Dating Preferences: Bigotry or a Right?

[LuisDantas]

This is a very interesting thread.

 

[SomeRandom]

LOL, on the last point, but is kinda sorta what is being implied. I think that is actually a point of consideration, though again comes back to how 'dating' is set up.

I wonder how a heterosexual male who is undeniably not attracted to penises is ever able to masturbate? Perhaps they never do?

So everyone is a bigot? Do they not have a right to still choose whom they want to date?

I mean I don't know if I could date a eunuch. Am I bigot against eunuchs? Or do I simply expect to be satisfied sexually in a specific way that is attractive to me and my orientation? Because sex is often an implied facet in adult romantic relationships. Even if you do workshops to have earth shattering sex without the sex, it's almost a given that certain needs are expected to be met. In fact in my cultural background, sexual satisfaction is part of fulfilling one's duty to their partner. It's a matter of honor and responsibility. It's part of the cultural values of a relationship. It should be noted that there's little "boundaries" as to what constitutes said relationship. Gay straight, swingers, as long as everyone is an adult.
Can that cause specific prejudice when selecting a mate? Sure. But what of the strong biological instinct to procreate? And sexual selection pressures?
It's not like culture is the only thing informing our species of what to look for in a mate. It's one influence, sure. But not the only factor.

Perhaps it's a matter of being hurt at apparently being deceived? A man goes home with a sexy woman, his manliness is certainly at a high for him at the time.
It's not unreasonable for said man to react in a shocked manner at discovering a penis upon his lady friend. Which may cause said man to think he has picked up a man because he is "gay" thus causing a reaction of one of rejection. Or perhaps he is hurt that his prospective partner started dating him either by lying to him (or withholding information, whatever) or upon false pretense.
Now that's not to say a man will not reject a transgender even if said transgender person is completely honest up front.
But it could be a contributing factor in some scenarios.
And again, heterosexuals are not polysexual, nor pansexual. It is harder for them to reconcile their attraction with sexes outside of the binary. That's just how the orientation is.

The same way a heterosexual female not attracted to vaginas masturbate? Since it's already part of your body, I sincerely doubt attraction plays any part in the matter. Your brain is conditioned to expect euphoria when......err stimulating certain parts of the body and typically a heterosexual man would probably be fantasizing about vaginas, not dick. Fetishes notwithstanding. So your brain probably already equates your own genitals with the idea that it can be used to satisfy a sexual urge. It's probably more akin to a tool than anything else.

 

[Revoltingest]

So everyone is a bigot?

I think this requires stretching the application of the word, "bigot", to situations
where it's unexpected & misleading without a great deal of explanation.
So I say that mating choices which discriminate based upon things like age,
appearance, race, religion, fecundity, personality, height, etc are not bigotry.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Dating is a very specific kind of relationship in our culture, because of the expectation of at least the possibility of sex, and perhaps even long-term relationships.

Personally, I never did particularly well at dating...probably because I wasn't just looking for sex, or companionship; I was looking for a relationship, and once a relationship was established, wasn't looking for other people to date/have sex with...

Anyway, I would only ask people on dates that I was interested in having a relationship with--since I'm fairly straight--that would be women. I find some men attractive, but even if I have some sexual desires for men, I choose not to act on them--because I'm more interested in relationships with women.

Now then, while I'm fairly introverted, I do like socializing with friends. That means I will cultivate friendships with people I like, without interest in or expectation of sex. Does it matter what their biological sex, gender, expression or whatever is? No. I have had and do have friends who are heterosexual women whom I have no interest in going to bed with. I have friends who are lesbians, whom I have no interest in going to bed with. I have friends who are gay, whom I have no interest in going to bed with. To my knowledge, I do not currently have any friends who are trans or other categories. I would not care if they were. I have coworkers, and some students, who fall into those categories, as well as the others, but most I have no idea about. It's not relevant to being friends.

What do I do with my friends--which by the way, includes my spouse? Hang out. Go to shows. Go on walks. Go shopping. Have meals. Have drinks. Talk about religion, politics, movies, books, hobbies...seems what a lot of people do on dates. Only I'm not expecting to have sex with anyone but my spouse.

 

[Acim]

So everyone is a bigot? Do they not have a right to still choose whom they want to date?

