Death and rebirth

[Unveiled Artist]

Ive heard it debated whether The Buddha taught after enlightenment, one dies. They have no rebirth (and no heaven and no god/Brahma) I think its called nihilism. I found that we will die and that will be it.

How do you view death in light of the Dharma? Be a bit specific for convo sake.

Here is why I see death as it


Being subject themselves to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeking the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, unexcelled rest from the yoke, Unbinding, they reached the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Knowledge & vision arose in them: 'Unprovoked is our release.

This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'
Ariyapariyesana Sutta: The Noble Search

The Buddha does describe elightenment as heaven but never to be mixed with abrahamic views.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Ive heard it debated whether The Buddha taught after enlightenment, one dies. They have no rebirth (and no heaven and no god/Brahma) I think its called nihilism. I found that we will die and that will be it.

How do you view death in light of the Dharma? Be a bit specific for convo sake.

Here is why I see death as it


Being subject themselves to aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeing the drawbacks of aging... illness... death... sorrow... defilement, seeking the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, unexcelled rest from the yoke, Unbinding, they reached the aging-less, illness-less, deathless, sorrow-less, unexcelled rest from the yoke: Unbinding. Knowledge & vision arose in them: 'Unprovoked is our release.

This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'
Ariyapariyesana Sutta: The Noble Search

The Buddha does describe elightenment as heaven but never to be mixed with abrahamic views.

I personally think reincarnation and rebirth is something that monks put together after Buddha's death. Though I ascribe to a form of "rebirth" it's really not an aspect of Buddhism as far as I'm concerned.

There really is no such thing as "birth or death" nor continuation of any sort where reincarnation or rebirth would fit in as such concepts applies to rising and falling of form for which form itself is not separate from what gave rise to form.

We just have a pension for dualism because it's easier to intellectually understand things when they are categorized and compartmentalized.

Maybe that's where the saying, Changeless change comes from.

 

[Vinayaka]

I think we have to look at just who or what is being reborn, or has an afterlife. That can cause confusion. In the Abrahamic view (certainly some of them, I'm not familiar with them all) it is the person, name, ego, physical body and more. In dharmic faiths, if there is any reincarnation, or rebirth, it most certainly isn't that. It's the soul, or energy, or atman, and for the vast majority of people, it's a vague concept, hard to get any real intellectual grasp on. It's intuitive at best. Because of maya, we fall back on the 'what we know' or, the ego. When an enlightened being uses 'I' he's not referring to the ego at all. So living 'out here' in the external realms, forgetting who we really are, there is plenty of misconception, and trying to relate to how the Buddha saw it is nigh impossible anyway.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I think we have to look at just who or what is being reborn, or has an afterlife. That can cause confusion. In the Abrahamic view (certainly some of them, I'm not familiar with them all) it is the person, name, ego, physical body and more. In dharmic faiths, if there is any reincarnation, or rebirth, it most certainly isn't that. It's the soul, or energy, or atman, and for the vast majority of people, it's a vague concept, hard to get any real intellectual grasp on. It's intuitive at best. Because of maya, we fall back on the 'what we know' or, the ego. When an enlightened being uses 'I' he's not referring to the ego at all. So living 'out here' in the external realms, forgetting who we really are, there is plenty of misconception, and trying to relate to how the Buddha saw it is nigh impossible anyway.

Yeah. True. In abrahamic-book religions they don't like vagueness in "truth." If you don't Know/knowledge you don't have godly insight. Since I live here its easy to tangle native faiths with foreign. We have seen the conflict that arises in that unfortunately.

The Buddha does talk about what you said. He uses the analogy of someone shot by an arrow. The victim asked The Buddha why he is shot. How did this happen. Who did it.

The Buddha replied in so many words: stop asking questions and take out the arrow first!

Other times he just avoided the death question altogether.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I personally think reincarnation and rebirth is something that monks put together after Buddha's death. Though I ascribe to a form of "rebirth" it's really not an aspect of Buddhism as far as I'm concerned.

Hmm.

There really is no such thing as "birth or death" nor continuation of any sort where reincarnation or rebirth would fit in as such concepts applies to rising and falling of form for which form itself is not separate from what gave rise to form.

Hmm. Different interpretation I've not heard before.

We just have a pension for dualism because it's easier to intellectually understand things when they are categorized and compartmentalized.

I never heard of dualism in The Dharma, do explain.

Maybe that's where the saying, Changeless change comes from

Haven't heard that phrase. Mental note.

 

[Vinayaka]

The victim asked The Buddha why he is shot. How did this happen. Who did it.

The Buddha replied in so many words: stop asking questions and take out the arrow first!

Certainly that indicates an identification of who we are with the physical body. But that's so common. How often do we say, "I have a cold," or "I don't feel well." or "He/she died." We' are not physical bodies, yet our language programs that over and over and over again. It would be like eating nothing but apples, having never heard of an orange, yet trying to convince yourself it's an orange.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Certainly that indicates an identification of who we are with the physical body. But that's so common. How often do we say, "I have a cold," or "I don't feel well." or "He/she died." We' are not physical bodies, yet our language programs that over and over and over again. It would be like eating nothing but apples, having never heard of an orange, yet trying to convince yourself it's an orange.

