual person thought it was a woman with a vagina.

It is interesting to see how one might argue this as not a form of bigotry. Seems like weaseling out of this would be way for lots of bigoted people to weasel their way out of their bigotry when it is pointed out by others that they are being intolerant.

What indicates that a heterosexual man would ever be attracted to a penis in the first place? Regardless of whether or not they thought the person it belonged to was a woman with a vagina? That's part of heterosexuality (specifically heterosexual men.) They by default prefer a vagina. Christ are all gay men misogynists because they vastly prefer dick too?
Might as well label every single sexual orientation, except for pansexuality, as inherently bigoted.

 

[Acim]

What indicates that a heterosexual man would ever be attracted to a penis in the first place? Regardless of whether or not they thought the person it belonged to was a woman with a vagina? That's part of heterosexuality (specifically heterosexual men.) They by default prefer a vagina. Christ are all gay men misogynists because they vastly prefer dick too?
Might as well label every single sexual orientation, except for pansexuality, as inherently bigoted.

LOL, on the last point, but is kinda sorta what is being implied. I think that is actually a point of consideration, though again comes back to how 'dating' is set up.

I wonder how a heterosexual male who is undeniably not attracted to penises is ever able to masturbate? Perhaps they never do?