No to the first question. Yes, to the second.

This thread set up situation where person (heterosexual male) expressed refusal to date someone with a penis. That, I feel is a form of low level bigotry. And really only applicable to this person's sexuality. In this way, I would reckon everyone is in some way bigoted, if pressed on the matter. But I think it is impractical to presume everyone is bigoted.

If a heterosexual males preference is to date women that have vaginas, then that would be enough to state and consistent with the notion of heterosexuality. Why go out of one's way to express refusal type statements other than to set self up for being considered bigoted/phobic?

As others in this thread have noted, you have the right to be bigoted. I kind of don't see the big deal with it, but do think we live in a political reality where it might be wise to check your alleged phobias at the door lest you be accused of being intentionally offensive to persons who are seemingly on a witch hunt for those who may express sexual bigotry / phobias. Seems rather pointless, IMHO.

 

[SomeRandom]

No to the first question. Yes, to the second.

Okay. I will rephrase. Is everyone, excluding actual pansexuals bigoted?

This thread set up situation where person (heterosexual male) expressed refusal to date someone with a penis. That, I feel is a form of low level bigotry. And really only applicable to this person's sexuality. In this way, I would reckon everyone is in some way bigoted, if pressed on the matter. But I think it is impractical to presume everyone is bigoted.

How is it bigotry? It's personal taste. I mean I do not discount prejudice and bigotry informing some people of their personal preferences. But how is saying, you're a heterosexual male who does not find it appealing to date someone with a penis a bigot, not demonizing someone simply because they don't want to date someone with a penis? I am an ally of the cause. Why should that mean that I would want to date anyone in said cause? Do I have to be able to date everyone regardless of sex binary just to prove I am not a bigot?
Am I bigoted against strawberry icecream because I happen to prefer chocolate?
I mean if you stretch the definition of a bigot to such lengths, how does this not serve to soften the word? And such a word, imo, shouldn't be softened. Otherwise what's the use of such a normally reasonably highly charged insult/accusation?

If a heterosexual males preference is to date women that have vaginas, then that would be enough to state and consistent with the notion of heterosexuality. Why go out of one's way to express refusal type statements other than to set self up for being considered bigoted/phobic?

I was merely suggesting that there is nuance and sometimes it can be bigotry. Not always but sometimes. Is that a bad thing to do now?

As others in this thread have noted, you have the right to be bigoted. I kind of don't see the big deal with it, but do think we live in a political reality where it might be wise to check your alleged phobias at the door lest you be accused of being intentionally offensive to persons who are seemingly on a witch hunt for those who may express sexual bigotry / phobias. Seems rather pointless, IMHO.

Or maybe those on the witch hunt should learn to put on their big boy/girl pants and get over themselves? Why should I walk on eggshells for their benefit? Why should anyone do the same for my benefit? Neither of us owns the world.

Sometimes kowtowing to the sensibilities of a certain group of people just makes the situation worse. Equality is one thing. A beautiful thing in fact.
But sometimes you need to stand up to the crybullies or those on the witch hunt and tell them to **** off. Because there's often no amount of back bending you can do that will ever satisfy them for long. It just teaches them that they can do whatever they want, demand whatever they want and not face any reasonable consequences for inconveniencing strangers for their own selfish needs. Community is one of compromise after all.

 

[Sunstone]

It's interesting how sexual preference is so often being conflated with bigotry here.

 

[Acim]

Okay. I will rephrase. Is everyone, excluding actual pansexuals bigoted?

I'm thinking if pressed on certain things, pansexuals could show up as bigoted. Just my opinion. I doubt anyone would be able to escape if all possible doors were opened.

How is it bigotry? It's personal taste. I mean I do not discount prejudice and bigotry informing some people of their personal preferences. But how is saying, you're a heterosexual male who does not find it appealing to date someone with a penis a bigot, not demonizing someone simply because they don't want to date someone with a penis? I am an ally of the cause. Why should that mean that I would want to date anyone in said cause? Do I have to be able to date everyone regardless of sex binary just to prove I am not a bigot?
Am I bigoted against strawberry icecream because I happen to prefer chocolate?