That's a fresh interpretation of that story. I related it to the victim looks for unecesary answers to life without understanding and relieving suffering first. Don't ask the meaning behind no suffering until you relieve yourself of suffering so your mind can address what it needs to without attachment to moral questions distracting you.

Its kinda hard because he uses a lot of terminology in both Hindu and his own views but I wouldn't assume he changed the meaning. That makes me wonder how he says one thing, Hinduism teachers another, but some of the same Indian terminology is used. Unless he changed the meaning to reflect The Dharma.

 

[Aupmanyav]

It is really quite simple. Simple folks believe in 'soul', birth and death, judgement by Yama (the God in-charge of that function), stays in heaven and hell (separate for each good or bad action, never consolidated), and the return for improving their karmic balance sheet.

Advaita (non-dual) at a deeper level denies all this (soul, birth, death, judgment, even creation) and takes them as illusion, ignorance, 'maya'. 'Brahma satyam, jagan mithya ..' (Brahman is truth, the world is false ..), so said the first Sankarcharya.

One shoe does not fit all.

 

[Srivijaya]

There really is no such thing as "birth or death" nor continuation of any sort where reincarnation or rebirth would fit in as such concepts applies to rising and falling of form for which form itself is not separate from what gave rise to form.

We just have a pension for dualism because it's easier to intellectually understand things when they are categorized and compartmentalized.

This.

The question of rebirth is predicated on a linear, dualistic interpretation of our experience.

If you see the Heart Sutra as pointing at non-dualism rather than at a metaphysical 'emptiness-as ultimate-state', it makes more sense:

"In emptiness (non-duality) there is no form, nor feeling, nor perception, nor impulse, nor consciousness; No eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, mind; No forms, sounds, smells, tastes, touchables or objects of mind; No sight-organ element, and so forth, until we come to: No mind-consciousness element; There is no ignorance, no extinction of ignorance, and so forth, until we come to: there is no decay and death, no extinction of decay and death. There is no suffering, no origination, no stopping, no path. There is no cognition, no attainment and non-attainment."

I think nirvana is non-dual beyond all categories (including nihilistic ones).

Desire impels dualism and 'existence' can only be realised within a dualistic arena.

 

[Nicholas]

Do not recall the exact suttas/sutras offhand, but the ending of automatic rebirth is only for buddhas or high bodhisattvas. There are levels or stages of bodhi, even those with only seven or three rebirths to go before buddhahood still have to be reborn. For plain folks rebirths are almost countless.

 

[ajay0]

Enlightenment is the destruction of all karmic imprints or psychological impressions and tendencies that create the sense of a false personal self with its cravings and aversions, compulsive grooved thinking and emotions.

It is these impressions or vasanas created by egocentric thought and actions that perpetuates as a continuum, attracting corresponding situations and circumstances, till it is destroyed by spiritual exercises and mindfulness.

 

[Nicholas]

The depths & levels of enlightenment or Bodhi are many. Here is a good chart (4 pages) of the Path toward Buddhahood:

https://www.wholesomevision.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/The-Two-Paths-English.pdf

 

[Twilight Hue]

Do not recall the exact suttas/sutras offhand, but the ending of automatic rebirth is only for buddhas or high bodhisattvas. There are levels or stages of bodhi, even those with only seven or three rebirths to go before buddhahood still have to be reborn. For plain folks rebirths are almost countless.

I would love to know where all of these ideas comes from. I'm thinking Hinduism.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Enlightenment is the destruction of all karmic imprints or psychological impressions and tendencies that create the sense of a false personal self with its cravings and aversions, compulsive grooved thinking and emotions.

It is these impressions or vasanas created by egocentric thought and actions that perpetuates as a continuum, attracting corresponding situations and circumstances, till it is destroyed by spiritual exercises and mindfulness.

I sincerely wonder how long that will last?

I tend to view things in terms of emptiness.

 

[Nicholas]

I would love to know where all of these ideas comes from. I'm thinking Hinduism.

Nope - from Mahayana Buddhism

 

[Twilight Hue]

Nope - from Mahayana Buddhism

Definitely not Mahayana Zen.

 

[Nicholas]

Definitely not Mahayana Zen.

Be specific, what Chan or Zen teachings deny the bodhisattva path & practices.

 

[Twilight Hue]

Be specific, what Chan or Zen teachings deny the bodhisattva path & practices.

I'm talking about all the nonsense that entails supernatural baggage and belief.

 

[Nicholas]

I'm talking about all the nonsense that entails supernatural baggage and belief.

Such as...?

 

[Twilight Hue]

Such as...?

Let's see things like Cosmic scorecards and deities floating around, being somehow able to tabulate rebirth.
( Death and rebirth )

That sort of thing.