To me, it would be (low level/mild) bigotry if there is some burning desire to express absolute intolerance / refusal for what is not preferable. If just kept to the positive affirmations that match the preference and when pressed on things that might conflict with that, just go with "no comment" and leave it at that. No bigotry could be asserted then, though one may infer it. That be on them.

So, what if the bigotry label applies on this. It strikes me as mild. Anyone wanting to make it more than mild, better have more than mere preferences and simple remarks to back that claim up. I'd be wondering if the person hung up on the bigot label would be willing to admit whether they would ever date a bigot, or person who has expressed (allegedly) bigoted positions? LOL, but may as well go there if the anti-bigots in this discussion are feeling so high and mighty.

 

[Quintessence]

It's interesting how sexual preference is so often being conflated with bigotry here.

I've been sitting and watching this thread with a lot of confusion for this reason.




So... if one is not interested in sex with anyone (aka, asexual), does this make one a "mild" bigot towards everyone? Should I pat myself on the back for being universally bigoted?

 

[Sunstone]

I've been sitting and watching this thread with a lot of confusion for this reason.

Want some of my popcorn?

So... if one is not interested in sex with anyone (aka, asexual), does this make one a "mild" bigot towards everyone? Should I pat myself on the back for being universally bigoted?

I feel very strongly that you're morally obligated to put aside your asexual preference and date everyone and their cousins too! But then, I flunked ethics in college.

 

[SomeRandom]

I'm thinking if pressed on certain things, pansexuals could show up as bigoted. Just my opinion. I doubt anyone would be able to escape if all possible doors were opened.

So................ we are all bigots to a degree then? Kind of makes the word bigot seem rather innocuous then. Like it's just a human thing.

To me, it would be (low level/mild) bigotry if there is some burning desire to express absolute intolerance / refusal for what is not preferable. If just kept to the positive affirmations that match the preference and when pressed on things that might conflict with that, just go with "no comment" and leave it at that. No bigotry could be asserted then, though one may infer it. That be on them.

I don't understand. Does this mean that everyone could technically accuse......well everyone of being a bigot?

So, what if the bigotry label applies on this. It strikes me as mild. Anyone wanting to make it more than mild, better have more than mere preferences and simple remarks to back that claim up. I'd be wondering if the person hung up on the bigot label would be willing to admit whether they would ever date a bigot, or person who has expressed (allegedly) bigoted positions? LOL, but may as well go there if the anti-bigots in this discussion are feeling so high and mighty.

Lol maybe they're/we're bigoted against the word bigot?

 

[Mister Emu]

Trans people are a very misunderstood group by society in general. To even say something to the effect of "a heterosexual man being attracted to a transgender woman negates his heterosexuality" shows how little understanding and acceptance of trans people for who we say we are, how we experience ourselves and live our lives there is.

S. Frankenstein, doesn't everybody deserve to`experience their sexuality and own it, without insults or demeaning language? I don't think you deserve to have insults thrown your way for being transgender or for your sexuality, or Mystic for being bi. Can I not ask the same respect for my sexuality?

Telling us that we shouldn't complain about it is similar to what is being offered to SF as the problems he and other non-cis people experience.

I think it is terribly unfair to compare not being romantically attracted to someone with sexual assault.

It's interesting how sexual preference is so often being conflated with bigotry here.

I think I'd use a stronger word than interesting.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Growing up (and I think it was an Archie Bunkerism, too), I heard many people say they weren't bigots because they disliked everyone equally.

Always thought that was a stupid thing to say. Most of them were really racist @$$#o!e$.

 

[Smart_Guy]

I don't think it is bigotry to have specific preferences in who to date. I, for example, prefer more fair skinned women than myself. If that is bigotry, it would be bigotry against myself and people like me!!(?) It's just a preference coming from our naturally given instincts, feelings and emotions. It feels like when considering ourselves male/female and getting called bigots against the gender opposite to our own. Emotions like love (being part of wanting to date) don't know bigotry since they push us to want what we want without the interference of our minds and acquired (vs. innate) understandings.

Because this isn't about me as an individual and I don't appreciate multiple people jumping on me, being rude and asking irrelevant questions of me all at the same time. In that other thread, there were about 5 people doing that to me all at once last night. I don't feel the need to subject myself to that. This thread itself is basically a call out thread to me and I think I know why DS started this whole mess in the first place, but I digress.

Frank, I don't know what happened in the other thread, but I know for sure that BC and DS care for you. I think all they are doing is presenting their views and arguments to share it with you and the rest of the members.

 

[Acim]

So................ we are all bigots to a degree then? Kind of makes the word bigot seem rather innocuous then. Like it's just a human thing.

Feel like I already spoke to this. I think it is impractical to presume everyone is.

I don't understand. Does this mean that everyone could technically accuse......well everyone of being a bigot?

They could, but in this thread, we are given specific language.

Let's say in OP, it instead said: a man's refusal to date an African American person, is this a right or a form of bigotry?

Curious how the people who are having issues in understanding bigotry might reply.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Okay, let's try to work through this. I just hope the endeavor is mutual.

What about not wanting to date a person with a penis is transphobic? I'm completely heterosexual, so the thought of performing sexual acts involving another penis just doesn't turn me on. What makes that transphobic, given that I absolutely recognize the transgendered person's gender but also recognize that bodies matter to me as well?

It's not so much not being attracted to a penis itself, it more the assumptions that seem to be wrapped up into it, especially how language is used. There seems to be an implicit assumption that heterosexuality really boils down to being attracted to genitals. So a heterosexual man is a male who is attracted to a person with an XX body or a woman with a vagina. This goes back to what @Laika and I were talking about in terms of society. Not only Western, but also Islamic Middle Eastern societies (it's because of the worldview of the Abrahamic religions as a whole) tend to view gender/sex as a binary. Trans people as well as intersex people are excluded from that view of gender. When we appear, people who hold that view simply don't know where to put us. Since we don't make sense to them, they tend to think we're just an extreme version of gay men or lesbians, that we're cross dressers, that our bodies after hormone therapy and/or surgery are essentially still the same as the cisgender members of our chromosomal sex (for example, that a trans woman is essentially a really feminine man who views and uses their body essentially the same as a cis man), etc.

Anyway, this group of assumptions basically ignores who we are, how we identify, how we live, how we experience our bodies and the vast diversity of sexual attractions, forms of sex, etc. For example, one comment I saw said that they (as a straight woman) wouldn't be into a trans guy with a vagina because that would be having "lesbian" sex. So we see that that person is erasing the identity and perspective of the trans man and also holding a harsh binary view of sex. What is "lesbian sex", anyway? What is "gay sex"? It's sex that involves at least two women or two men, respectively. It really doesn't have anything to do with specific sexual acts because, let's face it, there are no sexual acts that are exclusive to any sexual orientation or gender pairing. Heterosexuals have anal sex, oral sex, a lot of straight men enjoy receiving anal play, etc, etc. Straight couples use sex toys and so on.

So, when people say things like that, the only conclusion is that they really don't see trans people as who we say we are. As a trans man, when I have sex with a woman, it's not lesbian sex. Why? Because I'm not a woman.

Truthfully, male and female bodies aren't all that different. They're basically variations of the same general things. A penis is really an overgrown clitoris, testicles are external ovaries, etc. and vice versa. The vagina almost seems like an evolutionary afterthought when it comes to sex because it's not even the center of female sexual pleasure (the clitoris is; although vaginal penetration can be great if you do it correctly, same with anal).

Now, since we are deeply social animals and society sends us many messages and sets our assumptions to a large part from a very early age, we all do tend to internalize all these things, especially subconsciously. So a person may not be consciously bigoted towards trans people (or people of other races/ethnicities, etc.) but subconsciously those assumptions may still be embedded and influence our attractions and how we behave. After all, sexual orientation itself is a social construct. "Gay", "straight", "lesbian", "bisexual", "pansexual", "queer", etc. are all social identities, not objective realities.

People feel a need to maintain some sort of loyalty to their designated sexual social identity and so they will repress and go out of their way to hide their actual behavior when it goes outside of some arbitrary boundary of said identity. That's why you have the very common phenomenon of "down low" where self-identified straight men partake in sexual acts with other men. Tons of straight men also have a deep attraction and even obsession with trans women. Pornography featuring trans women is probably primarily consumed by straight men (most of it is made for them). Many of these men will have sex with a trans woman but not date or form a long-term relationship with them because of the social stigma. Again, they don't want to be seen as "gay". (Gay people even do the same with their own percieved need to uphold loyalty to an identity and stay within arbitrary socio-sexual boundaries, which causes them to have similar issues with trans people).

Basically, people really need to examine these things, learn about the social contexts of them and look at where they're getting their messages about sex, attractiveness, bodies, etc. from. It's good to keep in mind how arbitrary all this stuff is. Genitals are mostly the same, just in different shapes. It's very important to realize that everyone is in individual and no two people have the same sexual tastes. One cis woman who is straight may love one thing and another may hate it. There's straight cis women who do not like being vaginally penetrated at all, for example.

 

[ADigitalArtist]

It's not so much not being attracted to a penis itself, it more the assumptions that seem to be wrapped up into it, especially how language is used. There seems to be an implicit assumption that heterosexuality really boils down to being attracted to genitals. So a heterosexual man is a male who is attracted to a person with an XX body or a woman with a vagina. This goes back to what @Laika and I were talking about in terms of society. Not only Western, but also Islamic Middle Eastern societies (it's because of the worldview of the Abrahamic religions as a whole) tend to view gender/sex as a binary. Trans people as well as intersex people are excluded from that view of gender. When we appear, people who hold that view simply don't know where to put us. Since we don't make sense to them, they tend to think we're just an extreme version of gay men or lesbians, that we're cross dressers, that our bodies after hormone therapy and/or surgery are essentially still the same as the cisgender members of our chromosomal sex (for example, that a trans woman is essentially a really feminine man who views and uses their body essentially the same as a cis man), etc.

Anyway, this group of assumptions basically ignores who we are, how we identify, how we live, how we experience our bodies and the vast diversity of sexual attractions, forms of sex, etc. For example, one comment I saw said that they (as a straight woman) wouldn't be into a trans guy with a vagina because that would be having "lesbian" sex. So we see that that person is erasing the identity and perspective of the trans man and also holding a harsh binary view of sex. What is "lesbian sex", anyway? What is "gay sex"? It's sex that involves at least two women or two men, respectively. It really doesn't have anything to do with specific sexual acts because, let's face it, there are no sexual acts that are exclusive to any sexual orientation or gender pairing. Heterosexuals have anal sex, oral sex, a lot of straight men enjoy receiving anal play, etc, etc. Straight couples use sex toys and so on.

So, when people say things like that, the only conclusion is that they really don't see trans people as who we say we are. As a trans man, when I have sex with a woman, it's not lesbian sex. Why? Because I'm not a woman.

Truthfully, male and female bodies aren't all that different. They're basically variations of the same general things. A penis is really an overgrown clitoris, testicles are external ovaries, etc. and vice versa. The vagina almost seems like an evolutionary afterthought when it comes to sex because it's not even the center of female sexual pleasure (the clitoris is; although vaginal penetration can be great if you do it correctly, same with anal).

Now, since we are deeply social animals and society sends us many messages and sets our assumptions to a large part from a very early age, we all do tend to internalize all these things, especially subconsciously. So a person may not be consciously bigoted towards trans people (or people of other races/ethnicities, etc.) but subconsciously those assumptions may still be embedded and influence our attractions and how we behave. After all, sexual orientation itself is a social construct. "Gay", "straight", "lesbian", "bisexual", "pansexual", "queer", etc. are all social identities, not objective realities.

People feel a need to maintain some sort of loyalty to their designated sexual social identity and so they will repress and go out of their way to hide their actual behavior when it goes outside of some arbitrary boundary of said identity. That's why you have the very common phenomenon of "down low" where self-identified straight men partake in sexual acts with other men. Tons of straight men also have a deep attraction and even obsession with trans women. Pornography featuring trans women is probably primarily consumed by straight men (most of it is made for them). Many of these men will have sex with a trans woman but not date or form a long-term relationship with them because of the social stigma. Again, they don't want to be seen as "gay". (Gay people even do the same with their own percieved need to uphold loyalty to an identity and stay within arbitrary socio-sexual boundaries, which causes them to have similar issues with trans people).

Basically, people really need to examine these things, learn about the social contexts of them and look at where they're getting their messages about sex, attractiveness, bodies, etc. from. It's good to keep in mind how arbitrary all this stuff is. Genitals are mostly the same, just in different shapes. It's very important to realize that everyone is in individual and no two people have the same sexual tastes. One cis woman who is straight may love one thing and another may hate it. There's straight cis women who do not like being vaginally penetrated at all, for example.

I might be that commenter you mentioned. Although I didn't mention anything about lesbian sex so it might not be.
Personally (and I apologize to anyone who might feel like this is TMI territory) I don't like toys or anal play. I like the feel of penile penetration and that feeling of physical connection I don't get through toy penetration. This, to me, isn't a statement on gender identity, but a statement on what I activities I feel give me the most sexual fulfillment. And sure, finger stimulation is great too, but I feel like I want the particular sexual act that requires a penis and a vagina in my life and I just won't get that with a sexual relationship with someone who doesn't have a penis. So that is what I will seek in a sexual partner.
I don't feel like I can 'fake it until I make it' with other types of sexual activities I just don't enjoy. I'm not knocking them for other people, but it's just not a desire I share.

Mind you this is strictly about sexual partners. Not relationships as a whole which are much bigger than (and doesn't necessarily include) the sexual component.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Telling us that we shouldn't complain about it is similar to what is being offered to SF as the problems he and other non-cis people experience.

I suppose one way of putting it is that it is another layer of non-acceptance.

Not only Western, but also Islamic Middle Eastern societies (it's because of the worldview of the Abrahamic religions as a whole) tend to view gender/sex as a binary. Trans people as well as intersex people are excluded from that view of gender.

Actually, I would have to say that Islamic Middle Eastern cultures, overall, have provided more tolerance for effeminacy and even transsexuals than what Christian Europe/America has. Of all the places ****ing IRAN is ranked number 2 in countries that do the most sex-change operations - the country that will literally kill people for them being homosexual and lacks many laws that we consider necessary for civilized society, and yet they are more tolerant of transsexuals and only best by Thailand in number of operations performed. It's unfortunate as to why, which is because they encourage that one partner involved in a same-sex coupling get it to avoid the anti-homosexual laws, but it's absolutely mind blowing that here in the "liberal" and "tolerant" West, Iranians do not, legally or spiritually, consider someone who has changed sexes to be of their birth sex, and do not consider the acts between a cis-gendered and transsexual couple to be homosexual, and here in America it weirds people out, makes them laugh, shudder, cringe, and "offer sympathy" to those who "didn't know."
It just blows my mind, actually offends me on a deep level, that people who would say "be yourself" and "be the person that you are" so very often have negative reactions in regards to transsexuals (granted I do live in a Conservative area, so it's bound to be worse here, but still), but yet people who are legally bound to strict religious laws, religious laws that come from a similar cultural setting that gave us Judaism, which inspired the Bible, and would both inspire Islam, people who will be killed over having a same-sex relation, some over there who has physically changed their sex is legally and religiously accepted as their new sex. And it's known that in such a place, being "who you are on the inside" can get you killed.

 

[Parsimony]

Even if it could somehow be argued as bigotry, I guess that would only mean that not all bigotry is bad. Why should anyone be made to feel bad about not being attracted to another particular person?

 

[SomeRandom]

Feel like I already spoke to this. I think it is impractical to presume everyone is.

So why then is there a presumption that a heterosexual man who rejects a person with a penis is a bigot?

They could, but in this thread, we are given specific language.

That sexual orientation might be a form of mild bigotry? That's the only language I have noticed so far. As well as contending arguments, obviously.

Let's say in OP, it instead said: a man's refusal to date an African American person, is this a right or a form of bigotry?

A right. Possible bigotry. But I don't think it's right to assume that someone who does this is doing so out of bigotry. Maybe they were raped by a person who just so happened to be African american? Like it or not, that psychological scaring incident could affect who they want to date. Or they just happen to prefer I don't know, Japanese people. Must even our personal taste with prospective partners be bigotry? Is everything in this world some form of bigotry?
I mean that's what it's sounding like more and more in today's political climate. What's more ironic to me is that we focus so much on validating the feelings of everyone (which is fair enough) but then turn around and label even those allied with equality as "bigoted" for having certain personal feelings. Like which is it? Are we supposed to respect trigger warnings of everyone traumatized? Or are we to brush aside said triggers of a traumatized person if they happen to involve a roundabout way of technically being a little bit "racist?"